330+ cfm @ 0.650"+ lift. You already know this, you're one of the people who doubted my numbers because they weren't "possible".

They aren't conversions. They were new castings made by AFR, which are now available as a standard part number. No one was converting heads at that point in time, or at least not talking about it, and without the benefit of foresight, we decided to stay with a 23-degree head to eliminate the need for custom headers.

I have a Hogan's sheet metal intake. The intake runners were opened up to gasket size and the heads were then sent to Hogan's for the fabrication of the intake.

The engine is going into a street car, not a drag car. The bare castings were opened up to about 212-213cc on the intake. They're actually relatively "small" heads, for the numbers they produce.

Lightweight valves have benefits regardless of whether the engine sees 7,500+ rpm or not. Were they absolutely necessary? No, but neither was a lot of what went into this engine.

Perhaps. Depends on your budget.

The money was burning a hole in my pocket.

Unless you simply want the strongest and lightest components available and money isn't an object.

RaceLogic traction control.

Bret, I've put up with your know-it-all crap for awhile now, but if you continue to push, we'll have to start discussing how many engines you've actually built, whether your "shop" is just a garage, whether or not all your knowledge comes from dadddy, Desktop Dyno, or back-issues of Car Craft, and how much more mileage you could possibly try to squeeze out of a DNF in the Engine Masters competition. Not to mention the fact that I find it highly unlikely that a legitimate shop would have the need to qualify themselves with a statement like "There is also a 1996 Imp and a 1997 C5 affiliated with the shop"...

 

Play nice boys...

 

Jim,

Honestly to take your bait is a dump thing to do. Think what you want. It was late and I had a bug up my ***. If you think I posted that and didn't expect some sort of backlash from you, that's a joke. I'm not saying I'm a know it all, if you take it as that, good. It's sad someone can't critique a engine. A large part of my college was done critiqing work of my own and others. If you can't take it, grow up. I'm sorry this is not LT1tech and I'm not ooing and ahing all over your engine, it's nothing I haven't seen.

Are you tring to tell me that "my budget" is not in your league? Seems so to me because the only insight you have given us in this thread is on $ related issues. That's wonderfull, I wish I had a eliteist attitude and had money to burn on useless parts, the reality is 99% of ones customers don't, so a smart design puts the money where it belongs. That was Old SStrokers point. You might listen to him sometimes too, it's funny what 35+ years of engineering experience can solve. On the other hand, if you had a relationship with someone of his knowledge base the LT1 would have never been the starting point of that engine of yours. (yes that was a dig.)

I only qualify the shop to people like you. Obviously I go about it the wrong way. I use the Engine Masters to take examples from since the design from the begining was ment to be public. I only bring it up to answer questions on it. Since it's public knowledge i don't have a problem talking about it, the rest of my designs are intellectual property, to see them you have to pay for it. How long are you going to get miliage from this overly expensive 396 anyways?

I screwed up, I can admit my faults. I've yet to see you do it.

If you want to talk smack, go for it. At least I don't stoop to the personal level, I just obviously hit you where it hurts. Your pride. That engine is pretty bas *** I've said that before. That's the last compliment I'm going to give.

I'm done.

BTW what does any of this have to do with Rods?

Bret

 

Funny I was thinking the same thing.

 

What does this have to do with rods?

Who cares?

Most of these threads morph into something else after all the questions are answered anyways..... from "header building" to the theory of Tri-Y header designs. That's a recent one but the point is, if it's still technical who cares.
As for argueing, I don't see anyone getting physically hurt here and that freedom of speech thing is a mother. And yes, it's still relevent on message boards regardless.

A few things:

The Cola COSU series cranks Bret refered to are actually in the ~$2400 range. No cheap way out there..... LAE makes some too, but they're in the same range.... as are Bryant, Crower etc.. Ask me how I know.

I honestly don't care what Jim spent on his engine and neither should anyone else. I can't say that I'm jealous either... wel I can but I aint gonna put him down for it. If he wants to spend $100k then that's his business. It doesn't take away from the fact that it's one bad *** street motor.
Hell, if you even talk about converting heads or building stuff a little out of the norm around here, people think you are being an elitist. Either that or they put the effort down.... "Waste of time... waste of money, etc." Everyone's an expert yet no one here, as far as I can tell, has really ever put their own money on the line, run the NHRA IHRA circuits (whatever you like)... ie., put their money where their mouth is. Just talk and theory which is ok too.... take it as it comes but I aint putting much weight into responses from those who haven't been there.

Bottom line, if you can build something similar, then do it. Let's see it, cause talk is cheap. Everyone wants to be respected... every engine builder wants people to praise his work and speak his name at the strip or local country club. The only way you get there is by setting a mark. Not through talk but through results.
Not to pick at anyone but having owned a very successful business, I can tell you that becoming a success means having something over on the competition. Education, savy, whatever... you have to have results that speak for themselves.
Let's see some results. Pick your forte... drag racing, ARCA, whatever and win some championships. That's what guys like Reher, Kasse, Bischoff, Leonard did and are doing. No smack talk, just results. These guys have nothing to prove so you probably won't see them at some of these "for all" contests. Want to compete? Then meet them on their terms. I think I can beat Pete Sampras in a tennis match, but I doubt he'll be coming to the local club because I said so. I'll likely need to get on the circuit to have that chance.
Results
That right there will guarantee you more work than you could fathom. The guys I mentioned have worked lined up at their door all year long.
Maybe Chuck R can chime in on that one.

So now we're more R&D than anything else? Yet you don't develop cylinder heads? Do you have a flowbench? A dyno? Modeling and design software? Wave motion and simulation software? Not EA Pro... that's not what the big guys around here use.

If you don't know that a 15* head won't allow the use of a hydraulic roller cam then you aint there. BD 2000, 12x12RR..... let's take little steps first.
I play games too... hence the screename.

As for engineers. They get beat at the strip too... then again some win from time to time. Doesn't automatically mean you know everything. I hold a couple of degrees... has never automatically meant anything for me. "Engineer" is a broad field. Take a chemical engineer... does he/she know race engines because he/she can read theory and extrapolate ideas from it?

Real world experience is not something that can be gained by reading automotive theory books. Back to putting the money where the mouth is. Use what works or theorize about building something better..... it's all good. Keeps things exciting. Lotsa guys trying new stuff and lots of the guys doing it the "old way" are still winning races consistently.

Don't see the need to poke at someone's efforts. All of us want something a little different from the next. The jealousy thing kinda sucks though. The "I can do that too" thing is on the same level. Like Nike says, just do it.

-Mindgame

 

Game, if I knew your were going to get in on someone elses fight than I would have never said anything. Seriously when did I pull YOU into this?

BTW the Engine Masters is my arena, it's realitively new and so am I. Seems like a good fit to me. The guys you mentioned are getting more and more interested in this contest, so acutally we are coming together to compete. Your right I don't do heads, but the dyno and the flow bench I can do. Software is all what you make of it. You already know that. I'm might not have all the toys but I make alot of all of them.

If you read my posts I really don't care what Jim did, but say I spent this and I spent that seems pretty childish.

As for the Hyd Roller, yeah I get that, a Soild Roller would make more sense when you are shooting for 6,500+ rpm engine speeds, that was another part of my point.

As for the "engineer", I find that if someone is right about 95% of the time, I still question them but I take their advice most of the time.

It's not a bad thing that these posts get off in their own little area. One thing that happens is that there is alot of knowledge here and with that there is alot of ego. So when you put all of us in a room, things are gonna happen. That's not too suprising to me.

Bret

 

My ex-street racer instincts tell me it's about time some cash went on the line here. Put up or shut up time. We all got opinions.... who's got the results?

Heh heh. Play nice, boys. I see no earthly reason this thread should have spiraled so far out of control.

Man, I'm glad to be just a weekend wrench who as never built a motor like these and never will. These kinda HP levels require a big block and a plate nitrous system when I build them.

 

Cash, lol.
I'm all about the cash.

And Bret,
No one likes me in their arguements. I don't really know why. Don't be a "hater".

Haha, hey let's chill. I've had four........ or was it five beers so far tonight.... so things are going real well right now. Maybe not grammar-wise but you know.

On the big dawgs and the EMC. I don't really know why they'd wanna get involved. It's not like alot of these guys really have much need for the "street realm" business with all the race stuff they do. Then again.... there are more and more guys like myself, Jim, Joe Overton, Rich, Jason Short, to name a few... who are building crazy street stuff. Most guys just choose to get crazy with the nitrous, hair-dryers, etc.. Hey, whatever floats it...... guess there's money to be made there. Should get interesting with all these guys coming out..... but I'd be kinda leary of that pulling time away from their race development. Kinda like companies who put their eggs in too many baskets... they usually end up selling some baskets and breaking some eggs.

Later man.

-Mindgame

 

Dayam, usually if mindgame decideds to put his two cents in it's because someone's gone retarded.......but he never said who. Someone's touchy....Personally I'm stickin with my Tungsten rods, valves, and crank....by half track the motor will have so much inertia I can shut down and still accelerate! And if you think a big block is heavy, wait until you check out my 440 # tungsten crank

 

I hear you on the beer point. 4-5 makes things go well anytime.

I've heard some names are interested. Seems funny to me too, because they either lose race time or they lose the contest, one or the other. My guess is that most of them think it's a easy contest to come in and win, by the results of the last one it doesn't appear that way. Shaver, Davis, Dorton didn't win or get on the podium. So it makes me wonder why theother guys would want to get into this. One guy I would have loved to see get into this was Smokey, I'm sure something special would have come of the rules then. Lingenfelter was asked for the small block one, he has nothing to gain and he knows it. It really is a contest that suits the little guy, rather than the big name builders.

You are right in the high end street engine reguard. Guys either want the power or want the street race money, getting a top notch motor is the only way to get above and beyond what everyone else has. Getting crazy NA and then throwing dope on top of that, is my choice for ulta crazy street engines. One point soon we will have a better engine for the put up or shut up contest. Just give me a little more time. I'd like to have a motor that's apples vs apples and the customers consent to say something. Guys who really race for cash don't want anyone to know what they have or where it came from. It's not going to be mine, I just want a trans am car for the street, nothing a 347 LS1 can't handle. The LS1 realm has not been fully explored yet IMHO.

BTW game, what's the rest of your motor? We know intake and heads, what's your guess on it and when do you expect it to be running? I've heard some interesting things, makes me wonder. Not going to jump all over it, sounds good as far as I've heard.

Bret

 

Yeah this thread took a turn from the discussion on rods!

Its well known that Bret and I are building my motor and as you can see in my sig we are on a tight college budget. No were not going to be breaking any NA records, and no were not doing anything ground breaking here. But we are building a hell of a motor on a budget at or even below what the vast majority of the members on the board can afford. Hell this whole project is within a couple hundred dollars of Jims crank!

Jim your motor is a work of art and from the pics Ive seen you shouldnt even run it in fear of getting it dirty. But you may have gone a little overboard on your way there. Is that wrong NO! but very few members on the board may be able appreciate the numbers you will get without their jaw dropping at the $$ that went into it.

Your combo is extremely impressive and may very well be a model for the "perfect LT1" in respect to parts and quality. But what Im most impressed with is when board members such as myself, Jason Short, Jeff Collop, Trey, and Jordan Musser, etc are able to go as fast as we are with what we have to work with. When money is a object thats where the real impressive work starts IMO.

There are a million ways to build a motor...most importantly is that we all have fun doing it.

 

Bret,
I have a bit more to do yet. Gotta get the rear from Currie, gotta install it. Still need a driveshaft. I have wheels on order but we're looking at another three weeks on that deal. So there are a few loose ends that need tying up. I'm thinking.... hopefully by the end of March.

As for the "rest". I can't wow you with real expensive parts and don't want to spill everything.... but I will share some.

The heads and everything that goes with them are from an eliminator engine.... just sold the car... still have the engine and heads. So I had everything to make them work, which saved me a bunch of $$ for this build... just had to buy a set of 1.6:1 rockers to replace the 1.7's in my T&D setup. Valves are Ferrea and are melonite coated, springs are Isky toolroom. Herbert titanium retainers, Isky lash caps, etc.
I'm also running an Isky rev kit and Endurance Plus aluminum top lifters.
Moroso anti-cav oil pump, Canton oil pan (not a big fan but limited options).... Moroso needs to step up to the plate here. Moroso vacuum pump, nodular iron main caps (parallel 4 bolt). The crank is a 4340 forging from HTC, alecular bearings. Manley Racemaster rods, BME pistons 411g (tbc tops, dfl skirts), 1.2/1.2/3mm Speed Pro file-fit plasma moly rings, C&A tool steel pins. Howards billet timing chain, Fluidampr. No combustion chamber coatings..... exhaust ports are coated. Custom 1-7/8" headers with Burns merge collectors. Exhaust will be true dual 3" with an x-pipe..... that is yet to come also!

So, nothing too out of the ordinary for a high performance build. There are (~450rwhp) 383's on this site with almost twice as much in the bottom end as I have. I spent as little as I felt was needed while concentrating on the top end and trying to aleviate some frictional loss here and there. For a 383 built on as much LT1 stuff I could keep, she's not too bad.

-Mindgame

 

I usually take the "just sit back and STFU" approach in threads like this, but I actually have something to add. And it's actually about rods!

Since Honda/Acura has been running titanium rods in a production motor since '90 (NSX), it's safe to say they can work But then again, it's a "weak" mill at only 290 HP Sounds cool on paper though.

BTW, keep on eye out on ebay and you can score a new set of SCAT or Eagle I-beams for $150.

 

Here and there........ Yeah other than coating the cylinder walls you are pretty close. The coatings are interesting. I would imagine the stems of the valves are done in Melonite unless that is the basis of the flow coating for intake runners, seems that Melonite is closer to PTFE than a flow coat. Only 1.2mm rings? Why not drop down to the .043? That with the vaccum pump and really low tension oils(which are probably in there too) would help a little more. If roller bearings for the cam where not expensive I wouldn't be suprised to see them in there too.

One question, why didn't you do any coating on the chambers? The exhaust ports are done, piston tops are done, but not the chambers? Is there a certain reason you want the heat to escape into the cylinder head? I know there are alot of theories on this stuff. My conclusion so far is if you do TBC do the chambers, pistons and exh ports.

HTC? Was it a custom one from them or the off the shelf 3.75"

I'm a big fan of Fluidampr, I like the signature series ones when there is a budget for them.

The bearings are interesting, not just a normal one at that. King, Oliver or Lunati ones? Top Fuel and NASCAR boys seem to love those things. I should have used them in the EM engine, could have taken the low oil for a few pulls. If anything they are good insurance.

Either way, it's good to see a build like this where you know what and why all of the parts are going into there.

Bret