Performance Differance between I beam and H beam rods?
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Originally posted by DarthIROC
Ok so its pretty much undecided? Ill just buy the lightest ones I can afford that are already stroker clearanced. But that leaves my other question. How much better is a full float rod/pin/piston that a regular pressed pin. And just so Im sure when a rod says bushed that means its for a full float pin right?
Ok so its pretty much undecided? Ill just buy the lightest ones I can afford that are already stroker clearanced. But that leaves my other question. How much better is a full float rod/pin/piston that a regular pressed pin. And just so Im sure when a rod says bushed that means its for a full float pin right?
Bret
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Originally posted by Mindgame
Bret, Howards is a bit more popular with the circle track crowd than drag race. Their rods are light, about the only forged rod on the same level is the Crower Maxi-lite billet series. The 6.0" 93-4 Maxis for instance are on the same hp rating and weigh ~605 g. Howards midweight rod is ~595. They are rated at up to ~650 hp but I will tell you I've ran them in a 392 race engine that made well over 700 hp 7,300 rpm and never had one fail, nor show abnormal elongation. Bushed and ran them for 3 seasons. Good stuff that not many people are aware of except for the circle trackers it seems.
-Mindgame
Bret, Howards is a bit more popular with the circle track crowd than drag race. Their rods are light, about the only forged rod on the same level is the Crower Maxi-lite billet series. The 6.0" 93-4 Maxis for instance are on the same hp rating and weigh ~605 g. Howards midweight rod is ~595. They are rated at up to ~650 hp but I will tell you I've ran them in a 392 race engine that made well over 700 hp 7,300 rpm and never had one fail, nor show abnormal elongation. Bushed and ran them for 3 seasons. Good stuff that not many people are aware of except for the circle trackers it seems.
-Mindgame
BTW I've found some other rods in the $1000, $500 range that are 525g and 570g respectively. So add them in with the Crowers and the Howards and Arrows and you have a alot of choices that are lightweight, and all different $ levels.
Same with pistons. How light do you think you can get a 3.48-3.50" stroke 6.0" rods piston for a max 500hp engine? Lighter than I ever thought! Same principal applies though, speed costs money how fast do you want to go? or in his case how light do you want to go.
Bret
Last edited by SStrokerAce; Apr 14, 2003 at 01:13 PM.
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From: In a house by the bay
Originally posted by SStrokerAce
BTW I've found some other rods in the $1000, $500 range that are 525g and 570g respectively. So add them in with the Crowers and the Howards and Arrows and you have a alot of choices that are lightweight, and all different $ levels.
BTW I've found some other rods in the $1000, $500 range that are 525g and 570g respectively. So add them in with the Crowers and the Howards and Arrows and you have a alot of choices that are lightweight, and all different $ levels.
"525-575g range"..... Manley has a few that I'm aware of... the Tour Lite, Grand National and Sportsmaster.
Care to name the ones you know of?
Same with pistons. How light do you think you can get a 3.48-3.50" stroke 6.0" rods piston for a max 500hp engine?
I do know that in Comp Eliminator, this is maybe 6 years ago, the 6.25 rod pistons were under 300g's with modifications. Who knows now! The stuff is getting lighter and better all the time.
Same principal applies though, speed costs money how fast do you want to go? or in his case how light do you want to go.
Bret
Bret
It's all a matter of compromises right?
-Mindgame
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Just for reference, I paid $2,150 for my Crower Maxi-light 94-2 6.0 rods with stroker profiling and 7/16" 280,000 psi bolts. They weighed 505 grams after the profiling. My JE pistons were ~405 grams, IIRC, with pins (3.875" stroke).
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How long you need it to last is the other one. That's one question I ask about valvetrain parts too.
There are some off the shelf pistons at 308g before valve reliefs.
You got me on the rods though.
Maxi Light 94's are made of VAR 300M, at least it looks that way in the price and description of them, they never really say, but if it's steel it's VAR 300M definately.
Jimlab,
I really wonder about doing any profiling on a 94 Maxi, they don't tell you what the heat treating is and if doing any machine work will ruin the end result. On a rod that expensive, light and engineered I have a feeling that modifing them might not be the best option. I'll have to get the OldSStrokers input on this though, but my first inclination is to say leave them alone.
Bret
There are some off the shelf pistons at 308g before valve reliefs.
You got me on the rods though.
Maxi Light 94's are made of VAR 300M, at least it looks that way in the price and description of them, they never really say, but if it's steel it's VAR 300M definately.
Jimlab,
I really wonder about doing any profiling on a 94 Maxi, they don't tell you what the heat treating is and if doing any machine work will ruin the end result. On a rod that expensive, light and engineered I have a feeling that modifing them might not be the best option. I'll have to get the OldSStrokers input on this though, but my first inclination is to say leave them alone.
Bret
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From: Redmond, WA
Originally posted by SStrokerAce
I really wonder about doing any profiling on a 94 Maxi, they don't tell you what the heat treating is and if doing any machine work will ruin the end result. On a rod that expensive, light and engineered I have a feeling that modifing them might not be the best option. I'll have to get the OldSStrokers input on this though, but my first inclination is to say leave them alone.
I really wonder about doing any profiling on a 94 Maxi, they don't tell you what the heat treating is and if doing any machine work will ruin the end result. On a rod that expensive, light and engineered I have a feeling that modifing them might not be the best option. I'll have to get the OldSStrokers input on this though, but my first inclination is to say leave them alone.
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From: Upstate NY
Originally posted by jimlab
Crower built them to order and did the machining in-house. We did not modify them in any way.
Crower built them to order and did the machining in-house. We did not modify them in any way.
At those prices, all I would do is measure the big end and especially the pin ends accurately, wash them and install.
I haven't been following your engine: are we talking 750 hp and 8000+ here, or more?
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LOL
Guys,
You didn't really think an engine builder like Mark was gonna order a $1200+ set of rods and start machining on them did you.
Lots of these companies do custom profiling. Connecting rods, crankshafts, rocker arms, pistons.... you name it they'll modify it to give you an advantage over the competition.
I got out for less than $800 on mine. Then again, I was working on a very distinct budget for this engine..... not to mention, it'll never see over 7,000 rpm.
-Mindgame
Guys,
You didn't really think an engine builder like Mark was gonna order a $1200+ set of rods and start machining on them did you.
Lots of these companies do custom profiling. Connecting rods, crankshafts, rocker arms, pistons.... you name it they'll modify it to give you an advantage over the competition.
I got out for less than $800 on mine. Then again, I was working on a very distinct budget for this engine..... not to mention, it'll never see over 7,000 rpm.
-Mindgame
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From: Upstate NY
Originally posted by Mindgame
Guys,
You didn't really think an engine builder like Mark was gonna order a $1200+ set of rods and start machining on them did you.
-Mindgame
Guys,
You didn't really think an engine builder like Mark was gonna order a $1200+ set of rods and start machining on them did you.
-Mindgame
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From: In a house by the bay
Can't really speak for Jim and his intentions, he's posted on this in LT1 Tech though.
What I can say is that I'm expecting him to make ~675 hp, 550 lbs-ft of torque at about 7200 rpm. This from a 396 with a very short runner Hogans intake, AFR 215's, running on pump gas and various other goodies. Going in an RX7 so it should be a wild ride... unobtanium or no.
-Mindgame
What I can say is that I'm expecting him to make ~675 hp, 550 lbs-ft of torque at about 7200 rpm. This from a 396 with a very short runner Hogans intake, AFR 215's, running on pump gas and various other goodies. Going in an RX7 so it should be a wild ride... unobtanium or no.
-Mindgame
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From: In a house by the bay
Originally posted by jimlab
Then I'd better not tell you what my crankshaft cost.
Then I'd better not tell you what my crankshaft cost.
Not to mention, I'm sure you guys ruined a couple hundred pounds of carbide burrs lightening that thing.
-Mindgame
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From: Redmond, WA
Just the heads? Not including the Crower shaft mount rockers...
Bare AFR 215cc RR LT4 custom cast heads - $1,995.00
Port and flow heads - $1,200.00
Port match intake, flow and reshape - $300.00
Cut spring pockets - $35.00
Comp Cams valve spring discs - $45.00
Teflon valve seals - $24.00
Manley Ti exhaust valves, 1.625" - $720.00
Manley Ti intake valves, 2.100" - $684.44
Competition valve job - $195.00
Comp Cams Pacaloy valve springs - $350.00
AFR Ti retainers - $145.00
AFR valve locks - $32.00
Assemble heads - $40.00
Grand total: $5,765.44
Bare AFR 215cc RR LT4 custom cast heads - $1,995.00
Port and flow heads - $1,200.00
Port match intake, flow and reshape - $300.00
Cut spring pockets - $35.00
Comp Cams valve spring discs - $45.00
Teflon valve seals - $24.00
Manley Ti exhaust valves, 1.625" - $720.00
Manley Ti intake valves, 2.100" - $684.44
Competition valve job - $195.00
Comp Cams Pacaloy valve springs - $350.00
AFR Ti retainers - $145.00
AFR valve locks - $32.00
Assemble heads - $40.00
Grand total: $5,765.44
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O.k. what do they flow? For $5000 I want a set of Brodie 12x12RP's!
My thought would be........ $5,765.44 - $700 for a LT1 Conversion, leaves me with $5,065.44. Let's take out the $300 for the intake, because we're not going to even get into that. (For a custom I'd rather own a Wilson) Hold on, why do you need to fix and port match the intake?
Anyways, $3800 on a set of Brodie CNC 12x12RP's or GB2000 that are flowing 380+cfm and go from there. Since you're not going over 7,500rpm go back to stainless valves. Hell you're gonna need new rings and bearings with a LT1 block and that power before you need new springs anways, might as well change all of them while you're in there. All the extra machine work is done, and throw on a set of Jesel Shaft mounts because the Crower stuff costs too much. My bet is that by .500 lift I've got your max flow already (340-350cfm) and we're going to end up at the same cost. ( I know Mark can get a set of AFR Non RR 23 Degs to 315+cfm, but why spend that cash on that? $3500+ on set of 23 Deg heads? unless your racing for money in a class, why?)
You don't even want to know my 350cfm low buck choice. Under $3K total.
A Cola 37lbs crank is around $1400 from what I hear. No real need to go to a 32lbs billet.
No trying to give you a dig Jim, but Wille Sutton was right (BTW it's actually "Willie , why do you rob banks?" "because, that's where the money is" )
I would just say that Mark and I would go about your project a little different. Either way in the end you have one hell of a engine, should have some sick throttle response. Even with good gumball tires, I would imagine full throttle will be very unlikely.
Bret
My thought would be........ $5,765.44 - $700 for a LT1 Conversion, leaves me with $5,065.44. Let's take out the $300 for the intake, because we're not going to even get into that. (For a custom I'd rather own a Wilson) Hold on, why do you need to fix and port match the intake?
Anyways, $3800 on a set of Brodie CNC 12x12RP's or GB2000 that are flowing 380+cfm and go from there. Since you're not going over 7,500rpm go back to stainless valves. Hell you're gonna need new rings and bearings with a LT1 block and that power before you need new springs anways, might as well change all of them while you're in there. All the extra machine work is done, and throw on a set of Jesel Shaft mounts because the Crower stuff costs too much. My bet is that by .500 lift I've got your max flow already (340-350cfm) and we're going to end up at the same cost. ( I know Mark can get a set of AFR Non RR 23 Degs to 315+cfm, but why spend that cash on that? $3500+ on set of 23 Deg heads? unless your racing for money in a class, why?)
You don't even want to know my 350cfm low buck choice. Under $3K total.
A Cola 37lbs crank is around $1400 from what I hear. No real need to go to a 32lbs billet.
No trying to give you a dig Jim, but Wille Sutton was right (BTW it's actually "Willie , why do you rob banks?" "because, that's where the money is" )
I would just say that Mark and I would go about your project a little different. Either way in the end you have one hell of a engine, should have some sick throttle response. Even with good gumball tires, I would imagine full throttle will be very unlikely.
Bret
Last edited by SStrokerAce; Apr 17, 2003 at 04:44 AM.