Do we really need the Z28?
08-01-2008, 11:40 AM
#1
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Do we really need the Z28?
I just read another thread completely on this subject, and I came away with the feeling that Chevrolet doesn't need a 500+ horsepower Z28. Let me clarify.
The Z28 idea last I heard was essentially a Shelby GT500 competitor. A supercharged, large V8 engine, a mammoth braking system, a heavier suspension, and with the Camaro's independenty rear suspension, a weight that would clear the 4000 pound mark, and most likely (given the inherent added weight of superchargers, intercoolers, and related increases needed in cooling capacity and related hardware) would likely be well within spitting distance of 4200 pounds. There would be only 5,000 made annually (less than the Corvettes sold in just 6 weeks) and would carry a MSRP over $40K plus gas guzzler tax, have dealer markups pushing it into the $50,000 to $60,000 range, and like the GT500, would likely be seen only at enthusiasts shows, or on summer days or areas where the weather is perfect. Likely driven by a guy who has an expensive German import in his garage as a daily driver.
It's obvious that thread I read has plenty of delusional people. Those who not only act as if they are going to buy one, but those who think a car like this is going to end up at the dragstrip every week. To be honest, all in al, it's pretty entertaining.
Truth is, these cars are going to be extraordinarily rare. You'll see them about 1/3 less often than you will a GT500 of the same year (and perhaps 90% less overall since the GT500 has been out a few years already). There aren't many people who are going to pass up a Z06 (or even a normal Corvette) if there's a Camaro sitting in the showroom with an out-the-door price of $60 large. And, unless your income is six figures, lets face it, you aren't likely going to be buying one.
So, what's the point of the Z28 as it's currently layed out? Magazine bragging rights? Something to chear about? If so, why use a name that has been synominous with affordable performance on a mass production scale?
Even using the LS7 engine (which costs over 15,000 alone) doesn't help.
I don't think we need this Z28.
Call it a ZL1 instead, and make the Z28 something else.
Comments?
The Z28 idea last I heard was essentially a Shelby GT500 competitor. A supercharged, large V8 engine, a mammoth braking system, a heavier suspension, and with the Camaro's independenty rear suspension, a weight that would clear the 4000 pound mark, and most likely (given the inherent added weight of superchargers, intercoolers, and related increases needed in cooling capacity and related hardware) would likely be well within spitting distance of 4200 pounds. There would be only 5,000 made annually (less than the Corvettes sold in just 6 weeks) and would carry a MSRP over $40K plus gas guzzler tax, have dealer markups pushing it into the $50,000 to $60,000 range, and like the GT500, would likely be seen only at enthusiasts shows, or on summer days or areas where the weather is perfect. Likely driven by a guy who has an expensive German import in his garage as a daily driver.
It's obvious that thread I read has plenty of delusional people. Those who not only act as if they are going to buy one, but those who think a car like this is going to end up at the dragstrip every week. To be honest, all in al, it's pretty entertaining.
Truth is, these cars are going to be extraordinarily rare. You'll see them about 1/3 less often than you will a GT500 of the same year (and perhaps 90% less overall since the GT500 has been out a few years already). There aren't many people who are going to pass up a Z06 (or even a normal Corvette) if there's a Camaro sitting in the showroom with an out-the-door price of $60 large. And, unless your income is six figures, lets face it, you aren't likely going to be buying one.
So, what's the point of the Z28 as it's currently layed out? Magazine bragging rights? Something to chear about? If so, why use a name that has been synominous with affordable performance on a mass production scale?
Even using the LS7 engine (which costs over 15,000 alone) doesn't help.
I don't think we need this Z28.
Call it a ZL1 instead, and make the Z28 something else.
Comments?
08-01-2008, 11:46 AM
#2
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Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 163
All that leading me on to believe your arguement was about the actual car being built only to find out it was really just about the name?
I think you could have made a shorter version. Maybe.
Should it be called a z28 or zr1?
I'd prefer the SS to be the top dog and Z28 be what's coming out now, but in the end 50% of the people feel the otherway so whatever I don't care.
I think you could have made a shorter version. Maybe.
Should it be called a z28 or zr1?
I'd prefer the SS to be the top dog and Z28 be what's coming out now, but in the end 50% of the people feel the otherway so whatever I don't care.
08-01-2008, 11:48 AM
#3
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Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 2,979
I just read another thread completely on this subject, and I came away with the feeling that Chevrolet doesn't need a 500+ horsepower Z28. Let me clarify.
The Z28 idea last I heard was essentially a Shelby GT500 competitor. A supercharged, large V8 engine, a mammoth braking system, a heavier suspension, and with the Camaro's independenty rear suspension, a weight that would clear the 4000 pound mark, and most likely (given the inherent added weight of superchargers, intercoolers, and related increases needed in cooling capacity and related hardware) would likely be well within spitting distance of 4200 pounds. There would be only 5,000 made annually (less than the Corvettes sold in just 6 weeks) and would carry a MSRP over $40K plus gas guzzler tax, have dealer markups pushing it into the $50,000 to $60,000 range, and like the GT500, would likely be seen only at enthusiasts shows, or on summer days or areas where the weather is perfect. Likely driven by a guy who has an expensive German import in his garage as a daily driver.
It's obvious that thread I read has plenty of delusional people. Those who not only act as if they are going to buy one, but those who think a car like this is going to end up at the dragstrip every week. To be honest, all in al, it's pretty entertaining.
Truth is, these cars are going to be extraordinarily rare. You'll see them about 1/3 less often than you will a GT500 of the same year (and perhaps 90% less overall since the GT500 has been out a few years already). There aren't many people who are going to pass up a Z06 (or even a normal Corvette) if there's a Camaro sitting in the showroom with an out-the-door price of $60 large. And, unless your income is six figures, lets face it, you aren't likely going to be buying one.
So, what's the point of the Z28 as it's currently layed out? Magazine bragging rights? Something to chear about? If so, why use a name that has been synominous with affordable performance on a mass production scale?
Even using the LS7 engine (which costs over 15,000 alone) doesn't help.
I don't think we need this Z28.
Call it a ZL1 instead, and make the Z28 something else.
Comments?
The Z28 idea last I heard was essentially a Shelby GT500 competitor. A supercharged, large V8 engine, a mammoth braking system, a heavier suspension, and with the Camaro's independenty rear suspension, a weight that would clear the 4000 pound mark, and most likely (given the inherent added weight of superchargers, intercoolers, and related increases needed in cooling capacity and related hardware) would likely be well within spitting distance of 4200 pounds. There would be only 5,000 made annually (less than the Corvettes sold in just 6 weeks) and would carry a MSRP over $40K plus gas guzzler tax, have dealer markups pushing it into the $50,000 to $60,000 range, and like the GT500, would likely be seen only at enthusiasts shows, or on summer days or areas where the weather is perfect. Likely driven by a guy who has an expensive German import in his garage as a daily driver.
It's obvious that thread I read has plenty of delusional people. Those who not only act as if they are going to buy one, but those who think a car like this is going to end up at the dragstrip every week. To be honest, all in al, it's pretty entertaining.
Truth is, these cars are going to be extraordinarily rare. You'll see them about 1/3 less often than you will a GT500 of the same year (and perhaps 90% less overall since the GT500 has been out a few years already). There aren't many people who are going to pass up a Z06 (or even a normal Corvette) if there's a Camaro sitting in the showroom with an out-the-door price of $60 large. And, unless your income is six figures, lets face it, you aren't likely going to be buying one.
So, what's the point of the Z28 as it's currently layed out? Magazine bragging rights? Something to chear about? If so, why use a name that has been synominous with affordable performance on a mass production scale?
Even using the LS7 engine (which costs over 15,000 alone) doesn't help.
I don't think we need this Z28.
Call it a ZL1 instead, and make the Z28 something else.
Comments?
I do think that GM needs to seize the performance edge from the GT 500 vs. the SS.
A also think that it has to be done economically. In other words, it has to stay significantly UNDER the Corvette in price.
A $50,000 Camaro is going to go over like a fart in church, I don't care if it has 600hp, a 20mm Gatling gun, and Hellfire missiles on it and comes with a free blonde hottie who washes it in the nude every day for a week.
*
08-01-2008, 12:10 PM
#6
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Annapolis MD
Posts: 2,802
I just read another thread completely on this subject, and I came away with the feeling that Chevrolet doesn't need a 500+ horsepower Z28. Let me clarify.
The Z28 idea last I heard was essentially a Shelby GT500 competitor. A supercharged, large V8 engine, a mammoth braking system, a heavier suspension, and with the Camaro's independenty rear suspension, a weight that would h or areas where the weather is perfect. Likely driven by a guy who has an expensive German import in his garage as a daily driver.
It's obvious that thread I read has plenty of delusional people. Those who not only act as if they are going to buy one, but those who think a car like this is going to end up at the dragstrip every week. To be honest, all in al, it's pretty entertaining.
Truth is, these cars are going to be extraordinarily rare. You'll see them about 1/3 less often than you will a GT500 of the same year (and perhaps 90% less overall since the GT500 has been out a few years already). There aren't many people who are going to pass up a Z06 (or even a normal Corvette) if there's a Camaro sitting in the showroom with an out-the-door price of $60 large. And, unless your income is six figures, lets face it, you aren't likely going to be buying one.
So, what's the point of the Z28 as it's currently layed out? Magazine bragging rights? Something to chear about? If so, why use a name that has been synominous with affordable performance on a mass production scale?
Even using the LS7 engine (which costs over 15,000 alone) doesn't help.
I don't think we need this Z28.
Call it a ZL1 instead, and make the Z28 something else.
Comments?
The Z28 idea last I heard was essentially a Shelby GT500 competitor. A supercharged, large V8 engine, a mammoth braking system, a heavier suspension, and with the Camaro's independenty rear suspension, a weight that would h or areas where the weather is perfect. Likely driven by a guy who has an expensive German import in his garage as a daily driver.
It's obvious that thread I read has plenty of delusional people. Those who not only act as if they are going to buy one, but those who think a car like this is going to end up at the dragstrip every week. To be honest, all in al, it's pretty entertaining.
Truth is, these cars are going to be extraordinarily rare. You'll see them about 1/3 less often than you will a GT500 of the same year (and perhaps 90% less overall since the GT500 has been out a few years already). There aren't many people who are going to pass up a Z06 (or even a normal Corvette) if there's a Camaro sitting in the showroom with an out-the-door price of $60 large. And, unless your income is six figures, lets face it, you aren't likely going to be buying one.
So, what's the point of the Z28 as it's currently layed out? Magazine bragging rights? Something to chear about? If so, why use a name that has been synominous with affordable performance on a mass production scale?
Even using the LS7 engine (which costs over 15,000 alone) doesn't help.
I don't think we need this Z28.
Call it a ZL1 instead, and make the Z28 something else.
Comments?
ZL1's were some of the coolest 69 cars and yet they never had the dignity of a badge. They shared parts of the SS(which also shared parts with Z28) They were super rare like the current ZR1. They were also big blocks with gobs of HP. LS9 of its time. Where as the Z28 idea might be concerned of the weight of a supercharger, the ZL1 might throw it on if it was benificial.
08-01-2008, 12:11 PM
#7
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Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 2,979
Nobody with the coin to buy a ZR1 is going to walk into a Chevrolet dealership, see a Camaro... ANY CAMARO... and decide to buy it instead.
Nobody.
He might buy a Camaro ALSO, but he sure as hell ain't making an either/or choice in the favor of the Camaro.
Just.
Aint.
Happening.
I honestly can't understand why you can't see that...
*
08-01-2008, 12:15 PM
#8
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Join Date: Nov 1998
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 214
Absolutely we need a Z28.
One, I don't want a Camaro without the name Z28 applied to it in some form.
Two, while 422/400 is very nice horsepower number for many people, it doesn't cut it as a top dawg horsepower number. We basically had 345 horsepower from 1998 to 2002, I know it was only rated at 305 but dyno tests generally proved that it was making the same as the Corvette spec LS1. From 2002 to 2010, I think we need a big bump up in horsepower to maintain ground superiority. We've discussed the GT500. MB has been cranking out ~500 horsepower AMG V8s since 2003. The M5 has 500 horsepower. I want to run with them. The LS engine family has advanced since then to the point that you've got all these wonderful LSx variants that can make some beautiful horsepower numbers. Let's throw that LSA under the dang hood! I want a Camaro that can, from a roll, smoke 99.5% of the other stock cars out there. 422/400 isn't going to do it. I don't want to have to rely on aftermarket mods if I don't have to - I'd like the option of buing it straight from the factory.
One, I don't want a Camaro without the name Z28 applied to it in some form.
Two, while 422/400 is very nice horsepower number for many people, it doesn't cut it as a top dawg horsepower number. We basically had 345 horsepower from 1998 to 2002, I know it was only rated at 305 but dyno tests generally proved that it was making the same as the Corvette spec LS1. From 2002 to 2010, I think we need a big bump up in horsepower to maintain ground superiority. We've discussed the GT500. MB has been cranking out ~500 horsepower AMG V8s since 2003. The M5 has 500 horsepower. I want to run with them. The LS engine family has advanced since then to the point that you've got all these wonderful LSx variants that can make some beautiful horsepower numbers. Let's throw that LSA under the dang hood! I want a Camaro that can, from a roll, smoke 99.5% of the other stock cars out there. 422/400 isn't going to do it. I don't want to have to rely on aftermarket mods if I don't have to - I'd like the option of buing it straight from the factory.
08-01-2008, 12:42 PM
#10
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Location: Gotham City
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I don't think we need a Z28 like that due to the economy and GM's current financial situation.
I don't even care if it gets the LSA. If they have to make a compromise, then give it a slight bump in power and make it visually more aggressive with slightly lowered and stiffer suspension and diff wheels and the usual round of visual cues/nameplates/embroidery/plaques/etc..., like the 4th SS to the Z28....
I don't even care if it gets the LSA. If they have to make a compromise, then give it a slight bump in power and make it visually more aggressive with slightly lowered and stiffer suspension and diff wheels and the usual round of visual cues/nameplates/embroidery/plaques/etc..., like the 4th SS to the Z28....
08-01-2008, 01:05 PM
#12
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For the love of God, I wish people would stop throwing out the ZL1 name as if it was ever a regular production option. There were only 69 ZL1s, they were all COPOs available only for one year, they were powered by aluminum big blocks and they never had any badging. Please don't include the aftermarket 4th gen ZL1s because they were special dealer one-offs ala Yenko, Dana, Baldwin-Motion, etc.
To put it plain and simple, what I am expecting from GM out of the 5th gen Z28 is the best performing Camaro ever, across the board, all categories, that competes evenly or defeats the competition (i.e. Mustang, Challenger, etc.). Please don't say such a car would steal sales away from Corvette. I consider myself a primary purchaser for such a car, and quite frankly I could go out and buy a new Z06 today if I wanted to, but I won't because I'm a Camaro guy. If Camaro meant nothing to me, I'd have a GT500 in my driveway already. But it does. So I don't.
On another note... if GM offered dealer installed bolt-ons to the SS that accomplishes this all with a factory warranty, I'd be happy just the same. However don't attempt to create a case for a theoretical stripper V8 because quite frankly they wouldn't sell enough of them to be profitable.
To put it plain and simple, what I am expecting from GM out of the 5th gen Z28 is the best performing Camaro ever, across the board, all categories, that competes evenly or defeats the competition (i.e. Mustang, Challenger, etc.). Please don't say such a car would steal sales away from Corvette. I consider myself a primary purchaser for such a car, and quite frankly I could go out and buy a new Z06 today if I wanted to, but I won't because I'm a Camaro guy. If Camaro meant nothing to me, I'd have a GT500 in my driveway already. But it does. So I don't.
On another note... if GM offered dealer installed bolt-ons to the SS that accomplishes this all with a factory warranty, I'd be happy just the same. However don't attempt to create a case for a theoretical stripper V8 because quite frankly they wouldn't sell enough of them to be profitable.
08-01-2008, 01:11 PM
#13
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I don't know if I'd call the top performance GT500 like car a Z28. Because the Z28 was never that. The problem is the Z28 is the best brand model of the Camaro. It's survived and I think as we've seen on these boards it's a powerful force to the Camaro. While I don't see it going back to the origional formula; road racing package built for the street to allow GM race in Trans Am. So smaller displacement V8, high revving, better suspension at an affordable price.
I have a feeling that to GM and the way that the best brands are the most expensive, fastest and most powerful these days then the Z28 will probably fall into that category.
IMO 550hp Camaro with all the upgrades and price hike with low production numbers that this 5th gen variant will probably have is more ZL1 or something new to me.
But where does that leave the Z28? I think to many if it's not lighter and more affordable GM should not use the name. I just can't imagine the Camaro w/o it.
No blonde hottie is FREE! 
But I'd still go for the deal as I think the gatling gun and hellfire missiles could help me clear some lanes through LA traffic.
I have a feeling that to GM and the way that the best brands are the most expensive, fastest and most powerful these days then the Z28 will probably fall into that category.
IMO 550hp Camaro with all the upgrades and price hike with low production numbers that this 5th gen variant will probably have is more ZL1 or something new to me.
But where does that leave the Z28? I think to many if it's not lighter and more affordable GM should not use the name. I just can't imagine the Camaro w/o it.
But I'd still go for the deal as I think the gatling gun and hellfire missiles could help me clear some lanes through LA traffic.
08-01-2008, 01:16 PM
#14
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$40k isn't an awful price. I'd be in the market for it at that price. $50k-60k is not where it needs to be.
I think we (I) need the Z28, but GM doesn't need it and that's the bigger statement right now.
I think we (I) need the Z28, but GM doesn't need it and that's the bigger statement right now.
08-01-2008, 01:47 PM
#15
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Well the thing is with all the people coming in daily to bitch about the Z28 I can see Chevy saying **** it we're not building it! Car isn't even out and all you read on here is a group that constantly complain about it. If you don't like it don't buy it, but don't ruin it for the people out there that want this GT500 killer. Go get an SS and do whatever you want to make it into a corner carver. Let me just add my name to the minority here that actually want this car to come with the LSA 550hp motor. I'm specifically holding off on 0% on a brand new Vette waiting for this thing. As cash strapped as GM is right now we need all the help we can get and this car is probably 2 years away if at all.