Good god guys get a grip!!!!
Registered User
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 658
From: Madisonville, Louisiana
Dear GOD I just ran thru all ten pages..........
..........wow..................
I know PacerX and I respect the heck out of him.
But I also know "Dr. Heinricy" --
I know someone on here that thinks (and has stated on more than one occasion) that the 4th gen cars were an 'embarrassment' ...
Lots of opinions.
Lots of passion.
Lots of tempers.
NO DRIVING EXPERIENCE BEHIND THE WHEEL OF A 5TH GEN..............
So -- we all know that some of you want a light Camaro -- some as light as 3,300 pounds.
But -- and here's the stickler -- it appears that no one has 'skin' in this game -- and so IF you are wrong -- you can still go about your business....and there is no real 'risk' -- so to speak.
There are others who DO have 'skin' in the game -- and we have to answer to a lot of people.
Would I like a 3,300 pound Camaro that offers everything that this 5th gen will offer? BOY HOWDY.............
..............I'd ALSO like to go back to being -- oh -- I dunno -- about 26 years of age -- but - that ain't gonna happen.
If you SERIOUSLY believe that we can bring you a 3,500 pound Camaro -- with what this car offers --and bring it in at a CAMARO price..... you are -- forgive me - smoking something.
The car must sell a certain number each year to make the business case -- and from EVERYTHING I've seen -- a car that Charlie wants won't get us there...that's the sad fact.
So -- let's all calm down.
Let's chill a bit.
Let's consider that we may ALL be wrong here............
I mean -- what happens if you get behind the wheel of one of these "pigs" (your word, not mine) and ACTUALLY find a GRIN on your face????
Now -- a prediction: there will be a few that even if the car blows them away -- will not be able to say "great job" -- and to me, that's just sad.......
Now -- back to the games!
..........wow..................
I know PacerX and I respect the heck out of him.
But I also know "Dr. Heinricy" --
I know someone on here that thinks (and has stated on more than one occasion) that the 4th gen cars were an 'embarrassment' ...
Lots of opinions.
Lots of passion.
Lots of tempers.
NO DRIVING EXPERIENCE BEHIND THE WHEEL OF A 5TH GEN..............
So -- we all know that some of you want a light Camaro -- some as light as 3,300 pounds.
But -- and here's the stickler -- it appears that no one has 'skin' in this game -- and so IF you are wrong -- you can still go about your business....and there is no real 'risk' -- so to speak.
There are others who DO have 'skin' in the game -- and we have to answer to a lot of people.
Would I like a 3,300 pound Camaro that offers everything that this 5th gen will offer? BOY HOWDY.............
..............I'd ALSO like to go back to being -- oh -- I dunno -- about 26 years of age -- but - that ain't gonna happen.
If you SERIOUSLY believe that we can bring you a 3,500 pound Camaro -- with what this car offers --and bring it in at a CAMARO price..... you are -- forgive me - smoking something.
The car must sell a certain number each year to make the business case -- and from EVERYTHING I've seen -- a car that Charlie wants won't get us there...that's the sad fact.
So -- let's all calm down.
Let's chill a bit.
Let's consider that we may ALL be wrong here............
I mean -- what happens if you get behind the wheel of one of these "pigs" (your word, not mine) and ACTUALLY find a GRIN on your face????
Now -- a prediction: there will be a few that even if the car blows them away -- will not be able to say "great job" -- and to me, that's just sad.......
Now -- back to the games!
There have been a lot of complaints about this car and I've voiced my opinion on quite a few of them (how long it has taken, how much it weighs, and now this HUD thing). I've also come to the defense of people who complain about weight just because I think its a valid complaint. I don't mean to degrade the hard work that went into making this car and I know being an engineer myself that they worked hard to keep the weight down. I also know that they worked hard to make that weight as invisible as possible when your behind the wheel. I'll be glad when I finally get to sample their work. I'm proud to be a part of the Camaro cult (although I prefer to refer to you as Scott or Fbodfather, it just creeps me out when people just say 'father). Thanks for helping us keep the faith over the past 7 years and thanks for understanding that its our passion for the Camaro (and Firebird) that compells us to bring up every detail we aren't completely satisfied with.
Registered User
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,123
From: Melbourne, Australia
By far the best comparison one could make, given what's out there already, is the BMW M3... that car weighs around 3,600 lbs and its V8 is about line-ball with the LS3’s in mass. I wonder how BMW got its weight down? Well I’m glad you asked…
• All-new suspension with special, weight-optimised components as well as axle kinematics characteristic of BMW M for a highly dynamic driving experience, forged aluminium track control arms, compound high-performance brake system, optional Electronic Damper Control (EDC) with three freely available control maps.
•* First production vehicle in its segment with carbon-fibre-reinforced roof, carbon fibre serving to reduce the weight of the vehicle and enhance agility by lowering the centre of gravity, carbon-fibre roof in visible technology symbolising exclusivity and a direct link to motorsport.
Now, I wonder how much extra this would add to the cost over the SS Camaro? Don’t forget, the M3 is considerably smaller in every dimension.
Perhaps, GM will offer a stripper version for would-be racers?
PS I also have a complaint about the 5th Gen... GM still hasn't brought it to market fast enough... but that's hardly the fault of the car itself.
• All-new suspension with special, weight-optimised components as well as axle kinematics characteristic of BMW M for a highly dynamic driving experience, forged aluminium track control arms, compound high-performance brake system, optional Electronic Damper Control (EDC) with three freely available control maps.
•* First production vehicle in its segment with carbon-fibre-reinforced roof, carbon fibre serving to reduce the weight of the vehicle and enhance agility by lowering the centre of gravity, carbon-fibre roof in visible technology symbolising exclusivity and a direct link to motorsport.
Now, I wonder how much extra this would add to the cost over the SS Camaro? Don’t forget, the M3 is considerably smaller in every dimension.
Perhaps, GM will offer a stripper version for would-be racers?
PS I also have a complaint about the 5th Gen... GM still hasn't brought it to market fast enough... but that's hardly the fault of the car itself.
Last edited by SSbaby; Jul 24, 2008 at 12:16 AM.
Registered User
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 3,132
From: Santa Clara, CA
It'd be good to see how well a modern Camaro does overseas.
Registered User
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 16,176
From: Chicagoland IL
Oh **** Scott. I can't remember everything we've talked about. Help me out here. Are you saying that a smaller, lighter package can't be done? Or are you saying no one would want it?
Registered User
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,123
From: Melbourne, Australia
Atm, I don't really care about Holden/HSVs because the Camaro is far more desirable... TO ME!!! But that's the problem... Holden/HSV don't want Camaro to potentially cannibalize their domestic sales. A decision is expected within the next few months to decide on "will they or won't they"!
I remain hopeful as I'm sure the GM of today is more serious about its global presence...
Registered User
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 9,705
From: Oakland, California
By far the best comparison one could make, given what's out there already, is the BMW M3... that car weighs around 3,600 lbs and its V8 is about line-ball with the LS3’s in mass. I wonder how BMW got its weight down? Well I’m glad you asked…
• All-new suspension with special, weight-optimised components as well as axle kinematics characteristic of BMW M for a highly dynamic driving experience, forged aluminium track control arms, compound high-performance brake system, optional Electronic Damper Control (EDC) with three freely available control maps.
•* First production vehicle in its segment with carbon-fibre-reinforced roof, carbon fibre serving to reduce the weight of the vehicle and enhance agility by lowering the centre of gravity, carbon-fibre roof in visible technology symbolising exclusivity and a direct link to motorsport.
Now, I wonder how much extra this would add to the cost over the SS Camaro? Don’t forget, the M3 is considerably smaller in every dimension.
Perhaps, GM will offer a stripper version for would-be racers?
PS I also have a complaint about the 5th Gen... GM still hasn't brought it to market fast enough... but that's hardly the fault of the car itself.
• All-new suspension with special, weight-optimised components as well as axle kinematics characteristic of BMW M for a highly dynamic driving experience, forged aluminium track control arms, compound high-performance brake system, optional Electronic Damper Control (EDC) with three freely available control maps.
•* First production vehicle in its segment with carbon-fibre-reinforced roof, carbon fibre serving to reduce the weight of the vehicle and enhance agility by lowering the centre of gravity, carbon-fibre roof in visible technology symbolising exclusivity and a direct link to motorsport.
Now, I wonder how much extra this would add to the cost over the SS Camaro? Don’t forget, the M3 is considerably smaller in every dimension.
Perhaps, GM will offer a stripper version for would-be racers?
PS I also have a complaint about the 5th Gen... GM still hasn't brought it to market fast enough... but that's hardly the fault of the car itself.
BTW, I've owned an M3... and I'll never own another. Too small (compact) for my tastes and nothing like any Camaro I've ever owned or driven. No thank you.
Registered User
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 3,132
From: Santa Clara, CA
I've read his posts, and I didn't see either of those points. Charlie, this website provides a convenient search by poster function....
Registered User
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 9,705
From: Oakland, California
Registered User
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,123
From: Melbourne, Australia
The MSRP on a 2008 M3 is $59,400. A $60,000 Camaro would be a huge failure no matter how light it was. It's time to come back to reality guys.
BTW, I've owned an M3... and I'll never own another. Too small (compact) for my tastes and nothing like any Camaro I've ever owned or driven. No thank you.
BTW, I've owned an M3... and I'll never own another. Too small (compact) for my tastes and nothing like any Camaro I've ever owned or driven. No thank you.
PS If I want an RX-8, I'll buy one.
Registered User
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 3,132
From: Santa Clara, CA
One big point seems to be the "smaller platform" issue. If Charlie had been absolute dictator of GM in 2004, he could have insisted that the corporation build an Alpha, and then the Camaro team could have used that. But that was not a choice given to Team Camaro, as I understand it, leaving off whether a smaller M3-size Camaro would be a good thing or not, as I don't think there is unanimous opinion on that
I think the choice for Team Camaro was Zeta or nothing, and I think they did a really good job on Zeta, and it's miles better than nothing.
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,502
Honestly, I could bitch about GM building Chinese limousines instead of a global 3-series competitor, but what's done is done. The Camaro, as important as it is to US sales, is secondary in the overall strategy.
The Zeta Camaro is competitive with what's on the market, all quibbling beside.
The Zeta Camaro is competitive with what's on the market, all quibbling beside.
Last edited by flowmotion; Jul 24, 2008 at 02:21 AM.
Super Moderator
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 9,507
From: Okemos, MI
I'd venture to say, that among folks with lots of posts here, I might be one of the most abrasive. I'll bet dollars to doughnuts I've pissed off everybody within earshot here at one time or another with yet another opinion of mine or an uncalled-for flame. Winning a message board popularity contest is about as important to me as... well... I can't think of anything that unimportant at the moment.
That being said, I'm also pretty much an A#1 GM fanboy.
That being said, I'm also pretty much an A#1 GM fanboy.
And what, pray tell, does the good doctor think of the new Camaro?
The material cost savings to build the smaller M3 is probably no more than a couple thousand dollars. But all you need to do is look at the price to see that there are clearly other factors at play. You don't think it's all that fancy leather in the interior making up the $30-40,000 price difference, do you?
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,123
From: Melbourne, Australia
It's not that much smaller. A few inches here and there. But, you know what? When we're talking about common materials like steel and composite, making a 38" body panel (just throwing out a number) isn't all that much less expensive than making a 42" body panel. The vast majority of the cost of a given part in a car is in the design, engineering, and tooling to manufacture it, while the material cost is relatively tiny. In many cases, you have to add the cost of certification and testing too.
The material cost savings to build the smaller M3 is probably no more than a couple thousand dollars. But all you need to do is look at the price to see that there are clearly other factors at play. You don't think it's all that fancy leather in the interior making up the $30-40,000 price difference, do you?
The material cost savings to build the smaller M3 is probably no more than a couple thousand dollars. But all you need to do is look at the price to see that there are clearly other factors at play. You don't think it's all that fancy leather in the interior making up the $30-40,000 price difference, do you?
) Will you show the dimensions for comparison's sake or shall I? 
Personally, I prefer larger cars over smaller ones... but I don't go racing religiously (mainly b/c I have a young family to care for). Anyway, these days, I'd prefer to keep my cars stock and just cruise the weekends away. In answer to the BMW reference... BMW can charge what they want for their cars... they cater to the well heeled type. GM isn't perceived as being anywhere near that boat (unfortunately). I agree with what many are saying here... GM cannot do a BMW and expect a similar a$k.
That doesn't mean I disagree with the many respected members here (that's you PacerX) ... it's just that GM is stuck between a rock and hard place atm - not being able to appease to all the interest groups at the 11th hour. In that regard, IMO GM's got itself to blame because rarely has a car been as overexposed, over-opinionated by its target group and slow to arrive as the 5G. Now I know what Bob Lutz means when he ignores the collective opinion of design clinics... you simply cannot please the masses. For some reason, people expect BMW quality for Mustang money!
Appeasing the interests of just the drag racers is probably what caused the 4G to fail over time... therefore 5G is a departure from the 4G which failed to sell as well as Mustang. This time, 5G is essentially a modern 'back to the drawing board' redesign with little to no commonality with 4G. I can't say I blame GM for taking that approach.
Rome wasn't built in a day... what say we buy up the 5G and have GM build a more desirable car next time around so it sells to an even larger target audience?
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 2,979
The material cost savings to build the smaller M3 is probably no more than a couple thousand dollars. But all you need to do is look at the price to see that there are clearly other factors at play. You don't think it's all that fancy leather in the interior making up the $30-40,000 price difference, do you?
First, it's smaller. There's a mass reduction right there if you take an F5 and shrink it to those dimensions.
Second, it's more highly contented than the F5. Which adds mass (and a significant amount of cost) back in.
Does the higher sales price contribute at the same time to BMW's ability to use lighter weight materials? Sure... to a point. Other contributors are mentioned above.
Since the car is here, and radical redesigns are certainly not in the cards at this point, I think the question to ponder is not whether the car can drop to 3300 lbs., but maybe... Can it drop 160 lbs.?
