This question really only qualifies as an advanced question in the sense that it takes a pretty good understanding of what is available in the current aftermarket, what the pros & cons of those chaoices are and how these realities relate to the real world. A good time and experienced based depth of understanding of the whole car scene over the last 20+ years is also helpful. In other words, if you are old enough to remember Scott's 1977 7.77 Monza, know who Smokey & Grumpy are but know the differences between N-Alpha, SD & MAF systems, then you're exactly the person I want to hear from on this thread.



My question here is best represented by two engines I have been drooling over recently.


One engine is that 396/520 LTx based engine from Golen. That's about $7500.
The other engine is a combination of the GM 454 Crate Motor plus a 6-71 Blower. Also about $7500 in cost. That crate engine is rated at 425, routinely dynos at above 450 and with the huffer should easily hit the 525-550hp range.


Many of you may have seen the 800-1000hp buildups of these engines using the Vortech carb enclosure system that several magazines have featured in the last few years.
I only mention this because I don't want anyone to think I'm pulling numbers completely out of my butt. Partially maybe, but not completely.


Now, both of those aforementioned engines are without ancillary parts. The Golen engine would need at least all the parts on the stock LTx engine, properly modified of course, and the GM crate engine would need at least a couple of carburators and assorted support systems.

So lets really pull a number out of the proverbial posterior and say that either option could be installed in an otherwise empty car for $10,000.
Naturally, that's not cheap. Not as expensive as these things used to be certainly, but not cheap.

However, it does bring up an interesting question, which is at the core of this thread.


You can come up with pros and cons for either engine. The Golen option is obviously more of a bolt-in and these things go and is certainly lighter. The 454 option with it's 8.75 compression and a mere 6-8lbs of boost will produce ungodly power at fairly low RPMs, which is good for longevity, especially in a weekend bracket bomber.


The real issue starts coming up in terms of potential.

Once I have the Golen engine installed in a hypothetical car, short of adding nitrous, there is no easy way to get a major bump in power. With the blown 454, I could simply swap out a pulley, pour in some high octane gas and suddenly have a 12lb boost engine making perhaps over 700hp, still at fairly low stress. OK, oversimplified and unsubstantiated, but I don't think my basic point is off the mark.


What's going on here is essentially the commoditization of the automotive aftermarket.

In another thread we have an amazing discussion of those 18 degree heads, and GOD do I want to use a set of those on, well... ANYDAMNTHING, frankly.

But how much sense does that make anymore?


At what point does the chasing of exciting new developments and technology become a little silly when you could go with the "big hammer" method for less money and higher reliability.


A more practical example is taking my existing LTx engine, doing some careful shopping and building, then bolting on a large Vortech to get 700-800hp for what that 520hp 396 would have cost me. More oversimplification of course, but again... the basic point is true. I don't even need to stroke it if I did that. I could build it as a 355 with a set of mahle coated pistons, some Eagle H-Beams & forged crank, and even just use a girdle instead of a splay conversion. As to the heads, I don't have to tell anyone here how easy it is to pick up someone else's take-off parts for surprisingly small amounts of money. Hell, if I wanted to go the really lazy route I could just do a ring & bearing R&R, throw some SRP forged pistons onto my reconditioned rods and bolt a set of those LTx Trick Flows onto the shortblock. Adding a nice sized used blower from the for sale section should set me back another 2500-ish for a total cost of... what...? five grand? six?

Now, this si sounding like the classic NA vs FI argument, but it really isn't. It's about how the trickle-down effect of the cutting edge technology is having a dramatic impact on the entire aftermarket.

Hell, when I was first getting into hot-rods, the 2.02/1.60 Angle Plug heads were the hot ticket in small block heads and everyone with a clue and a desire for a STREET big-block was running Oval Port heads. Oh yeah... and anything over 427 was considered silly because you couldn't rev it.
([i]And for laughs you could always go down to E-Town and watch Bob try to get his new Thunderbird to run straight.
Oh yeah, and Shirley was still kinda hot.)



There really isn't any right or wrong answer to this question. I'm more interested in the thoughts of others on this subject because I cannot POSSIBLY be the only one who has noticed the new realities and has been wondering what it means for our hobby. Not in terms of the overall hobby, but for regular folks like us who just want to go fast and are always looking for better, more cost effective ways to do so.



Ironic that this new reality should come at a time that should surely be considered the golden age of hot-rodding, although maybe it would be more true to say that this was an inevitable result of that golden age.


Anyway... your thoughts?

 

Man that's a long post!!!!

Cost effective HP is always hard... basically what you want to do in that case is get the best stuff that will work together and hold the power for the least amount.

In terms of a Blown BBC... Well a Shaffiroff 540 BBC with some good 26-24* head on it and a ATI blower on top could get you MUCHO power for the least amount..... and I'm talking 1200+ hp.

Bret

 

Going faster for less money has been been extreamly satisfying. Trick parts to me are like jewerly,not required to win the fight but fun to have. Serious racers need high tech weapons to prevail. I'm in it for FUN. The best racers always get killed. Not always from accidents,the stress will do them in.

 

Well, it's true that it's neven been easier to go fast than it is right now. The parts are just SO much better than they used to be it's rediculous. Getting over 1 HP fer cube used to be a big deal, but now it's as common as dirt. Hell, you have to build 500HP to keep up with some FACTORY cars (IE viper, new z06, Ford GT). The real question as I see it is what combo would be necessary to reach your stated goals. If it's a dead nuts reliable bracket motor, then the blown BBC gets the nod. It's the old mantra of cubic inches. Superchargers on small blocks (whether they are powered by a belt or by the exhaust makes no fundmental difference) are HARD on parts in a bracket motor. You've got an hour at best between rounds (if your going rounds that is!) and I would presonally want to check/replace a few more things on a high RPM small block than I would on a lower boost lower RPM big block. Also, the high zoot parts needed really hurt when you chuck a rod or crack a piston or kiss the valves at a gazillion RPM.

There are so many choices today because finally the aftermarket is BETTER than the OEM in most cases. As far as potential, the BBC gets the nod hands down to me. When was the last time you saw a set of BIG chiefs bolted on a small block?

Dave C.

 

True.


BTW, great sig, ya geek.

 

Or little cheifs bolted on a small block?

Still to me if I can build a 420+ cube SBC with SB2 heads and only turn it 7500rpm that puppy is going to make a lot of stink...

Braket cars are a different story.... your not worried about getting ET and MPH records just consistant times and low R/T's

Bret

 

Remember if ya got the 8-71 on top it looks BAD but ya still got to hook it on the street to win races.That's going to take a BUNCH of chassie mods and 15/33's or the biggest drag radial ya can buy.
I would opt for a high winding small block that I could gear low and kick some as*.Put in a OD tranny and cruise.

 

Why thank you. It's the geekdom that pays the bills.

BTW, are you talking about a street motor or a bracket motor? Cause if it's a street motor, then your also looking for something a little more "eye catching" right? Well, then the monster huffer sticking though the hood still gets my vote. Something like that turns a normal street drive into a whole viceral experience! There's just something about a blown big block with enough nuts to make dogs puke and little children cry from blocks away!

Dave C.

 

NICE!

 

Nah, I'm getting kind of old, so I'm talking about a "means to an end". The end being the maximum fun that I can manage to purchase with my money.

If I wanted to do a strictly bracket car, I'd buy a mid-80's G-Body, use a Glide & a Spool (or Lincoln Locker) behind a mild big block breathing a large nitrous shot.

If I wanted a strictly street car, I'd just wait 2 years for the CTS-V to be commonly available in the post-lease market and snag one of those.

What I want is a TOY. I think you know what I mean.

 

If there is a choice between a BB and a SB it's no contest. Big block all the way. For a given hp level it will be working less and will therefore cost less and last longer.

Rich

 

You just HAD to come in and spoil some perfectly good mental masturbation with LOGIC?