Good god guys get a grip!!!!
Registered User
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 3,647
From: At car shows and cruise nights!
We can all make our weight jokes and it is a shame that the car weighs so much, but if testers think the Challenger which is heaver that the Camaro feels lighter and is better handling than the M*stang, I'd think the Camaro will be the best of all of them.
Registered User
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 658
From: Madisonville, Louisiana
I told my wife before we got married that the new Camaro was not negotiable. If she couldn't live with that then that was a dealbreaker.
Registered User
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 30
From: Abitibi QC Can
For your consideration:
We were threatened within an inch of our sorry lives that if we changed this car from the concept.............................there WOULD be hell to pay. I don't think anyone can argue (well.....I shouldn't say that -- one or two would argue that blue was green..........)..........that we kept this car as close as possible to the concept.
Interestingly -- had we kept a front suspension cradle from the G8, the car would NOT look like it does today. -- we actually moved the front axle forward -- to keep the look of the concept. Guess what? Weight.
Now -- not everyone loved the concept -- but what you CANNOT deny is that the concept took the world by storm. I don't ever remember a car getting this much attention -- I don't ever remember people bursting into tears when a car (or truck) was unveiled. I don't ever remember watching people of all ages just stand in front of the concept at any number of shows -- and just gape at it for minutes on end............
................now -- COULD we get the weight down? Well -- do you want a car that LOOKS like a Camaro -- or do you want a car that looks like a BMW. (oh -- wait -- that's right -- even BMW hasn't hit the target number that some of you have set.....using exotic materials!!!....)
And Charlie -- to answer your earlier question? You and I have talked about the same subject over and over and over and over again...it's the 'broken record' subject of weight -- and if you don't remember what I told you, it tells me you weren't listening! -- any of the times we talked!
We were threatened within an inch of our sorry lives that if we changed this car from the concept.............................there WOULD be hell to pay. I don't think anyone can argue (well.....I shouldn't say that -- one or two would argue that blue was green..........)..........that we kept this car as close as possible to the concept.
Interestingly -- had we kept a front suspension cradle from the G8, the car would NOT look like it does today. -- we actually moved the front axle forward -- to keep the look of the concept. Guess what? Weight.
Now -- not everyone loved the concept -- but what you CANNOT deny is that the concept took the world by storm. I don't ever remember a car getting this much attention -- I don't ever remember people bursting into tears when a car (or truck) was unveiled. I don't ever remember watching people of all ages just stand in front of the concept at any number of shows -- and just gape at it for minutes on end............
................now -- COULD we get the weight down? Well -- do you want a car that LOOKS like a Camaro -- or do you want a car that looks like a BMW. (oh -- wait -- that's right -- even BMW hasn't hit the target number that some of you have set.....using exotic materials!!!....)
And Charlie -- to answer your earlier question? You and I have talked about the same subject over and over and over and over again...it's the 'broken record' subject of weight -- and if you don't remember what I told you, it tells me you weren't listening! -- any of the times we talked!
This car, even though some think is heavy like a small appartment building, will probably bring an anourmous grin to my face and to countless others !
Congratulations on building a superb car that close to the concept, with awesome powertrain options our way.
Really, thanks to you and your team.
Registered User
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 954
From: Shelton, WA
OK. Obviously the reason why so many are "arguing" here is because they care and have a vested interest (some a lot more than others). I think it's really safe to say ALL of us want the Camaro to stick around.
With that being said, from the "potential purchaser's" end, like the engineers/beancounters at GM, we also have to weigh cost. So on my end, I have to justify spending the money on a new car. The things I'm looking at are:
-My current F-Body is paid for (has been for a LONG time)
-I don't "need" my current F-Body, how do I justify dropping $$$$$ on another?
ANY F-Body I buy will not be my primary mode of transportation, but needs to be able to function as a daily driver. IMO, if I can't drive a car on the street, it's not worth having.
So to justify buying a new F-Body, it has to be better than what I currently have in EVERY WAY. When I look at it like that, this is what comes out:
-My current F-Body is paid for.
-My current F-Body is a "lighter platform"
-My current F-Body gets better fuel economy
-My current F-Body is faster
Yes, the new Camaro may be one of the hottest looking cars to come out in a long time. It may turn out to be a much better quality car than any other F-Body made, but I just can't justify buying one.
People are going to vote with their wallets, and it will be interesting to see how that vote turns out.
With that being said, from the "potential purchaser's" end, like the engineers/beancounters at GM, we also have to weigh cost. So on my end, I have to justify spending the money on a new car. The things I'm looking at are:
-My current F-Body is paid for (has been for a LONG time)
-I don't "need" my current F-Body, how do I justify dropping $$$$$ on another?
ANY F-Body I buy will not be my primary mode of transportation, but needs to be able to function as a daily driver. IMO, if I can't drive a car on the street, it's not worth having.
So to justify buying a new F-Body, it has to be better than what I currently have in EVERY WAY. When I look at it like that, this is what comes out:
-My current F-Body is paid for.
-My current F-Body is a "lighter platform"
-My current F-Body gets better fuel economy
-My current F-Body is faster
Yes, the new Camaro may be one of the hottest looking cars to come out in a long time. It may turn out to be a much better quality car than any other F-Body made, but I just can't justify buying one.
People are going to vote with their wallets, and it will be interesting to see how that vote turns out.
Registered User
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,123
From: Melbourne, Australia
As far as 'seat of the pants' impressions were concerned, I would have said the VE was in fact the lighter car... although the difference was nearly 300lbs in the other direction! I dare say VE is a far better (quicker) circuit car for all the reasons stated.
I hope the 5G is similar in that respect.
Super Moderator
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 9,507
From: Okemos, MI
I am not buying all this weight crap. The Mustang is under 3500 pounds. How did Ford do it? I am no engineer but why would moving the axle forward add weight? Only thing I can think of is it might have not performed as well in crash tests so they added more strength to it, which would add weight.
Lay down on the floor and do a push-up. No problem, right? Okay, now move your hands forward several inches (so that they're past the top of your head) and do it again. It just got a lot harder, didn't it? The leverage advantage you had with your hands under your body is gone.
To compensate for that getting so much harder, what do you do? You do strength training to build the muscles you need to accomplish the task. Adding those muscles makes you gain weight.
Same deal with a car. Move the front wheels forward, and you've entirely changed the way the car's weight acts on the wheels. That means you have to add a whole bunch of strength (weight) to the front end.
The most amazing thing, IMO, is that GM managed to get those front wheels way forward, and still managed to have an overall weight distribution significantly better than that of the 4th gen.
Registered User
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 4,306
From: Jersey Shore
Ill also would enjoy being dragged to a few Camaro team meetings. And to perhaps get things going..
I belive the car will drive like crap, perform like crap, not be able to take a turn without flipping over, ride like a dump truck, and get 2mpg.
And I wont change my mind unless someone from GM drops off a red RS V6(or SS auto) car at my house in the next 5-7 business days.
Address request via PM.
Please?
I belive the car will drive like crap, perform like crap, not be able to take a turn without flipping over, ride like a dump truck, and get 2mpg.
And I wont change my mind unless someone from GM drops off a red RS V6(or SS auto) car at my house in the next 5-7 business days.
Address request via PM.
Please?
Registered User
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 9,705
From: Oakland, California
BigDarknFast gave a good answer to this, but I'd like to add an analogy.
Lay down on the floor and do a push-up. No problem, right? Okay, now move your hands forward several inches (so that they're past the top of your head) and do it again. It just got a lot harder, didn't it? The leverage advantage you had with your hands under your body is gone.
To compensate for that getting so much harder, what do you do? You do strength training to build the muscles you need to accomplish the task. Adding those muscles makes you gain weight.
Same deal with a car. Move the front wheels forward, and you've entirely changed the way the car's weight acts on the wheels. That means you have to add a whole bunch of strength (weight) to the front end.
The most amazing thing, IMO, is that GM managed to get those front wheels way forward, and still managed to have an overall weight distribution significantly better than that of the 4th gen.
Lay down on the floor and do a push-up. No problem, right? Okay, now move your hands forward several inches (so that they're past the top of your head) and do it again. It just got a lot harder, didn't it? The leverage advantage you had with your hands under your body is gone.
To compensate for that getting so much harder, what do you do? You do strength training to build the muscles you need to accomplish the task. Adding those muscles makes you gain weight.
Same deal with a car. Move the front wheels forward, and you've entirely changed the way the car's weight acts on the wheels. That means you have to add a whole bunch of strength (weight) to the front end.
The most amazing thing, IMO, is that GM managed to get those front wheels way forward, and still managed to have an overall weight distribution significantly better than that of the 4th gen.
Remember when Chrysler sold us on the idea of moving the wheels to the extreme corners to make a more stable and better handling vehicle? Its the same principle. Weight is less of an issue because the wheels were moved forward to create more stability, which improves handling. The near 50/50 weight balance is truly remarkable for a front engine coupe. (Camaro's is 52/48.) This Camaro is going to handle well, regardless of how much it weighs; and with the engine package offered, weight truly is a non issue. Something that some folks around here refuse to believe because they've always been told weight is an evil when it comes to performance. As I've been saying for eons, if the car is engineered around this, weight becomes less of an issue. We just need to understand that others cannot grasp this idea, or refuse to believe it.
Its kind of like all the folks that believed the earth was flat, even after there was scientific proof to the contrary. Just like Columbus helped shatter that myth; its going to take Camaro's performance on the street and at the track to shatter the weight myth. I believe this Camaro is up to the task.
Super Moderator
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 9,507
From: Okemos, MI
Of course it's not the same. It's an analogy!
Well, let's not mislead. Weight is, and will always be, the enemy of performance.
The rest of your points are valid, though. Camaro's design team has taken several steps to hide the weight, and while I haven't driven the car yet, the positive feedback we've heard from those who have leads me to believe that they were far more successful than I could have hoped. I think that due to a combination of the wheels being pushed forward and the weight distribution being relatively even, the enthusiasts and regular Joes alike are going to be astonished at how well this car handles.
This Camaro is going to handle well, regardless of how much it weighs; and with the engine package offered, weight truly is a non issue. Something that some folks around here refuse to believe because they've always been told weight is an evil when it comes to performance. As I've been saying for eons, if the car is engineered around this, weight becomes less of an issue. We just need to understand that others cannot grasp this idea, or refuse to believe it.
Its kind of like all the folks that believed the earth was flat, even after there was scientific proof to the contrary. Just like Columbus helped shatter that myth; its going to take Camaro's performance on the street and at the track to shatter the weight myth. I believe this Camaro is up to the task.
Its kind of like all the folks that believed the earth was flat, even after there was scientific proof to the contrary. Just like Columbus helped shatter that myth; its going to take Camaro's performance on the street and at the track to shatter the weight myth. I believe this Camaro is up to the task.
The rest of your points are valid, though. Camaro's design team has taken several steps to hide the weight, and while I haven't driven the car yet, the positive feedback we've heard from those who have leads me to believe that they were far more successful than I could have hoped. I think that due to a combination of the wheels being pushed forward and the weight distribution being relatively even, the enthusiasts and regular Joes alike are going to be astonished at how well this car handles.
Super Moderator
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 9,507
From: Okemos, MI
Registered User
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 261
Ill also would enjoy being dragged to a few Camaro team meetings. And to perhaps get things going..
I belive the car will drive like crap, perform like crap, not be able to take a turn without flipping over, ride like a dump truck, and get 2mpg.
And I wont change my mind unless someone from GM drops off a red RS V6(or SS auto) car at my house in the next 5-7 business days.
Address request via PM.
Please?
I belive the car will drive like crap, perform like crap, not be able to take a turn without flipping over, ride like a dump truck, and get 2mpg.
And I wont change my mind unless someone from GM drops off a red RS V6(or SS auto) car at my house in the next 5-7 business days.
Address request via PM.
Please? ****, me too 
Registered User
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 61
From: Los Angeles