Lets get real about the weight of the Camaro
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 619
I remember "someone" posting this statement about the v8 engine that was to be in the Camaro, before it was disclosed:
"Forget everything you thought you knew about engines."
Everyone thought there was going to be an LS3 but when that quote got thrown out there, it threw everyone off. But then the camaro ended up with that LS3 everyone thought from the beginning, and one version with AFM, which was the other guess from the beginning as well. Nothing new really, and defenitely not worthy of "Forget everything you thought you knew about engines."
so, in fairness, I think when people are guessing what the car will be like, they are right to go with their gut instict. history proves it.
"Forget everything you thought you knew about engines."
Everyone thought there was going to be an LS3 but when that quote got thrown out there, it threw everyone off. But then the camaro ended up with that LS3 everyone thought from the beginning, and one version with AFM, which was the other guess from the beginning as well. Nothing new really, and defenitely not worthy of "Forget everything you thought you knew about engines."
so, in fairness, I think when people are guessing what the car will be like, they are right to go with their gut instict. history proves it.
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From: Shelton, WA
Last edited by onebadponcho; Aug 11, 2008 at 09:56 AM.
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 16,176
From: Chicagoland IL
Naturally, I'm prejudiced.
I've been fortunate to drive a few of our IVERs --
This past week I was at Spring Mountain Motorsports Park (www.springmountainmotorsports.com) --
.....and had a Silver SS on the track to film with several other examples of our performance cars. (.....by the way - the 2009 Cobalt SS Turbo Sedan is going to surprise a few people....)......(but I digress....)
The Camaro SS that I drove is probably a 50-55% car -- meaning that it appears to be a production car -- but the chassis/powertrain/exhaust and other such items are old......the car was built in December of last year in Australia.......
Now -- I've driven a lot of 4th gens on that track......and I know this new car will be a surprise to a lot of people......but what I wasn't expecting was the performance of THIS particular car -- it happens to be an L99 with the 6speed automatic trans. It feels like a much lighter car -- and if I had to name my biggest complaint? ....harder to 'visual scan' because of the rear view mirror.......
I can say this knowing that I'm not suddenly going to disappear: There are going to be some people who are genuinely surprised when they drive this car........they may not want to admit it -- but they'll be surprised......in a good way.
Now -- take it for what it's worth........
I've been fortunate to drive a few of our IVERs --
This past week I was at Spring Mountain Motorsports Park (www.springmountainmotorsports.com) --
.....and had a Silver SS on the track to film with several other examples of our performance cars. (.....by the way - the 2009 Cobalt SS Turbo Sedan is going to surprise a few people....)......(but I digress....)
The Camaro SS that I drove is probably a 50-55% car -- meaning that it appears to be a production car -- but the chassis/powertrain/exhaust and other such items are old......the car was built in December of last year in Australia.......
Now -- I've driven a lot of 4th gens on that track......and I know this new car will be a surprise to a lot of people......but what I wasn't expecting was the performance of THIS particular car -- it happens to be an L99 with the 6speed automatic trans. It feels like a much lighter car -- and if I had to name my biggest complaint? ....harder to 'visual scan' because of the rear view mirror.......
I can say this knowing that I'm not suddenly going to disappear: There are going to be some people who are genuinely surprised when they drive this car........they may not want to admit it -- but they'll be surprised......in a good way.
Now -- take it for what it's worth........
2010 Camaro Moderator/Disciple
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,087
From: Chester, NY
more importantly, does it matter?
not in the overall picture it doesnt. If performance sold cars, why did Mustang wipe the floors vs 4th gen FCar in total units sold.
Last edited by ChrisL; Aug 10, 2008 at 06:57 PM.
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,123
From: Melbourne, Australia
I suspect you're referring to me, since I'm the only one who responded, when you asked if anyone had any G8 seat time. You may want to go back and review what I said, since "unweildy" seems to be YOUR manufactured term.
At any rate, I expect the Camaro to be somewhat better handling than the G8, mostly due to it's more rearward weight bias.
At any rate, I expect the Camaro to be somewhat better handling than the G8, mostly due to it's more rearward weight bias.
Yes. And yes.
The term "unwieldy" would aptly describe your assessment. Since you are the main proponent and the chief critique of the Camaro's weight, it's really immaterial to the 99% of people who will buy this car. Just think for a moment... 1% of the 100,000 cars projected for sale each year is 1,000 cars. That's a lot of would-be racers each year... and I doubt there'd be that many new Camaros lobbing at racetracks each year.
Your (often repeated) criticism is almost irrelevant in this context. Especially so, if you are NOT one of those owners.
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 859
From: AR (PA born and fled)
Yes. And yes.
The term "unwieldy" would aptly describe your assessment. Since you are the main proponent and the chief critique of the Camaro's weight, it's really immaterial to the 99% of people who will buy this car. Just think for a moment... 1% of the 100,000 cars projected for sale each year is 1,000 cars. That's a lot of would-be racers each year... and I doubt there'd be that many new Camaros lobbing at racetracks each year.
Your (often repeated) criticism is almost irrelevant in this context. Especially so, if you are NOT one of those owners.
The term "unwieldy" would aptly describe your assessment. Since you are the main proponent and the chief critique of the Camaro's weight, it's really immaterial to the 99% of people who will buy this car. Just think for a moment... 1% of the 100,000 cars projected for sale each year is 1,000 cars. That's a lot of would-be racers each year... and I doubt there'd be that many new Camaros lobbing at racetracks each year.
Your (often repeated) criticism is almost irrelevant in this context. Especially so, if you are NOT one of those owners.
Perception matters.
Yes, there will be those who will buy this car regardless of the weight just because it says Camaro on the fender. Those are the easy sales. Preaching to the choir with those.
What about the other 99% of the market GM is trying to reach with the car?
Will they still buy the car if the weight is a detriment in comparison tests?
Will they still buy the car if the weight is a detriment in competition?
Think "halo effect". If the car is perceived to be a ponderous beast, it will only sell to the "choir" I mentioned above. In other words, it won't sell outside the group of diehards who bought the last car. We know how that turned out. In fact, it may sell in even fewer numbers once the pent up demand is satisifed since there are 4th gen buyers who aren't going to buy this one because of it's bulk.
Would the C5 and C6 be the successes they are if they weighed 500 lbs more than they do? Probably not. Most of those buyers will never track the cars. Why should it matter?
Perception and image.
Think I'm wrong? Get on some Corvette boards and ask 'em how they would feel if their car gained 100 hp and 500 lbs in the next generation. It would make the reaction here look like an ice cream social.
Criticism is not irrelevant. It improves the breed. What will produce the better product? Criticism or thin skinned myopic cheerleading?
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 16,176
From: Chicagoland IL
Yes. And yes.
The term "unwieldy" would aptly describe your assessment. Since you are the main proponent and the chief critique of the Camaro's weight, it's really immaterial to the 99% of people who will buy this car. Just think for a moment... 1% of the 100,000 cars projected for sale each year is 1,000 cars. That's a lot of would-be racers each year... and I doubt there'd be that many new Camaros lobbing at racetracks each year.
Your (often repeated) criticism is almost irrelevant in this context. Especially so, if you are NOT one of those owners.
The term "unwieldy" would aptly describe your assessment. Since you are the main proponent and the chief critique of the Camaro's weight, it's really immaterial to the 99% of people who will buy this car. Just think for a moment... 1% of the 100,000 cars projected for sale each year is 1,000 cars. That's a lot of would-be racers each year... and I doubt there'd be that many new Camaros lobbing at racetracks each year.
Your (often repeated) criticism is almost irrelevant in this context. Especially so, if you are NOT one of those owners.
Whatever.....
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 16,176
From: Chicagoland IL
I think it would kinda matter. 100 more horsepower. IRS. Brembos. 10 year technological leap. Yup, it would matter.
As far as why the SN95 outsold the 4th gen, lots of old threads about that:
- Multiple appealing models.
- Smaller exterior dimensions.
- Better driving position.
- Cool wheels available on all models.
- Various available power levels. (base, GT, Bullitt, Mach 1 {2, stick and auto}, SVT)
I could go on......
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Joined: May 2000
Posts: 215
From: nj
What I think is that the past/current owners of the wonderful 4th gen, were looking forward to a Camaro that would make them want to go buy the new Camaro.
The fourth Gen was an incredible performace machine, i can remember many a night at Etown vs a few c5 vettes and beating them by 2 tenths, with that it is " only a z28 "...yup
I don't think this will happen vs. the new vettes unless you spot the 'maro 8 tenths.
Now, after hearing how great the next gen GTO I retrired my z28 ad got into that, was not unhappy with it but it just did not perform nor excite like the fbody, b/c soft, heavy, weird stance, just didn't jive with me. So I retired that and went back " home " to the fbody.
The natural progression of things is to get faster and better handleing, See Corvette, seems to get better and better. Is this happening to our Camaro ?
If there is maginal performance gain , what is my motivation to get out of the LS1 SS ? ----gotta have it factor----? (see Mustang )
It seems that this Camaro was built to sell, and after all the passion we all put into this. It seems we get 3900lbs, which we cried/pleaded not to get. No Z28 supercharged. An Ls3 which is cool, and this car may be a great performing machine, no one knows.......maybe the 12 diciples do. I guess....I dunno. all know is that by doing the math on the LS3 @3900lbs vs my Ls1@3400 it is damn close........too close for 33,ooo$ usd
Like I said earlier I can't wait to line up a new SS. " but that is only an ls1 "...yup
with that said, if I drive a f5 and it is all that, then I'll be on board, but I've already tried the HOLDEN/GTO and it was comforable but not exciting.
A lot of us were hoping for a machine that would retire our 4th gens, looks like this did not happen. For me it just makes my 27k mi SS that much better!!
Also I cannot wait for the "ADJUSTED MARKET VALUE".
If anything but high OIL is hurting GM , I think the dealership system is CLOSE SECOND.
The fourth Gen was an incredible performace machine, i can remember many a night at Etown vs a few c5 vettes and beating them by 2 tenths, with that it is " only a z28 "...yup
I don't think this will happen vs. the new vettes unless you spot the 'maro 8 tenths.Now, after hearing how great the next gen GTO I retrired my z28 ad got into that, was not unhappy with it but it just did not perform nor excite like the fbody, b/c soft, heavy, weird stance, just didn't jive with me. So I retired that and went back " home " to the fbody.
The natural progression of things is to get faster and better handleing, See Corvette, seems to get better and better. Is this happening to our Camaro ?
If there is maginal performance gain , what is my motivation to get out of the LS1 SS ? ----gotta have it factor----? (see Mustang )
It seems that this Camaro was built to sell, and after all the passion we all put into this. It seems we get 3900lbs, which we cried/pleaded not to get. No Z28 supercharged. An Ls3 which is cool, and this car may be a great performing machine, no one knows.......maybe the 12 diciples do. I guess....I dunno. all know is that by doing the math on the LS3 @3900lbs vs my Ls1@3400 it is damn close........too close for 33,ooo$ usd
Like I said earlier I can't wait to line up a new SS. " but that is only an ls1 "...yup
with that said, if I drive a f5 and it is all that, then I'll be on board, but I've already tried the HOLDEN/GTO and it was comforable but not exciting.
A lot of us were hoping for a machine that would retire our 4th gens, looks like this did not happen. For me it just makes my 27k mi SS that much better!!
Also I cannot wait for the "ADJUSTED MARKET VALUE".
If anything but high OIL is hurting GM , I think the dealership system is CLOSE SECOND.
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,123
From: Melbourne, Australia
That's the thing. I have thought about it. This car is all about perception! The looks, the engine, the chassis... and I have no doubt GM worked hard to get it's weight down, too! On all counts (without actually having driven the vehicle but have driven the excellent, but poorer cousin, G8) GM have succeeded and I have no doubt that Camaro will be an overall success.
If you want Camaro to blow everything out the water, buy one, strip the seats out, strip the electrics out, desize the brakes, widen the rear rubber to squeeze into those tubbed rear guards... you get my drift? Racers don't skimp on money to get their machines up and running!
If you want Camaro to blow everything out the water, buy one, strip the seats out, strip the electrics out, desize the brakes, widen the rear rubber to squeeze into those tubbed rear guards... you get my drift? Racers don't skimp on money to get their machines up and running!
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Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 243
Thats how i feel...is 30k+ worth comfy seats, irs....and most likely similar performance as an LS1 with a GTO feel. Since i don't care for the way the GTO drives, and i don't want irs...it doesn't make any sense, the weight just pushes it off a cliff for me.
Fancy new body panels is all i'm left drooling over...but i can say the same for a 1000 other cars i'd take for free. So oh well for me i guess...
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,123
From: Melbourne, Australia
Think I'm wrong? Get on some Corvette boards and ask 'em how they would feel if their car gained 100 hp and 500 lbs in the next generation. It would make the reaction here look like an ice cream social.
Criticism is not irrelevant. It improves the breed. What will produce the better product? Criticism or thin skinned myopic cheerleading?
Criticism is not irrelevant. It improves the breed. What will produce the better product? Criticism or thin skinned myopic cheerleading?
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Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 940
From: Southern Indiana
The Camaro is the AFFORDABLE PERFORMANCE car. The way your talking we might as well give it 4 doors too, since i mean the corvette takes care of the 2 door category, right?
