Do we really need the Z28?
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 287
From: Richmond, VA
not exactly what I was trying to do. Some reason I thought the Z/28 shared the SS rear leaf springs. Anyway I was making an arguement for a modernday "COPO" Camaro in the Spirit of the 69 COPO Car. I was trying to use the Z28 as a reference point...
I guess youre refering to Charlies post but the whole top dog is a red herring to me. If you got that from my post I didnt explain myself well at all. That certainly wasnt what I was doing. Top dog doesnt even have a solid meaning but the monikers SS Z/28 COPO do and are NOT interchangeable. Piggins didnt just develop a Z/28, he came up with the ZL1 as well
You could have say (without any meaning whatsoever) that Z/28 would be "top dog" but it cant be forced induction and it has to blah blah and come in a certain price point. Well if a Z/28 has to be naturally aspirated for instance and is top dog then what do we call a car that say for arguments sake got an LS9? or something similar in the way of ZR1? Again I dont expect such a car to be built, but Im just saying should one be built, there is a moniker deserving of such a limited car monster, and as many Z/28 fans who hate the idea of a non naturally aspirated Z/28 have said many times mentioned, Z/28 does not fit such a car. ZR1 or COPO does and giving ZR1 or COPO a car deserving of the badge is due. I dont know how else to put it. Both amazing vehicles in their own right. both fit modern translations very well. If done correctly all could hit the streets they could be the same ideas as the originals and unfortunately the meaningless "topdog" arguemnts would continue
I guess youre refering to Charlies post but the whole top dog is a red herring to me. If you got that from my post I didnt explain myself well at all. That certainly wasnt what I was doing. Top dog doesnt even have a solid meaning but the monikers SS Z/28 COPO do and are NOT interchangeable. Piggins didnt just develop a Z/28, he came up with the ZL1 as well
You could have say (without any meaning whatsoever) that Z/28 would be "top dog" but it cant be forced induction and it has to blah blah and come in a certain price point. Well if a Z/28 has to be naturally aspirated for instance and is top dog then what do we call a car that say for arguments sake got an LS9? or something similar in the way of ZR1? Again I dont expect such a car to be built, but Im just saying should one be built, there is a moniker deserving of such a limited car monster, and as many Z/28 fans who hate the idea of a non naturally aspirated Z/28 have said many times mentioned, Z/28 does not fit such a car. ZR1 or COPO does and giving ZR1 or COPO a car deserving of the badge is due. I dont know how else to put it. Both amazing vehicles in their own right. both fit modern translations very well. If done correctly all could hit the streets they could be the same ideas as the originals and unfortunately the meaningless "topdog" arguemnts would continue
Clyde
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 2,802
From: Annapolis MD
I don't have a listing handy for the SS spring rates, but having owned a '69 Z/28 in '69 (and having driven many other Camaros during that era including a '67 RS I bought in '67), I'm pretty certain that the Z/28 had higher spring rates, so a stiffer ride and crisper handling, less body roll. Just as the COPO was not a "model" (simply Camaros ordered with options outside of the regular RPO options), the very few ZL1 Camaros produced in the first gen. (sixty nine were built in 1969, none before, none after) were not a model either, just another COPO engine package that was called ZL1 with no identifying ZL1 emblems on the car. I only offer this info in order to correct data I see posted that I feel is incorrect, interpret the data however you want to.
Clyde
Clyde
Last edited by 5thgen69camaro; Aug 6, 2008 at 05:56 PM.
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Posts: 287
From: Richmond, VA
Well it came out of necessity to enter a specific type of racing NHRA exactly as the Z/28 had devloped to enter SCCA. The similarity extends to the same man created both the Z/28 and ZL1 COPO cars. It was only politics of not officially putting huge engines in small cars, preventing the COPO ZL1 from having a name, badge or having to use the Central Office Production Order at all. The cars came from the factory as is. If the politics at the time did not exit it would have an RPO code comperable to the Z28 and Z27(SS) and would also have a name. I do realize that I seem to be alone on this one here though. I think its strange but I do realize it.
I understand exactly what you are saying, but there are probably many on this forum that never heard of a ZL1 Camaro until they stumbled on this thread (and I can assure you that the general population of the world is not cognizant of what a ZL1 Camaro was). Unfortunately "if, shoulda, woulda, and coulda" can apply to many things, but we are left with the reality of what did or didn't happen. We can wish things had been different in the past or that the future will be different, it's obvious we can't change the past, but we can offer suggestions and ideas for the future and hope they are adopted. And I can see a valid suggestion in what you are posting. The point to remember is that we can all offer suggestions and others may like them or not, just a we can choose to like or not like their suggestions. I have pretty strong ideas about what I think a new Z/28 should be (former new '69 Z/28 owner, that's where the original heritage lies in my mind), I don't think my wants will come to fruition, but if they do build a new Z/28 I'll still be happy to see it back, even if it doesn't fit my personal definition. Will I buy it if they make it? That depends on if I like it or not, at this point I could probably make do with a new SS and do some mods to reach my desired goal, so I don't "have" to buy a Z/28 if I don't like what is offered. But I sure would like to have a Z/28 in my driveway again.Clyde
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I see no problem with letting "Z28" follow the other "Z" car "Z06" formula. Even tho many of us can't afford one new, at least not now.
The sales numbers for the "Z06" seem good enough for GM to continue making them. And I'm sure the "SS" or "RS" or Coupes would out sell them by leaps and bounds, so what?
There will still be those willing to pay more for, and wanting a more exotic Camaro, just as there are Corvettes.
Dedicated racers will always remove the weight they don't want anyways, and won't opt for a more expensive "Z28" to do it.
The question still remains, "Can the 5th Gen be a "Z28" after the heritage or "Z06" formula?
If it can, it should...
The sales numbers for the "Z06" seem good enough for GM to continue making them. And I'm sure the "SS" or "RS" or Coupes would out sell them by leaps and bounds, so what?
There will still be those willing to pay more for, and wanting a more exotic Camaro, just as there are Corvettes.
Dedicated racers will always remove the weight they don't want anyways, and won't opt for a more expensive "Z28" to do it.
The question still remains, "Can the 5th Gen be a "Z28" after the heritage or "Z06" formula?
If it can, it should...
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Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 1,512
From: Miami, FL, US
Q: should the Z28 be what we used to call the 1LE?
A: probably not since removing any weight is probably not going to be cost effective
Q: should the Z28 be a handling package/brake upgragre/manual only/exhaust package?
A: could be, this is probably something GM can make money off.. but would the enthusiast be happy calling this a Z28?
Q: should the Z28 be like the Z06 for the Camaro?
A: adding all of the goodies plus a Ls6 like engine? pushing this car into the 40k+ price range? what's the business case for it?
My dream line up would be something like this:
Camaro v6 -----------
Camaro SS $30k+ ------------ Base Corvette $50k+
Camaro Z28 $40k+ -----------Z06 $70k+
Camaro ZL1 $50k+ -----------ZR1 $100k+
Now all we need is a solid business case to give to the bean counters. lol
A: probably not since removing any weight is probably not going to be cost effective
Q: should the Z28 be a handling package/brake upgragre/manual only/exhaust package?
A: could be, this is probably something GM can make money off.. but would the enthusiast be happy calling this a Z28?
Q: should the Z28 be like the Z06 for the Camaro?
A: adding all of the goodies plus a Ls6 like engine? pushing this car into the 40k+ price range? what's the business case for it?
My dream line up would be something like this:
Camaro v6 -----------
Camaro SS $30k+ ------------ Base Corvette $50k+
Camaro Z28 $40k+ -----------Z06 $70k+
Camaro ZL1 $50k+ -----------ZR1 $100k+
Now all we need is a solid business case to give to the bean counters. lol
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