Our modern horsepower wars of the last few years (decades?) have left a lot of us jaded. But I maintain, a 13 second 1/4 is a significant achievement and capability. 13-second cars are just about the max performance most people can keep on today's roads. It's stunning performance, compared to cars of previous years.

It's also pretty amazing that we are doing this, while also meeting ever-more-demanding MPG, emissions and safety regulations. So if the new Camaro is a ~13 second car, at the expected price point, it's going to be a pretty incredible feat of modern engineering (for those of us who are able to keep a sense of historical perspective ).

 

There isn't enough of a difference between the base WRX and the STi to make a real distinction... both have a lot of power. A better example would be the base NA Impreza, vs the WRX STi. Those out to have a lot of 'fun' just about ALWAYS go for the power.

And I'll give you another fun, hefty car to match the wondrous Jetta...



Now I'm not much of a GTR fan. But it makes a pretty darn compelling argument for having fun in a hefty car

 

I think you've just proved my point. We need to add butt-loads more horsepower now to simply maintain performance levels of the last 5 years. Point of diminishing returns.

In modern performance cars, less weight + less horsepower = BETTER mpg, less stress on parts, and, most likely, better handling and braking. What is not to like again?

 

You left out one important attribute. Price. Sure you can lay on the carbon fiber, aluminum and other exotic materials. You will get a lighter car (to a point). But the cost puts it up out of the reach of regular folks like us. We demand a lot of things - great crashworthiness, air conditioning, etc. in our next Camaro. So I don't view it as 'diminishing returns' - I view it as an optimum value for the capabilities required.

 

The GT500 is an "optimum value for the capabilities required"?

I'll just say I disagree and leave it at that. You're going to come up with whatever excuse you have to in order to justify whatever weight your Camaro has to be, because you are indeed the "true believer" or true whatever word you used the other day (I'll get in trouble if I said what I wanted to ).

I, on the other hand, am an automotive enthusiast first and foremost, and thus have the luxury of not being tied to any one brand, model, or person. Which means I don't have to tow anyones line or jump on someones bandwagon. It is a liberating feeling.

Life is grand.

 

Most of the cars on this list were mere GoKarts, even rode like'em.
I for one do NOT want to downsize the Camaro to the size of an S2000, or Miata...fun or not.
And none of the above cars appeal to me except in top trim/power levels, period.
We've got the Sky and Solstice, G5 and Cobalt SS, that's enough Sport Compacts.
I don't say the Camaro should be a MonteCarlo, but it also plainly shouldn't be a Cobalt, but a size somewhere in between.
That said, who "really" believes the Camaro will weigh the same or more than a GT500??? (3900# +)
I don't.

 

Actually, I believe the record for a stock LS1 on stock tires is 12.7.

It's obscure? I know four people with MR2s. Three with the older one, and one with a newer 138hp model. That 138hp model is, believe it or not, still fun to drive.

I've driven a 2005 WRX, non STI. It was fun to drive.

In this community, 200hp isn't usually considered to be a lot. There are several members here who won't even consider cars with that amount of power. That Prelude certainly won't pull off a 13.x in the quarter mile.

FWIW, the Prelude has 200hp, but only 163lb-ft of torque.

It's lamentable from a performance standpoint, but if people want to seat four or five people comfortably, have some room for some luggage in the trunk, get five-star crash ratings, be able to withstand the stresses of a 400hp engine, and still have a base price around 20 grand, you're not left with many options other than adding weight.

 

Eh? I was speaking of the Camaro. The GT500 suffered from some price gouging due to its exclusivity, plus the 500 hp.
Good for you! Hooray.

I like other cars besides GM. My family had a lot of Fords when I was growing up. I like the 05+ Mustang, and seriously considered one before I ended up with a 2005 GTO a while back. But the GTO won out - due to several factors including more power/tq, and better value. (EVEN THOUGH it was heavier )

 

Agreed.

What if we still got all those things -- in a package that wasn't based, from the very start, off of a large sedan?

My point was not to suggest Camaro should downsize to that point. My point was to refute the assertion that cars had to have gobs of horsepower (300+) to have any shot at being considered fun, no matter what the size.

 

Thanks.
Sure, I'd like a lighter Camaro than say, the 2002 model. But I'm a realist. It's not 2002 any more. GM doesn't have scads of $$ to just cook up new platforms on a whim. So - GM makes do with the best they have (which is mighty darn good when you think about it). The Camaro will be well-equipped, safe, quick and affordable. Plenty enough there for success

 

The point is to illustrate that a poker with obscene power won't necessarily be fun to drive. That is why my example had 600HP. And no, 4000 is not bordering on ridiculous speculation if you consider what the other Zetas weigh, and then think about how much weight a model designed in the vein of a GT500 will gain. Maybe if they make a convertible version of the rumored supercharged Camaro it might well be closer to 4300 than to 3600.

And yet again either you don't understand how weight affects performance or you assume performance just means acceleration in a straight line. And yes I mean real performance. Not just giving it 67% percent throttle at a green light every once in a while.

Imagine that. 2/3 of people on a Camaro website picked a Camaro. I'm not sure that is something to be proud of. It's like taking a poll at an Obama rally and finding that 2/3 of the people wanted to vote for him, but the other 1/3 were split between Clinton and McCain. That certainly wouldn't be anything to be proud of if you are Obama or the Camaro.

 

I voted something else . While I have all intentions to buy a new Camaro in 2010 ,"" if "" it weighs 4K lbs ....I will be buying another new Cobalt SS .

 

Well, yeah Doug.

 

Obviously, I agree.

Several months ago, I was involved in a multiperson email exchange with Bob Lutz and several others involved with the Camaro program and it's powertrains. The topic, which I initiated, was the GT500 and how ridiculously overweight and underperforming it is - considering it's cost and horsepower. And also how I felt that following this formula for - oh say - the Z/28, would not be to my liking.

I'll share with you Lutz's final thoughts on the matter: "Fear not, we will avoid stupidity".

I hope that comes to pass....

 

Yes, hopefully we will all look back on this as Much Ado About Nothing.