Do we really need the Z28?
08-01-2008, 03:52 PM
#31
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Look how well the 2003 Cobras did.
Supercharged block with a forged bottom end= endless possibilities for the aftermarket. The Cobra became the benchmark for high performance cars to measure themselves against for years. How many videos did we see of Cobras racing modded Vettes and Z06s?
The Z28/ZL1 could be the new benchmark.
Supercharged block with a forged bottom end= endless possibilities for the aftermarket. The Cobra became the benchmark for high performance cars to measure themselves against for years. How many videos did we see of Cobras racing modded Vettes and Z06s?
The Z28/ZL1 could be the new benchmark.
Last edited by Gripenfelter; 08-01-2008 at 04:02 PM.
08-01-2008, 04:15 PM
#32
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I know I will get a lot of disagreement on this but I think the secret to the Z28 of a new generation lies in shaving weight and turbo-charging the DI V6 while keeping it affordable. I'm not sure what the strength of the DI V6 is or how hard it would be to shave the weight once you add turbo(s), cooling, etc. but I think GM could do it and it would be great. We as old school fans just need to get over the "It's gotta have a V8"
In the late 60's, Big Blocks were king but due to SCCA regulations, the Z28 couldn't use a Big Block so GM had to get creative and it was out of the box thinking that made history. Time to repeat but with a modern interpretation.
Now to contradict myself- Would I buy a Z28 that I just described? No. I'm hoping for a limited ZL1 with an LS9. But I'm not GM's target market.
In the late 60's, Big Blocks were king but due to SCCA regulations, the Z28 couldn't use a Big Block so GM had to get creative and it was out of the box thinking that made history. Time to repeat but with a modern interpretation.
Now to contradict myself- Would I buy a Z28 that I just described? No. I'm hoping for a limited ZL1 with an LS9. But I'm not GM's target market.
08-01-2008, 04:44 PM
#34
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Listen carefully to anyone of importantance reading this post: WE NEVER WANTED A GT500 COPY WHEN WE SAID WE WANTED A GT500 FIGHTER. TWO DIFFERENT THINGS HERE.
For all the times we have had polls here, we have wanted the Z28 to destroy the top M*stang yes, but not with the same S/Ced, heavy, brick on wheels formula. I think we figured Chevy would/could do better than that. We wanted a better engine than the SS, lighter weight, way better suspension, bigger brakes, maybe even have it slightly decontented, and of course look the part. A Camaro "Z06" but with its own distinctions, or the 1LE treatment. Wanting to turn the Z into a non-handling, super heavy "performance" car is not the answer, that is F*rds way, not ours. It doesn't follow the formula of the Z/28, Z28, IROC-Z28, or 1LE. All of those options made the car a better OVERALL PERFORMER and not significantly heavier.
This makes sense and all, but I feel that the Z28 should be able to beat the top M*stang in every way without adding an S/C and making it so much heavier. Chevy should only come out with a ZL1 or Camaro "ZR1" if the times allow a few years from now and they want to put an exclaimation point on it the way the Corvette is doing now. The Z06 basically took out all competitors, the ZR1 just furthers it. The fact is Z28 is the Camaro "brand" and not ZL1 or SS. YES there needs to be a Z28, but NOT in the way they want to bring it back. We wont see many on the streets. If it's not possible to change the program now, at least let the buyers be able to give it the 1LE treatment to lighten it up some for a credit or something.
For all the times we have had polls here, we have wanted the Z28 to destroy the top M*stang yes, but not with the same S/Ced, heavy, brick on wheels formula. I think we figured Chevy would/could do better than that. We wanted a better engine than the SS, lighter weight, way better suspension, bigger brakes, maybe even have it slightly decontented, and of course look the part. A Camaro "Z06" but with its own distinctions, or the 1LE treatment. Wanting to turn the Z into a non-handling, super heavy "performance" car is not the answer, that is F*rds way, not ours. It doesn't follow the formula of the Z/28, Z28, IROC-Z28, or 1LE. All of those options made the car a better OVERALL PERFORMER and not significantly heavier.
- Base Camaro - for everyone - like a base automatic/convertible Corvette - people that want to look good in it.
- SS Camaro - for the enthusiast - like the Z51 Corvette manual - people that are serious about their performance car
- Z28 Camaro - for the hardcore - like the Z06 Corvette - These is the top dog that your average Joe can dream and if they really want it will buy
- ZL1 Camaro - for the rich - like the ZR1 Corvette - Only rich bastards will buy it but it is nice to know Chevy has it out.
Last edited by IZ28; 08-01-2008 at 04:51 PM.
08-01-2008, 04:49 PM
#35
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I agree with you here....
the ZL1 if we get so lucky to get one should compete with the GT500 same price range... focus on total destruction of anything on wheels..
Maybe we should have something along these lines:
the ZL1 if we get so lucky to get one should compete with the GT500 same price range... focus on total destruction of anything on wheels..
Maybe we should have something along these lines:
- Base Camaro - for everyone - like a base automatic/convertible Corvette - people that want to look good in it.
- SS Camaro - for the enthusiast - like the Z51 Corvette manual - people that are serious about their performance car
- Z28 Camaro - for the hardcore - like the Z06 Corvette - These is the top dog that your average Joe can dream and if they really want it will buy
- ZL1 Camaro - for the rich - like the ZR1 Corvette - Only rich bastards will buy it but it is nice to know Chevy has it out.
- Base Camaro - for everyone - like a base automatic/convertible Corvette - people that want to look good in it.
- SS Camaro - for the enthusiast - like the Z51 Corvette manual - people that are serious about their performance car
- SS 1LE same as SS with the addition of a 4th Gen type 1LE package. Possibly Suspension sway bars. and or brakes an Eye toward the M3
- Z28 Camaro - for the hardcore - like the Z06 Corvette - These is the top dog that your average Joe can dream and if they really want it will buy
- ZL1 Camaro - for the rich - like the ZR1 Corvette - Only rich bastards will buy it but it is nice to know Chevy has it out.
Last edited by 5thgen69camaro; 08-01-2008 at 04:52 PM.
08-01-2008, 04:59 PM
#36
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Make a Z28, but instead of adding gobs of power make it light and nimble. Make it a road racer. Slim it way down and maybe tweak the LS3 a little. Or better, come up with a smaller higher revving engine. Possibly turbocharged. M6 only no autos. Shoot for 3400lbs and maybe 450hp?
08-01-2008, 05:02 PM
#37
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If that all came standard...I think I'd have to consider it.
08-01-2008, 06:03 PM
#38
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i think we need a Z28, and it's ok if it costs 40k... but i dont think it should be made in the example of the GT500.. it should be quicker than the GT500 but have that be done by weight reduction and mild horsepower gains on the LS3 somehow.. make it 450hp or something and use all the money that would go towards the LSA or whatever, towards some kind of weight reduction.. i dont know how it could be done, i dont know how much it would cost to be done.. but if they could remove 400+lbs off the SS, and add about 50hp, it would be a killer car
08-01-2008, 06:06 PM
#39
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I just read another thread completely on this subject, and I came away with the feeling that Chevrolet doesn't need a 500+ horsepower Z28. Let me clarify.
The Z28 idea last I heard was essentially a Shelby GT500 competitor. A supercharged, large V8 engine, a mammoth braking system, a heavier suspension, and with the Camaro's independenty rear suspension, a weight that would clear the 4000 pound mark, and most likely (given the inherent added weight of superchargers, intercoolers, and related increases needed in cooling capacity and related hardware) would likely be well within spitting distance of 4200 pounds. There would be only 5,000 made annually (less than the Corvettes sold in just 6 weeks) and would carry a MSRP over $40K plus gas guzzler tax, have dealer markups pushing it into the $50,000 to $60,000 range, and like the GT500, would likely be seen only at enthusiasts shows, or on summer days or areas where the weather is perfect. Likely driven by a guy who has an expensive German import in his garage as a daily driver.
It's obvious that thread I read has plenty of delusional people. Those who not only act as if they are going to buy one, but those who think a car like this is going to end up at the dragstrip every week. To be honest, all in al, it's pretty entertaining.
Truth is, these cars are going to be extraordinarily rare. You'll see them about 1/3 less often than you will a GT500 of the same year (and perhaps 90% less overall since the GT500 has been out a few years already). There aren't many people who are going to pass up a Z06 (or even a normal Corvette) if there's a Camaro sitting in the showroom with an out-the-door price of $60 large. And, unless your income is six figures, lets face it, you aren't likely going to be buying one.
So, what's the point of the Z28 as it's currently layed out? Magazine bragging rights? Something to chear about? If so, why use a name that has been synominous with affordable performance on a mass production scale?
Even using the LS7 engine (which costs over 15,000 alone) doesn't help.
I don't think we need this Z28.
Call it a ZL1 instead, and make the Z28 something else.
Comments?
The Z28 idea last I heard was essentially a Shelby GT500 competitor. A supercharged, large V8 engine, a mammoth braking system, a heavier suspension, and with the Camaro's independenty rear suspension, a weight that would clear the 4000 pound mark, and most likely (given the inherent added weight of superchargers, intercoolers, and related increases needed in cooling capacity and related hardware) would likely be well within spitting distance of 4200 pounds. There would be only 5,000 made annually (less than the Corvettes sold in just 6 weeks) and would carry a MSRP over $40K plus gas guzzler tax, have dealer markups pushing it into the $50,000 to $60,000 range, and like the GT500, would likely be seen only at enthusiasts shows, or on summer days or areas where the weather is perfect. Likely driven by a guy who has an expensive German import in his garage as a daily driver.
It's obvious that thread I read has plenty of delusional people. Those who not only act as if they are going to buy one, but those who think a car like this is going to end up at the dragstrip every week. To be honest, all in al, it's pretty entertaining.
Truth is, these cars are going to be extraordinarily rare. You'll see them about 1/3 less often than you will a GT500 of the same year (and perhaps 90% less overall since the GT500 has been out a few years already). There aren't many people who are going to pass up a Z06 (or even a normal Corvette) if there's a Camaro sitting in the showroom with an out-the-door price of $60 large. And, unless your income is six figures, lets face it, you aren't likely going to be buying one.
So, what's the point of the Z28 as it's currently layed out? Magazine bragging rights? Something to chear about? If so, why use a name that has been synominous with affordable performance on a mass production scale?
Even using the LS7 engine (which costs over 15,000 alone) doesn't help.
I don't think we need this Z28.
Call it a ZL1 instead, and make the Z28 something else.
Comments?
Couldn't agree more. The out of the park, totally for the extremely well-heeled, limited production car should be called ZL-1. Or, why call it anything? Slap big blue bowties on each end and make it a modern day COPO car. Sleeper except for the blue bowties. I don't know, might be kind of cool.
I said many months back that the hierarchy should be this way, and that the Z28 should be affordable, as light as a V8 could be, and be the best handling of the bunch. The Z28 has never been an ultra limited production car, and to me, and I think a lot of other folks, it's been the coolest designation associated with the Camaro and has also been unique to the Camaro. I think calling the V8 car SS is a mistake, honestly. I truly think it would be more historically true to the brand to call it Z28.
If not though, maybe when the DI V8 becomes available, they could call that car the Z28, and leave the LS3 car the SS, though I know that by the time that motor debuts, they'll probably deep six the LS3. Anyway, maybe they'll have a change of heart, and call the V8 car Z28, though I do doubt it.
08-01-2008, 07:05 PM
#40
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Considering NEW corvettes are selling for 40,000 these days (they're strippers but still vettes), I think I can see why the top dog maro was killed off. You'd have to be on some good stuff if you'd take a 4300+ porker over a 3200 vette. HP isn't everything you know.
08-01-2008, 07:18 PM
#41
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Just a thought here but if GM were working on a direct injection 6.2L engine that might be a good Z/28 engine.
The 3.6 DI has more HP than engines of the same size and the same or better economy.
The 3.6 puts out 300HP in a small package I would think if the power goes the same way for a V8 if it were 6.2L 500HP would not be a far reach and the economy would be as good or better than the LS3.
The 3.6 DI has more HP than engines of the same size and the same or better economy.
The 3.6 puts out 300HP in a small package I would think if the power goes the same way for a V8 if it were 6.2L 500HP would not be a far reach and the economy would be as good or better than the LS3.
08-01-2008, 08:19 PM
#43
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I totally agree with you, I know its finally got me thinking.
truthfully speaking though theres really no place for a 50k camaro, there might not even be one for a 40k one. 50k and all but a VERY few are going to a vette, I know I would, even at 40k a vette at a slightly higher price would be very tempting. the gt500 works for ford because they do not have anything above it, its their top of the line, they had the gt40 but 1 they quit making it and it was 100k. as for dodge and the challenger the srt8s 42k, but then the next step up from that is the viper, again right around 90k. but when youre standing there looking at a 40k camaro, it would probably be more also, and theres a 45k vette sitting next to it what would you pick?? I know what I would do.
Last edited by loki993; 08-01-2008 at 08:26 PM.
08-01-2008, 08:30 PM
#44
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Make a Z28, but instead of adding gobs of power make it light and nimble. Make it a road racer. Slim it way down and maybe tweak the LS3 a little. Or better, come up with a smaller higher revving engine. Possibly turbocharged. M6 only no autos. Shoot for 3400lbs and maybe 450hp?
this would be the perfect z/28, this is what the z/28 was meant to be from the beginning and what it should be. maybe rework a 5.3, make it high strung as hell like the DZ, shave weight wherever possible while still keeping most of the amenities, I know theres the hardcore out there but some of us still like some creature comforts, make it nimble, fast and corner like a slotcar and id be in line.
