If you want Pontiac to live, start thinking out of the box.

I hope that no one here is under the impression that the "plan" will end up giving Pontiac a performance carte blanche. And that's for a couple of reasons:

1) Pontiac has simply not demonstrated that it can move these sorts of products in any great volume. See: G8, Solstice, GTO and 4th gen Firebird.
G8 and Solstice sales combined can't even match Corvette's sales numbers. Yeah, I know. Everyone on this site swears they'll buy an LS9 GTO.

2) If anyone believes that GM's two core brands, Cadillac and Chevrolet, will happily play performance second fiddle to Pontiac, well, insert clever metaphore >here<.

Pontiac's stated role, is to support Buick. Going forward, what does that mean? I don't think it means 2 ton, V8, RWD cars - assuming that Pontiac could even generate any serious volume doing that.

I think it means small, affordable, well appointed, sporty, fun-to-drive, niche-y cars. Think Mini Cooper. Think Scion. Maybe even sporty E-Flex cars.

If anyone wants Pontiac to live longer than just afew more years (when Solstice and G8 expire), time to start thinking out of the box.




Waiting for the usual suspects to pounce....................

I think it means small, affordable, well appointed, sporty, fun-to-drive, niche-y cars. Think Mini Cooper. Think Scion. Maybe even sporty E-Flex cars.


I'd be fine with that. An abbreviated Mazda lineup (perhaps a compact, roadster, midsize sedan) plus some Mini Cooper/xB subcompact--all with high character styling and sporty road manners--would be an improvement and compatible with a re-vamped Buick.

I mentioned GM doing something like Scion in a previous thread. Would be a great idea to get young buyers hooked on GM cars, assuming they step up with their "grown up" cars.

The thing GM needs to learn is marketing. I was talking about GM to my neighbors the other day, and granted, they are not in the market for a new vehicle at this time...but I asked them to name a product that Pontiac makes. They first mentioned Firebird. Then, they mentioned Le Mans. I'm sure there are plenty of people who would be surprised to hear that Pontiac is still making new cars.

I mentioned GM doing something like Scion in a previous thread. Would be a great idea to get young buyers hooked on GM cars, assuming they step up with their "grown up" cars.

The thing GM needs to learn is marketing. I was talking about GM to my neighbors the other day, and granted, they are not in the market for a new vehicle at this time...but I asked them to name a product that Pontiac makes. They first mentioned Firebird. Then, they mentioned Le Mans. I'm sure there are plenty of people who would be surprised to hear that Pontiac is still making new cars.


True that...

A friend of mine said; "What do they make again? The Grand Am, right?"

:rolleyes:

I'm a bit concerned about the gray wording of GM's commitment to Pontiac as well...

Does it mean niche as in Solstice, Alpha, G8 niche or niche as in Vibe GXP, G3 GXP and G5 GXP.

The brand has to be complimentary to Buick, which will sell the higher margin, probably bigger cars IMO.

The other question is; does 'niche brand' mean that GM wants to do just that or does it mean "We're scaling Pontiac down for an eventual, quiet and easy phase out."

I think it means small, affordable, well appointed, sporty, fun-to-drive, niche-y cars. Think Mini Cooper. Think Scion. Maybe even sporty E-Flex cars

Alpha. Oh and Alpha. Oh! Alpha. And a Beat with a 1.4L DI turbo.

"niche" = low volume. If their largest car was VE styling in something actually sized like the modern BMW 3 series, I'd be okay with that. Slap the LNF in there and it should still be plenty of a blast and get decent mpg. RWD or AWD configurations - 2 door, 4 door, 5 door.

As much as it hurts to think of it that way, it's hard to argue with Z284ever's line of thinking.

If Pontiac is to be viable, it needs to be different, and I think that performance is not the route anymore... because Charlie's point of Pontiac not being able to move that type of vehicle DOES show in the recent history he provided.

So the question then becomes... what niche does Pontiac qualify to fill? I dunno if itsy bitsy cars are that answer myself...

Well Pontiac's niche has been rentals and fleets for the past few years. Perhaps it should go that route. I am actually being serious here. Consider the following:

Fleets and rentals have an appreciable volume.
Police/service fleets demonstrate durability and build loyalty to the model not the brand.
Rental sales of models create lowered residuals for leases and faster depreciation and should NOT be the mainstream brand or the luxury brand's concern.
There is NO brand designated specifically for fleets and rentals anywhere in the US (but I believe there is in the UK).

The additional volume generated by fleets would drive down costs for consumer purchased models.

Driving my wife's Comp G home from work last night, I reflected even more on my Pontiac-loving past. With all my bitching aside, what I've felt for a long time was that Nissan and Mazda really are what Pontiac could be...more specifically, Mazda. Keep a Solstice as a halo car...give us a COMPETITIVE small offering, a COMPETITIVE midsized car, and maybe one more car?

I can see Pontiac surviving as a "niche" lineup with 4 offerings. It doesn't need a Torrent. It doesn't need a G3. It needs three to four COMPETITIVE lines. Not a bunch of lackluster crap like its had...

My dream? Give me a Solstice like what we have, with a Sky-level interior. If that's not possible, dare I say a Zeta-based Firebird or GTO? If Kappa is going away, here is a way to hop on Zeta cheap.

Add to that a more aggressive looking Cruze and call it a Grand Am, and a more aggressive Malibu with a nice hi-po V6, and call it a Grand Prix. End it there. If Saturn is going away, and Buick starts with a car the same size as a Malibu and "Grand Prix" derivative, life should be good...right???

3-4 models...I'd ideally like 3 in 2 and 4 door form, and a Firebird :)

I said it in another thread. I think it will be smaller, sporty, lower priced offerings to appease the dealers. Astra would be a good fit.

Mazda is what Pontiac was. Pontiac wasn't all GTO's and Firebirds. I agree with you Jason, they should have 4 cars with a sporty edge and call it a day. Also, Killing the Grand Am/Grand Prix name was just murder. People knew the name and that kind of recognition is very expensive

Two things about Ponitac's audience at this point are obvious: they are heavily price point sensitive and heavily design-motivated. the core ideal is to grow the business, with that in mind we do have to try different things than what we've had before. in all seriousness, the mainstream product have been massive failure due to severe lack of all the desirable attributes of cars in this class. gran prix missing quality and efficiency, as well as more universally good design. g6 missing quality and biggest defecit: performance. g5 is pointless, pointlessly non-aggressive, pointlessly boring, pointlessly low in quality and performance.

all the product you've mentioned in your first post were either niche, i.e not designed to appeal to buyers en masse, like solstice or the 4th gen [by virtue of its uncommodious nature] or very high priced for a pontiac, g8 and gto. i don't think these are the best tests yet for a high priced pontiac. pontiac can't even succeed all that well in the low priced market, how is the word going to get out to affluent buyers that this is a good car, when the entry level product is crap and generally unappealing. so i don't think g8 and gto situations of the recent past are great test beds. like infiniti, we must rebuild pontiac from the ground up.

to that extent, pontiac must return to its glory roots of performance and rebelion. i have a car in my sig over at C&G, it's the audi a1 sportback concept, and it's a mini competitor. it's likely coming here, but is coming out in the world next year. very very appealing. this is the first spot they should hit. i''ve long been talking about a gamma sport coupe with real performance. the benchmark should be the acura rsx type-s. meet that car in refinement and appointments, and you will remake the brand Pontiac as a whole.

next up is alpha. this is relatively simple. pontiac's last big hit was the grand am. yes we can talk about fleet sales in its sunset years, but like many GM product it was allowed to languish in its final years on the market with no real update to engineering or cosmetically. for shame. a compact sedan that can reasonably seat 4, think current 3-series, priced to start at $20k. this will not be overlap with malibu because it will actually be smaller [at the very least on outside, next malibu was supposed to grow in total interior volume]. a convertible, hatch [maxx shaped but desirably styled], and wagon should follow this model. the coupe should be the hotted up firebird model, perhaps styled after the holden coupe 60 [reminiscent of the last 3-series]

finally the pinaccle should be simple. epsilon long wheelbase with real performance 5 door hatch. shaped like the new 4 door coupes but with more dramatically sloping rear end, this will satiate many gran pprix buyers in the mainstream who want sporty looks with their familys edan, they can have thier cake and eat it too. every Pontiac should be engineered to performance perfection. Opel has a great base with the Insignia hatch that should be the starting point here. this is to satisfy those that feel Pontiac needs a business case, more volume to stay in business. i do think a RWD sedan would work in place of this, but G8 has been a poor test case, it's high priced in the V6 edition, it's poorly supported, there are not many, most people don't know what it is, and it's been released in a bad climate [first high gas prices, now enconomic storm]

finally the real pinaccle should be a GTO/chevelle/monte like vehicle. not too large, perhaps camaro is large enough here. should be shaped more traditionally and less fiery, more like the first GTOs. the gentleman's sports coupe. this will be the high end, and can come maybe half a decade to a decade after the rebuilding is showing signs of strength.

that's all Pontiac needs, that's all they should be.

Gran Prix and Grand Am as names should come back. on truly desirable product.

here's the a1 sportback concept perfect as a small car Gamma concept to compete with entries like Mini, GTI, upcoming Nissan 240sx
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2008-11/1327600/audi-a1-sportback-concept-1_opt.jpg

this is actually very small, smaller than it looks.

Save the Solstice and the G8. Ditch the rest.
Give us a G8 coupe and a Firebird.
That's a start.

If possible or needed in the future, then add an Alpha car and possibly a rebadged Statesman large sport sedan.

Mazda is what Pontiac was. Pontiac wasn't all GTO's and Firebirds. I agree with you Jason, they should have 4 cars with a sporty edge and call it a day. Also, Killing the Grand Am/Grand Prix name was just murder. People knew the name and that kind of recognition is very expensive

The bottom line is that the crossovers show what's wrong with GM. We don't need a Traverse, Acadia, Enclave and Outlook. That's asinine. I'm ALL FOR dumping Saturn. It has the least number of dealers, and has soaked up far more money than any division save for Chevy...which sells way, way more.

People forget, Pontiac's success as late as '02 or so was on selling SPORTY CHEVYS. Not just GTOs and Firebirds. The current Impala and Malibu shows how Pontiac is STILL VIABLE, IMO. Both are great cars...but bland as to appeal to the mass majority.

Now, if Saturn is axed, what happens? We're down to 3 crossovers...and need 2. I'd say Acadia should die as well, because the Buick is sitting right there. Astra is gone...a new Cruze and "Grand Am" is perfect...no more models needed down low. Aura is gone (or does it become a Buick???), which leaves the phenomenal Malibu...and the possibility for a more aggressive Grand Prix.

And finally, the halo car. Sky is gone, so leave Solstice. If Kappa isn't worth it, give Camaro a platform mate :) Hard to make it more aggressive than the Camaro, but lets face it...we all know it CAN go upscale...maybe standard V8 engine? More futuristic look?

The tools are in the toolbox, if GM can use them right. There's a legion of current Pontiac owners that would love this idea, I firmly believe. Don't waste my time with RWD sedan chassis and screw with crossovers. I believe Pontiac COULD HAVE STAYED A FULL LINE...but we're past that now. GM doesn't have the money, and screwed Pontiac too hard for too long. Now? Give it 3-4 cars and some design creativity...and let it fly. Seriously.

This really, really could work. I'd personally LOVE to replace our Comp G in a few years with a car with the quality and attention to detail of a Malibu...but that looked plain nasty. A DI 3.6, maybe AWD? I'd be all over that :D Modern day Grand Prix.

Get the CAW to lift the asinine restrictions on nameplates, and LET PONTIAC HAVE THEIR NAMES BACK.

As someone who grew up a "Pontiac" guy in a "Pontiac" family; my question would be...

What can Pontiac offer that is truly more desirable/different/better/more exciting with a "Pontiac" badge on it that couldn't be offered just as well under any other GM nameplate?

As someone who grew up a "Pontiac" guy in a "Pontiac" family; my question would be...

What can Pontiac offer that is truly more desirable/different/better/more exciting with a "Pontiac" badge on it that couldn't be offered just as well under any other GM nameplate?

I'm a "Pontiac" guy from a "Pontiac" family, so here's my answer...

Take a Chevy, and get the design excitement out. The new Malibu is a great car...far better in many ways than our Comp G. Yet neither myself, nor my wife, feel any real urge to own one. Its just too plain looking. Pontiac's sales success in the '80s and '90s was selling more aggressive Chevys, with better handling and occassionally, performance.

Take a Cruze, give it an edge. Take a Malibu, and make it look more aggressive. Look at how plain the current Impala is. It appeals to a broad segment of people, however. Make a Pontiac version more aggressive.

I want to buy a GM car...I'm the target market for a Malibu. But it really doesn't speak to me, and make me want to part with $25k. Its a beautiful car, but too plain for me. I think a lot of current and former Pontiac owners would agree.

Add a halo car, and voila. GM needs SALES. Don't make Pontiac too "niche-y"....take some great designs, and make them bolder. Grand Am and Grand Prix owners will show back up...I'm confident.

1) Pontiac has simply not demonstrated that it can move these sorts of products in any great volume. See: G8, Solstice, GTO and 4th gen Firebird.
G8 and Solstice sales combined can't even match Corvette's sales numbers. Yeah, I know. Everyone on this site swears they'll buy an LS9 GTO.


Pontiac's problem is that all the good vehicles they have gotten have been low volume niche deals. They have not gotten a fully baked volume intended car in a while. I know you will harp on the G6 being the future of Pontiac..but it was barely competitive when introduced, and the new Malibu makes it look elderly.The 4th Gen Firebird did move 30K units a year plus this decade..after the decision was made to kill it. The GTO was never intended to sell in volume, and by the time it was canceled was profitable and doing what GM wanted. The Solstice is a car I like a lot that I just could not own myself because it is not my style. As for the G8...I think it's problem has been what also hurt the GTO. There is simply a lack of features, and too many compromises. Go play in a Hemi Charger for a while. Even though the styling is iffy, the car itself is very well put togethor...and the MyGIG system blows anything GM has away. The G8 has a big touch screen radio with no nav, and model for model costs more than the Charger. I think if the V6 was cheaper, and the production mix was right they would sell well. The other issue is, Pontiac only wants/can sell 20,000 K of these a year, where at one point they were selling almost 200,000 Grand Prixs.

What I am saying is...you are arguing that Pontiac has not moved any exclusive vehicles it received in great volume, so why invest more. However, if you look at the cars you listed, they were all low volume to start...and none of them were fully baked except the Solstice..which has a very limited market to start.

If anyone is expecting niche to mean exciting cars not available in other divisions then this may bring down the euphoria a bit - over on GMI discussion of what "Pontiac and niche" means more rebadged Chevys and not stand alone cars per se like the Solstice or G8. This feels just bad.... I like my Pontiacs - I'm on my third in a row, so I'm pessimistically nervous about what exactly "more rebadged Chevys" ultimately means.... if that's the case and we're talking straight rebadge, just kill Pontiac off now and get it over with because the ride could get excrutiatingly bad.

I want a viable GM as much as the next guy, but I don't want them to strangle brands in the long run as they move forward. If the situation ultimately calls for Chevrolet and Cadillac standing alone at the end of the day, then so be it, drop the rest now.

I still don't know what they can possibly do with Buick to resuscitate it in any meaningful way... other than the Enclave there isn't anything there to write home about... Lacrosse/Allure is a decent/well screwed together car, but it's not that nice, nor is it thrilling - on any level.

I guess we'll see what happens...

Gran Prix and Grand Am as names should come back. on truly desirable product.

here's the a1 sportback concept perfect as a small car Gamma concept to compete with entries like Mini, GTI, upcoming Nissan 240sx
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2008-11/1327600/audi-a1-sportback-concept-1_opt.jpg

this is actually very small, smaller than it looks.

Something like that is what I could envision for Pontiac. Some sort of "premium" Gamma. As was mentioned, Pontiac carries a very sensitive price point with consumers, plus I'd doubt that it would be productive to exceed the price ranges of the Buicks sharing showroom space.

Actually, would it be so bad if Pontiac only sold one model - but made it perfect and desireable? Look at Mini for example. Something like an A1, Mini, or whatever - which in base form could be had for $17,000 and optioned up into the mid -20's. Something with lots of dealer support and accessories.

A stylish Gamma, with a nice interior, great handling, and Family Zero 1.4 turbo would be a good start.

What would you call it? Hmmmmmm?

Tempest?

out of the box thinking for Pontiac has to go the opposite direction of what alot of enthusiasts (ie us) are thinking.

If i could ask for what i want i'd ask for the GTO back, continue the G8, maybe even a Firebird. Common line = V8, hp, hp, hp.

That can't happen in this environment. So the only other option is to reverse direction.

Look at the success of Scion, Subaru, etc.

Pontiac should focus on affordable performance and style. Smaller more fuel efficient cars using hi-po low displacement motors, turbos, and AWD systems.

Get the younger crowd in and offer more performance at the same price. More options and custom parts.

Turbo ecotec the whole line.

I'm a "Pontiac" guy from a "Pontiac" family, so here's my answer...

Take a Chevy, and get the design excitement out. The new Malibu is a great car...far better in many ways than our Comp G. Yet neither myself, nor my wife, feel any real urge to own one. Its just too plain looking. Pontiac's sales success in the '80s and '90s was selling more aggressive Chevys, with better handling and occassionally, performance.

Take a Cruze, give it an edge. Take a Malibu, and make it look more aggressive. Look at how plain the current Impala is. It appeals to a broad segment of people, however. Make a Pontiac version more aggressive.

I want to buy a GM car...I'm the target market for a Malibu. But it really doesn't speak to me, and make me want to part with $25k. Its a beautiful car, but too plain for me. I think a lot of current and former Pontiac owners would agree.

Add a halo car, and voila. GM needs SALES. Don't make Pontiac too "niche-y"....take some great designs, and make them bolder. Grand Am and Grand Prix owners will show back up...I'm confident.
I don't really disagree with any of your comments but they do miss my point a bit...the point I was trying to make is that what can a "Pontiac" badged vehicle do that a "Chevy", for example, can't?

Yes, you can take a good but bland Chevy model and make it more exciting...more desirable; but why would you have to re-badge it as a Pontiac to do so? Couldn't you just as easily make the changes and still call it a Chevy?

I suppose what I'm trying to say is that I think Pontiac has to be able (and allowed) to do something the either can't or would not be allowed under the Chevy/Buick nameplate for Pontiac to have a reason to be around in the future.

The problem with niche is what is niche. You can't make Scion because American companies can't make money off those already razer thin margines. Pontiac is not BMW as much as they pretend to be. They can't make all RWD cars that alienates people. They could go the AWD route and face off against Subie.

The truth is, as long as they keep trying to be like everyone else, they will be nothing. Be yourself Pontiac, we like you.

I agree with the thinking that if Pontiac is to stick around, it must reposition itself closer to what Scion is all about : fun inexpensive vehicles appealing to the youth market/first time buyers as well as to the import tuner crowd.

Keep the Solstice/Solstice coupe as the halo car (perhaps improve it's interior), add a micro-van (xB or Nissan Cube-like or Mini Cooper Clubman-like) vehicle, and a sporty front wheel drive 3/5 door hatchback to round out the line.

Pontiac must then support all of the vehicles with a wealth of factory-backed, dealer-installed personalization and performance options just as Mini and Scion do.

They can all use variants of the ecotec, and share many other common parts.

As much as I would love to see the return of the Firebird and GTO, I am afraid that they just don't fit at this time.

I don't really disagree with any of your comments but they do miss my point a bit...the point I was trying to make is that what can a "Pontiac" badged vehicle do that a "Chevy", for example, can't?


A Pontiac badged vehicle can be sold in a Buick/Pontiac/GMC dealership. Otherwise, you would have to make them Buick/Chevy/GMC dealerships and that doesn't make sense.

A Pontiac badged vehicle can be sold in a Buick/Pontiac/GMC dealership. Otherwise, you would have to make them Buick/Chevy/GMC dealerships and that doesn't make sense.

Maybe I'm missing the Robert's point, but I think he has asking why can't the "uplevel" chevy be an option package, and not a separate model, for another brand? Or just make the chevy look sporty, and performance oriented to begin with.

A DI 3.6, maybe AWD? I'd be all over that :D Modern day Grand Prix.

With a pair of turbos it sounds like the Torana concept Holden came up with.

A Pontiac badged vehicle can be sold in a Buick/Pontiac/GMC dealership. Otherwise, you would have to make them Buick/Chevy/GMC dealerships and that doesn't make sense.

Not the point. The point is if you do something to a Chevy and call it a Pontiac, why dont you just do that to a Chevy, call it the "SS" and sell it at a Chevy dealership? Why spend the time and money to market another brand at all!

Pontiac needs to share *some* genetics with GM to keep costs down - but they have to be unique, espicially knowing they have zero nameplate identity now.

If you took a VE sedan, (now called the "G8") and sold it for G8 prices with a Chevy badge and called it "Caprice" or "Chevelle" would it sell better than the G8?

Does it bother anyone else that they replaced a possible 200k annual sales Grand Prix with a max 20k vehicle? That sounds like they're screwing the dealers...

...

Exactly. Just call the sporty pontiac options the "SS" package (supercharged impala SS what?)

Maybe I'm missing the Robert's point, but I think he has asking why can't the "uplevel" chevy be an option package, and not a separate model, for another brand? Or just make the chevy look sporty, and performance oriented to begin with.
No...you pretty much got it as did Geoff. :)

Not the point. The point is if you do something to a Chevy and call it a Pontiac, why dont you just do that to a Chevy, call it the "SS" and sell it at a Chevy dealership? Why spend the time and money to market another brand at all!

It is the point. The Buick dealers want/need a smaller/cheaper car to sell in their showrooms. You can't sell a Chevy SS outside of a Chevy dealer.

It is the point. The Buick dealers want/need a smaller/cheaper car to sell in their showrooms. You can't sell a Chevy SS outside of a Chevy dealer.
Why do you need anything other than a Chevy dealership???

You don't need a Buick or a Pontiac just so that you can sell Chevy's with a different nameplate.

Why do you need anything other than a Chevy dealership???

You don't need a Buick or a Pontiac just so that you can sell Chevy's with a different nameplate.

GM needs Buick because of China sales.

GM needs GMC because they sell a lot of higher profit trucks.

But, the GMC/Buick dealerships would only have mid-luxury cars and trucks. They would not be able to offer anything to younger/lower income people. Therefore, they need Pontiac to fill this gap.

I'm not advocating that Pontiacs be strict rebadges of Chevy's. But, I think that is what GM will do in the short term and I understand why - they don't have the money to invest in unique styling and/or performance.

A good compromise may be to "rebadge" only the SS models. Use unique front end styling that is "agressive" with unique wheels, rear spoilers, and tailights.

GM needs Buick because of China sales.

GM needs GMC because they sell a lot of higher profit trucks.

But, the GMC/Buick dealerships would only have mid-luxury cars and trucks. They would not be able to offer anything to younger/lower income people. Therefore, they need Pontiac to fill this gap.

I'm not advocating that Pontiacs be strict rebadges of Chevy's. But, I think that is what GM will do in the short term and I understand why - they don't have the money to invest in unique styling and/or performance.

A good compromise may be to "rebadge" only the SS models. Use unique front end styling that is "agressive" with unique wheels, rear spoilers, and tailights.
We probably aren't all that far apart on this but I'm not sure that you are getting what I'm trying to get across.

My overall point is that General Motors is the car company here…meaning that it doesn’t truly need any specific/certain nameplates (it could change all it’s nameplates to “GM” and if it wanted to do so or it could have two-dozen and it doesn’t really matter…they are just nameplates (it’s only “history”; mostly in the form of nostalgia) that keep people thinking otherwise.

I do understand that there are intrinsic values to names like “Cadillac” and “Pontiac” and I’m not suggesting those values be overlooked; I’m just tying to point out that, at least in my humble opinion, the only reason to have multiple nameplates owned by the same multi-national company is if there are true differences between those nameplates/models.

That’s why, if Pontiac or a Saturn is going to stick around; they have to have some truly unique models/place in GM’s lineup that justify their being around.

I have heard some good ideas in this thread, and some wishy washy ones. If I were king of pontiac, I would live by a simple rule: Make the FASTEST car feasible for every segment up to $40,000.

Sub compact: I-4Turbocharged high 14 sec G3, but less ghey looking
compact: Bigger I-4 turbocharged high 13 sec G5, or cobalt SS equivalent with awsome tuner styling.
Midsize: 300+hp V6 mid 13 sec coupe/sedan. Bodykit, Halos, etc... required
fullsize: 12 sec stock G8 coupe/sedan.
sport coupe: mid 12 sec GTO or TA equivalent.

No need to compete with corvettes, Mercedes, etc... Every time a competitor came out with a faster car in segment, Poncho should replace the cam, change the PCM tune, or up the boost to keep thier crown of best 0-60 and best 1/4mile time of the segment.

I think I agree with Robert on this one. If Pontiacs can't be SIGNIFICANTLY different from the other brands, then why do you need them?
If GM says they can't be radically different or are unwilling to make them that way, then just put them out of their misery.

In my mind, Pontiac would HAVE to offer a type of car not available at ANY of the other divisions. Not even close. (Except for the Firebird ;) )

I still envision Pontiac as a RWD performance division. Great driving dynamics, high style, excellent power for whatever market the supposed models plan to play in.

It is the point. The Buick dealers want/need a smaller/cheaper car to sell in their showrooms.

No, Buick does not. Chevrolet does. ;)

GM needs Buick because of China sales. GM needs GMC because they sell a lot of higher profit trucks.

That is true.

But, the GMC/Buick dealerships would only have mid-luxury cars and trucks. They would not be able to offer anything to younger/lower income people. Therefore, they need Pontiac to fill this gap.

Pontiac and Buick both have brand identity (or rather, they need it bad). BMW doesnt make a cheap car. They dont want to or need to. Buick offers more than a Chevy in luxury. Pontiac would offer more than a Chevy in performance. GMC offers more than a Chevy truck. You have the volume dealer (chevy) and the premium dealer (b/p/g).

I'm not advocating that Pontiacs be strict rebadges of Chevy's.

I know you're not. ;) I just know GM will start with the initial re-badge effort to get the ground running. Then, as they have so many times before, they wont stop. They'll just keep on badge engineering. It cant be excused anymore. They need to make every car distinct enough that nobody could ever say "well, they could just drop that".

A good compromise may be to "rebadge" only the SS models. Use unique front end styling that is "agressive" with unique wheels, rear spoilers, and tailights.

That wasnt good for the Fcar from 93-02 and it isnt good now. Not to mention GM is strapped for cash and is totally insolvent. Burning design dollars to fill out a dealer's offerings is design dollars they just dont have.

Pointiac also cant fight Sion. Heck. GM cant fight Sion. They have razor thin profit margins, and a parent company that makes profitable cars like GM makes profitable trucks. GM will loose. GM needs to pick its battles *very* carefully.

Maybe it means Buick/Pontiac/GMC dont have a car for sale under $20k. Maybe. Sales might continue to decline till they stabilize at a lower level - but we cant maintain the sales rates of the past 5 years anyway. Either way though, atleast both brands would have a soul again.

the only problem is dealing with CAFE. For that alone, I will excuse a few "smaller" cars. But again - a version of the Aveo (or similar) better have like 160hp and a turbo and handle like a Mini. It can be expensive and still get good fuel economy.

Pontiac Custom S on C&G says Pontiac's niche will be G3, G5, and Vibe.

Sub compact: I-4Turbocharged high 14 sec G3, but less ghey looking
compact: Bigger I-4 turbocharged high 13 sec G5, or cobalt SS equivalent with awsome tuner styling.
Midsize: 300+hp V6 mid 13 sec coupe/sedan. Bodykit, Halos, etc... required
fullsize: 12 sec stock G8 coupe/sedan.
sport coupe: mid 12 sec GTO or TA equivalent.

You're close, but Pontiac doesn't need ANY FWD vehicles. Leave them to Chevy and Buick.

That doesn't mean they couldn't build small, 4 cyl, RWD, performance minded sub-compacts and compacts. Maybe the replacement architecture for the Kappa could be designed to be more flexible, so that they could build the Solstice, a compact, and a sub-compact car from the same structure.

Midsize RWD could be Alpha based.

Fullsize exists with the G8. Just add a G8 coupe. Ditch the ST. I don't think that thing will sell in large numbers here.

And if they see fit, then bring the Statesman over as a larger performance sedan.

Pontiac Custom S on C&G says Pontiac's niche will be G3, G5, and Vibe.


If that's the case, just kill 'em now.

I think some of you guys are not getting Pontiac's role now. It will offer entry level cars in the BPG channel.

since BPG is the premium division, and Chevy is the volume division, and the goal is to reduce overlap, a well managed GM would use Pontiac as a way to offer premium entry level cars. so my plan would be the way to go. i'm at an anger boiling point here, because the gamma subcompact makes so much sense and is not something that could automatically play a role at any other division, it just fits in best with Pontiac's brand language. and this is where GM has mismanaged divisions and not understood the trends the market is taking, by not making those calls themselves. they really don't deserve taxpayer money if all they're going to do is throw cruze and corsa rebadges at Pontiac [unless that is those rebadges are not at all rebadges and are actual unique product on the respective platforms]. since buick is the premium car in between chevy and cadillac, it makes sense for Pontiac to be slightly premium but with a focus on performance and aggressive styling. it's pretty simple, y'all

with thier hand held out and thier if you don't fix it for us we're gonna let it all go down to hell attitude, GM is really pissing me off. it's as if they're telling the American people, sorry you're screwed you have to fix us, no way out of it. they're the ones who screwed up yet they have yet to eat the gigantic slice of humble pie we're all expecting them to take.

[having not yet read the plan, i'm directing my comments at some initial reporting that shows little in the way of improving the actual business model, the one where profit-per-unit is the most important thing. since this is thier biggest problem, my anger and impatience towards them at the moment is pretty sky high.]

and we should just let them die.

I think some of you guys are not getting Pontiac's role now. It will offer entry level cars in the BPG channel.

QFT.

A lot of people around here like to pontificate on Pontiac's "potential". But unless you can find a few billion dollars and five years of solvency, it's irrelevant at this point. GM has officially told the government that Pontiac is not important.

You guys need to look at this from the DEALER's perspective. Maybe they really don't NEED lower cost, entry level offerings, but they STRONGLY want some. That's how we ended up with the G3 and G5. Here are a couple of scenarios:

A middle-aged, upper middle class man comes in to the dealership to buy his new Buick. While wrapping up the sale, he mentions that he also wants to get a new car for his daughter that is going off to college. He wants something safe and reliable with a warranty, but cheap. The only thing the salesman can say is, "how about a slightly used car?". Chances are that the buyer wouldn't be interested.

Alternatively, a young college graduate comes in to the showroom to look at the GMC trucks. He really can't afford one, and is just kinda dreaming. The salesman approaches him and strikes up a conversation. The college grad lets him know that he needs a new car, and really wants a new truck, but his practical side is telling him to buy a new small car. Again, the only thing the dealer might be able to offer him is a slightly used car, which he probably won't be interested in.

You also have to take into consideration that GM has no money to invest in all-new cars or significanly redesigned cars for Pontiac. It is much much cheaper to put a new fascia on a few Chevy's to fill out the BPG lineup.

I think some of you guys are not getting Pontiac's role now. It will offer entry level cars in the BPG channel.

Then what do we make of LaNeve's comment that Pontiac will be about a "performance niche," as "Corvette is to Chevy?"

That doesn't equal G3, G5 and Vibe...

Entry level in the BPG channel...but upscale from Chevy, and a performance niche.

That leaves G6 GXP for people who want something wilder than a Malibu. And G8. And Solstice till kappa dies. MAYBE a wilder Cobalt SS.

OR

It leaves G8 and various other Holden (like the Ute, which is very much a niche car/truck/whatever) products that are too racy for the Buick crowd. But they fill the performance niche and allow the BPG channel to sell to buyers other than people over 60and the GMC faithful.

Then what do we make of LaNeve's comment that Pontiac will be about a "performance niche," as "Corvette is to Chevy?"

That doesn't equal G3, G5 and Vibe...



I don't know Jason. Maybe he's just putting a pretty face on things. Solstice has a couple of more years left before it's discontinued. G8? Who knows. 1,100 sold units per month with a 9 month unsold supply, can't spell lots of security for it.

I think it's unrealistic to hope that Pontiac returns to what it was in the '60's and '70's. Pontiac will be a purveyor of affordable, fuel efficient cars. The only question here, is if these will be mundane or not. And this is just my personal opinion - but Pontiac better have something that catches fire with the consumer over the next 2-3 years. If not, it'll be all too easy to just finish killing it.

Here's what I think is a good place for the 'new' Pontiac to start:

http://www.opel.ie/content_data/GME/019/IE/en/GBPIE/microsite/opc/BROADBAND/index.html


Pick no more than two products, and get them right!



Here's the OPC Corsa:
http://www.jalopnik.com/assets/resources/2007/01/opel_corsa_opc.jpg

If that's the case, just kill 'em now.

:yes:

Here's what I think is a good place for the 'new' Pontiac to start:

Try again. :p

But I agree, the Opel OPC line is a great place. What is the Vectra built off of? The Malibu?

Get the OPC Vectra and OPC Astra.

Here's what I think is a good place for the 'new' Pontiac to start:

http://www.opel.ie/content_data/GME/019/IE/en/GBPIE/microsite/opc/BROADBAND/index.html


Pick no more than two products, and get them right!



Here's the OPC Corsa:
http://www.jalopnik.com/assets/resources/2007/01/opel_corsa_opc.jpg

I like it :yes: I think that would make an awesome Pontiac

If that's the case, just kill 'em now.

:yes:

Unless Pontiac can tap into a hot retail market really soon, you guys will get your wish.

Unless Pontiac can tap into a hot retail market really soon, you guys will get your wish.

Believe me, it's not my wish.
I bleed Pontiac.

But what we have now, and what some propose, is not Pontiac.

If Pontiac cannot get back to what made it so great in the '60s and early '70s, then just kill it now.

If you want hot FWDs here from Opel, fine. Bring them over as Opels. Or rebadge them as Chevys. But not Pontiac.

Believe me, it's not my wish.
I bleed Pontiac.

But what we have now, and what some propose, is not Pontiac.

If Pontiac cannot get back to what made it so great in the '60s and early '70s, then just kill it now.

If you want hot FWDs here from Opel, fine. Bring them over as Opels. Or rebadge them as Chevys. But not Pontiac.

Personally, for me, the real Pontiac died after 1981. After that, Pontiacs were just GM corporate cars with Pontiac specific snouts and cladding to me. I still would hate to see the brand go though. Maybe, just maybe, if it survives alittle longer, who knows what it might become in the future. Could even be something interesting.


Anyway, I can see the handwriting on the wall here. I can see how Pontiac will now be slowly marginalized (actually, not so slowly), starved of product, and eventually when no one wants to buy one anymore, it will be killed without any fanfare or complaint. I'd hate to see that. I'd want Pontiac to survive - and maybe get another chance. And that just isn't going to happen unless Pontiac can at least get one product which becomes a smash hit. One product which stirs excitement with more than just 12,000 buyers per year.

You know, I've got to say this, (and I mean no offence here - but it needs to said), lots of people who proclaim themselves "Pontiac Enthusiasts" have inadvertantly harmed this brand. I mean all this talk about Pontiac being this or that and all the screaming and yelling for a GTO, and when it FINALLY gets here >crickets<. Same thing with the G8. I mean jeez-o-pete guys.

Pontiac needs a product which can make a BIG splash with some segment. Probably the under 25 crowd. Something which can create cult status, like the Mini did or the xB did, or the VW GTi did in the early '80's - or the GTO in 1964.
I say, take a chance.

One thing that is apparent to me from at least late 2003 until now, that the traditional, big HP V8, RWD, is NOT what Pontiac does very successfully anymore. We need to face reality on this one, if Pontiac is to have one last chance for life.

What saddens me is why the G8 isn't selling at the numbers anticipated. A great GM product not selling very well. What's the story?

The G8 is the Pontiac '5-series' at an affordable price... but the American public hasn't embraced the plan. Why not? I thought the car would have sold itself out the door.

I'd want Pontiac to survive - and maybe get another chance. And that just isn't going to happen unless Pontiac can at least get one product which becomes a smash hit. One product which stirs excitement with more than just 12,000 buyers per year.


Some ideas:

http://www.welovepontiacs.com/future.html

A Pontiac version of this would be easy to do, and could be a big hit:
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/hot_lists/high_performance/concept_central/chevrolet_orlando_concept_auto_shows+view-photos.html

One thing that is apparent to me from at least late 2003 until now, that the traditional, big HP V8, RWD, is NOT what Pontiac does very successfully anymore. We need to face reality on this one, if Pontiac is to have one last chance for life.

I don't think any mainstream brand is moving a lot of v8/rwd cars unless they're named Mustang. The Chrysler 300's had some legs based on styling alone, but I don't think that many buyers are daring enough to buy a $30K car that will consumer more gas with gas prices being so volatile. I personally like the G8 GT well enough, but I know there's enough technology in the pipeline that will make such an investment look crude in a few years by delivery similar performance and better fuel economy.

Those that can't stand the thought of subcompact and 4-6 cyl Pontiacs need accept that the high perf v8 days are dwindling for every mfr. There haven't even been many v8s offered by Pontiac in the last half-dozen years outside a token model here or there. The last couple decades have only had a few highlights, regardless of powertrain, so I don't see why injecting some fresh cars, like Opels, is such a bad thing. Of course I don't want Daewoo G3s, but prove you can sell something to get on solid footing and maybe there will be more leeway for (smaller) niche cars.

Some ideas:

http://www.welovepontiacs.com/future.html


I think they've explored all of those ideas already.

A Pontiac version of this would be easy to do, and could be a big hit:
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/hot_lists/high_performance/concept_central/chevrolet_orlando_concept_auto_shows+view-photos.html

A Chevy version of it for the US is even easier. Why do two of them?

Personally, for me, the real Pontiac died after 1981. After that, Pontiacs were just GM corporate cars with Pontiac specific snouts and cladding to me. I still would hate to see the brand go though. Maybe, just maybe, if it survives alittle longer, who knows what it might become in the future. Could even be something interesting.


Anyway, I can see the handwriting on the wall here. I can see how Pontiac will now be slowly marginalized (actually, not so slowly), starved of product, and eventually when no one wants to buy one anymore, it will be killed without any fanfare or complaint. I'd hate to see that. I'd want Pontiac to survive - and maybe get another chance. And that just isn't going to happen unless Pontiac can at least get one product which becomes a smash hit. One product which stirs excitement with more than just 12,000 buyers per year.

You know, I've got to say this, (and I mean no offence here - but it needs to said), lots of people who proclaim themselves "Pontiac Enthusiasts" have inadvertantly harmed this brand. I mean all this talk about Pontiac being this or that and all the screaming and yelling for a GTO, and when it FINALLY gets here >crickets<. Same thing with the G8. I mean jeez-o-pete guys.

Pontiac needs a product which can make a BIG splash with some segment. Probably the under 25 crowd. Something which can create cult status, like the Mini did or the xB did, or the VW GTi did in the early '80's - or the GTO in 1964.
I say, take a chance.

One thing that is apparent to me from at least late 2003 until now, that the traditional, big HP V8, RWD, is NOT what Pontiac does very successfully anymore. We need to face reality on this one, if Pontiac is to have one last chance for life.

In a lot of Pontiac enthusiasts' minds, the last Pontiac was built in 1979 when the last Pontiac 400 rolled off the assembly line. I agree with that.


In terms of the new GTO and the G8; I belong to the Pontiac clubs. The majority of these people didn't/don't fawn over these cars for a few reasons. One being, they weren't built in the U.S. Another being, is that they had no stylistic relationship with the Pontiacs from the golden era. Another one (which I personally thought was rediculous) was that the cars don't have a real Pontiac V-8 in them (yes, many people complained about that).

When the Camaro came out, all these Pontiac guys said things along the lines of, "why couldn't they have done that with the GTO?"
(Not that they wanted the Camaro to be the GTO, but look at the genesis of the design of the new car; where the design team started; how true they stayed to the 1st gen Camaro; how instanly recognizable the new Camaro is as a Camaro. The new GTO should have looked like a GTO)


There's no reason the cars you suggest that Pontiac should have, could be badged and offered as Chevys, and Pontiac could be sent to pasture.
I hate the demise of such a great nameplate, but I'd rather it be remembered for the great cars it built in the golden years rather than the boring and pedestrian ones being built now.

GM doesn't have a reputation for thinking outside the box.

I think Pontiac needs to die before any more effort wasted on it.

My opinion is based only on my own anecdotal evidence, but outside of this message board and one or two people I know that own firebirds, no one gives a rat's @ss about Pontiac...

I have a hunch that where many on this board say "Grand Am and Grand Prix were great names" and "people knew them" and "pontiac is the sporty, edgy, and exciting brand," most of America remembers the Grand Am and Grand Prix as lackluster, cheap, and generally undesirable rental cars, and thinks of pontiac as "Chevy Cars with a grill that looks like a BMW's if you squint."

Pontiac is GM's appendix, imho. Sure, it has history and a number of fans, but not enough fans to keep it afloat, apparently.


Saturn may not move Pontiac's volume, but on the other hand, it pulls in import buyers. Lots of people still don't even associate Saturn with GM. THAT is Saturn's greatest asset, and represents potential that other GM brands don't have.

If you ask me, any effort spent on Pontiac would be better spent on Saturn.

," most of America remembers the Grand Am and Grand Prix as lackluster, cheap, and generally undesirable rental cars,



A lot of people may not know it, but the Grand Prix won JD Power Intial Quality awards in both 2007 and 2008, beating the Toyota Avalon and Toyota is not cancelling the Avalon. (nice move Bob)

I disagree with limiting Pontiac's lineup since its always been a high volume brand, but if it had to be niche I would go with a heritage inspired GTO, new kappa based fiero to capture the sporty small car buyers and 2 other models, but tough to say what they should be?

A lot of people may not know it, but the Grand Prix won JD Power Intial Quality awards in both 2007 and 2008, beating the Toyota Avalon and Toyota is not cancelling the Avalon. (nice move Bob)


How many people actually think the Grand Prix was a competitive car in its class? I know there are a few on here. Do you really think that it compared well with an Impala, Accord, or Camry?

I'd had more than a few rides in recent Grand Prixs (rental cars). The renters pretty much universally disliked them. Their styling resulted in interior space compromises, yet they weren't at all sporty. From what I could tell, they just didn't sell to non-captive private buyers.

On the other hand, some people actually do like the Impala -- mostly because of it's spaciousness. It's not trying to be something it's not, and it's pretty good at what it actually is (a large sedan).

A Chevy version of it for the US is even easier. Why do two of them?

:rolleyes: Because that wouldn't save Pontiac!!!

In terms of the new GTO and the G8; I belong to the Pontiac clubs. The majority of these people didn't/don't fawn over these cars for a few reasons. One being, they weren't built in the U.S. Another being, is that they had no stylistic relationship with the Pontiacs from the golden era. Another one (which I personally thought was rediculous) was that the cars don't have a real Pontiac V-8 in them (yes, many people complained about that).





Yeah, I know. I made the mistake of asking someone from a local GTO club, what he thought of the '04 GTO when it came out. He gave me an earful.

My opinion is based only on my own anecdotal evidence, but outside of this message board and one or two people I know that own firebirds, no one gives a rat's @ss about Pontiac...

I have a hunch that where many on this board say "Grand Am and Grand Prix were great names" and "people knew them" and "pontiac is the sporty, edgy, and exciting brand," most of America remembers the Grand Am and Grand Prix as lackluster, cheap, and generally undesirable rental cars, and thinks of pontiac as "Chevy Cars with a grill that looks like a BMW's if you squint."



I have to agree with your assessment.

BTW, one scenario has Pontiac being axed, with Saturn moving into BPG (BSG?) and taking it's place.

How many people actually think the Grand Prix was a competitive car in its class? I know there are a few on here. Do you really think that it compared well with an Impala, Accord, or Camry?

I'd had more than a few rides in recent Grand Prixs (rental cars). The renters pretty much universally disliked them. Their styling resulted in interior space compromises, yet they weren't at all sporty. From what I could tell, they just didn't sell to non-captive private buyers.

On the other hand, some people actually do like the Impala -- mostly because of it's spaciousness. It's not trying to be something it's not, and it's pretty good at what it actually is (a large sedan).

Speaking with regard to the 97-03 GPs (the 04-08 ones don't count), if the GPs had a firmer suspension, and slightly more comfortable seats, then yes, it would have been right up at the top of the mid-size family sedan group.

My last 3 car purchases were all Pontiacs, and I planned on buying another (G8) until the economy shi!t the bed. I agree with Charlie that many of you seem to be all talk when it comes to begging for RWD V8 powered Pontiacs. When they show up, nobody seems to buy them.

I have had plenty of "old school" Pontiac guys lecture me on whether or not my GTO deserves the name. If I give one of them a ride, the story changes a bit :p

Speaking with regard to the 97-03 GPs (the 04-08 ones don't count), if the GPs had a firmer suspension, and slightly more comfortable seats, then yes, it would have been right up at the top of the mid-size family sedan group.

But they didn't , so they weren't.

I agree with Charlie that many of you seem to be all talk when it comes to begging for RWD V8 powered Pontiacs. When they show up, nobody seems to buy them.


I bought mine... G8 GT, but yeah... internet causes a lot of "Talk" and not enough follow through.

I still would love to see a Coupe 60 for sale... i'd buy that over the Camaro and I'm a Camaro Junkie!

I bought mine... G8 GT, but yeah... internet causes a lot of "Talk" and not enough follow through.

I still would love to see a Coupe 60 for sale... i'd buy that over the Camaro and I'm a Camaro Junkie!

Just curious, what about the Coupe 60 would make you buy it over the Camaro?

I agree with Charlie that many of you seem to be all talk when it comes to begging for RWD V8 powered Pontiacs. When they show up, nobody seems to buy them.



I've done my part, and then some.
I bought my 2002 T/A Collector Edition in 2001 and a 2007 Solstice GXP in 2008.
Bought both of them brand new.

But notice how they are REAL Pontiacs. High power, high style, great driving dynamics, RWD.

Just curious, what about the Coupe 60 would make you buy it over the Camaro?

I just really love the styling... in all reality it's the same chassis and set up as the Camaro but with a design that's more forward thinking. don't get me wrong, the new Camaro is beutiful and I'd love to own one someday but if I where to spend my money today I think I'd lean towards the Coupe 60.

Afterall, if I wanted a 60's looking Camaro for $30K I'd go and buy me a true '69...

I threw in the photochopped Pontiac version as well for reference on what this could look like for us.

I do really like the G8/Commodore that much and I think it's a lot of car for the money just like the Camaro is.

You know, I actually get more looks and thumbs up in my G8/GT than I do in either of my Camaro's (1984 & 1973 Z28). I'da never thought that would happen but the G8 just has that awesome street presence.


http://autofix.com.au/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/coupe60.jpg

http://cache.jalopnik.com/assets/resources/2008/02/gto_new_holden_coupe_60.jpg

http://cache.jalopnik.com/assets/resources/2008/02/gto_new_holden_coupe_60.jpg

:yes:

I would take that over a new Camaro as well...athough I do like the design of the Camaro a lot...

See, I think the Coupe 60 is good looking car.
HOWEVER, Pontiac purists will NOT buy this car. Why? Because it doesn't look like a Pontiac. It doesn't have the styling elements and cues that the great Pontiacs from the '60s and early '70s had.
I'm sure the structure is great. Just reskin the thing so that it looks like a real Pontiac.

Get the team that did the Camaro, and tell them to do to this car what they did for the Camaro. If you do that, you would have one kick-ass looking Pontiac.

:rolleyes: Because that wouldn't save Pontiac!!!

They need more badge-engineered vehicles sold at the dealer down the street to be saved? How about some exclusive, worthwhile product? :rolleyes:

I've done my part, and then some.
I bought my 2002 T/A Collector Edition in 2001 and a 2007 Solstice GXP in 2008.
Bought both of them brand new.

But notice how they are REAL Pontiacs. High power, high style, great driving dynamics, RWD.


I've driven the GTO, G8 and Solstice. All nice cars.

But the last REAL Pontiac I drove was my cousin's '79 W72 Trans Am. ;)

screw the Pontiac "pureists"


Pontiac is not going back to there own motors and we are not building a 66 GTO again.

If pontiac is to survive they need unique, no rebadge product. Basing anything on the 60-70's Pontiacs will just mean death to the brand.


The current Pontiac fans have bought and loved the new offerings. They fill the internet forums owning, racing, living the GTO, G8 and Solstice.

Not sure if they are enough to keep a niche brand alive. They can help, not some salty 04-06 GTO hating old man.

My last 3 car purchases were all Pontiacs, and I planned on buying another (G8) until the economy shi!t the bed. I agree with Charlie that many of you seem to be all talk when it comes to begging for RWD V8 powered Pontiacs. When they show up, nobody seems to buy them.

I have had plenty of "old school" Pontiac guys lecture me on whether or not my GTO deserves the name. If I give one of them a ride, the story changes a bit :p

Why did you postpone the purchase? Did you lose your job? Can't get financing? Lose a ton of money in the stock market? I'm just curious. Because people tightening their wallets because someone's screaming "the sky is faling!" only makes things worse.

They need more badge-engineered vehicles sold at the dealer down the street to be saved? How about some exclusive, worthwhile product? :rolleyes:

NO!!!! It wouldn't be any more badge engineered than the G8!! They aren't selling it in the US as a Chevy. Remember, the only thing that GM can afford for Pontiac are badge engineered vehicles.

I threw in the photochopped Pontiac version as well for reference on what this could look like for us.

I know many here have probably seen this already, but current thinking is that the Coupe 60 was actually built from the next generation GTO prototype that never saw daylight.

http://image.motortrend.com/f/9221234/112_news290802_06z+pontiac_GTO+front_end_drawing.j pg

http://www.motortrend.com/features/auto_news/2008/112_news290802_secret_pontiac_gto/index.html

The similarities to the coupe 60 are too close to ignore. I like the heritage inspired grille.

Why did you postpone the purchase? Did you lose your job? Can't get financing? Lose a ton of money in the stock market? I'm just curious. Because people tightening their wallets because someone's screaming "the sky is faling!" only makes things worse.

Lack of an expected raise, gas at $4/gallon (at the time), poor used car market to name a few. Not that I couldn't have done it....it just didn't make sense.

Unfortunately I don't think Pontiac is going to get by trying to redo the Trans Ams from the 1970's or GTO's from the 1960's. And that said I don't think they need to start with making some sort of V8 car with heritage cues to win buyers. That won't work.

The Opel hatch would be an excellent place to start. Put it head to head with the Golf and get something to beat the GTI. Keep the Solstice. Then you really need Alpha for the next slot. Rebuilding performance cred and attracting buyers is going to require something of a new paradigm that has nothing to do with sticking the largest V8 you have into a midsize car. They need to focus on the I4's and V6's +/- forced induction and capture the young crowd that is impressed by the number of acronyms the brochure has next to the motor. After that we can talk about the V8 cars. I think the G8 could really still stay since it is pretty much financed by the Aussie's. The Coupe 60 would be great, but it shouldn't be expected to save the brand.

On a slightly related note I personally wouldn't even keep the Buick name and would have Pontiac fill the gap in between Chevrolet and Cadillac. Because honestly there really shouldn't be a need for some bland cars that ride nice and have a few more features than you can get at Chevrolet. But there is something to be said for a brand that takes styling to more of an extreme and offers performance oriented suspension tuning standard. Although you can slap an SS badge and change the springs and shocks of a Chevrolet, you won't be able to radically alter the appearance, and I think Pontiac should be the place for the people that want more style to go. Another reason is that I just don't think that the Buick name (or really even Saturn) have as much equity in the US as Pontiac, at least not with younger buyers. And just because they have Buick in China doesn't mean you should keep the same name in the US...

.

On a slightly related note I personally wouldn't even keep the Buick name and would have Pontiac fill the gap in between Chevrolet and Cadillac. Because honestly there really shouldn't be a need for some bland cars that ride nice and have a few more features than you can get at Chevrolet.


Fancier Buicks with more expressive sheetmetal are on the way.

One thing that is apparent to me from at least late 2003 until now, that the traditional, big HP V8, RWD, is NOT what Pontiac does very successfully anymore. We need to face reality on this one, if Pontiac is to have one last chance for life.

I'm still not sure why people here have an issue with Pontiac being what it was for pretty much as long as I've been alive. From 1980 or so until Charlie's aforementioned 2003 window, a Pontiac was a performance-oriented Chevy with an edge. Compare a '97-'03 Grand Prix GTP to a Lumina/Impala...a '99-'05 Grand Am GT to a Malibu...even the old Twin Cam Grand Prixs and Turbo/Quad 4 Grand Ams to Luminas and Corsicas. In retrospect, none of those cars were outstanding in today's light. But back in '89?? How much did a 180hp 2.3L Grand Am stand out vs. a 110hp Prelude? I mean, really... :lol:

When Pontiac lost the aggressive look, and gave us marginal products versus great ones (compare '04 GP launch to '97 GP launch, then compare the sales performance...), that's when it lost its way. By trying to make the auto rags happy with cars like the G6, it lost even more sales.

I'm telling you...take a Cruze and a Malibu and dress them up, put some big wheels on them, give their tuning an edge, and let them loose. The engineering investment is far smaller than developing a Kappa chassis...and will sell a lot more.

Grand Am...Grand Prix...Firebird (nothing more than an upscale Camaro) as a halo car...give Pontiac back everything GM took away. And give it an AD BUDGET.

It doesn't need to be testosterone laden...it doesn't need to go head-to-head with Scion. Make it what it was. Why the hell is this so hard for people to understand?

I have a hunch that where many on this board say "Grand Am and Grand Prix were great names" and "people knew them" and "pontiac is the sporty, edgy, and exciting brand," most of America remembers the Grand Am and Grand Prix as lackluster, cheap, and generally undesirable rental cars, and thinks of pontiac as "Chevy Cars with a grill that looks like a BMW's if you squint."



I seriously couldn't disagree more with this statement...but I'm sure my opinion will be discounted because I was one of those dreaded dealers everyone loves to hate...

When I was on the front line, and Pontiac product was FRESH and RELEVANT in people's minds, people loved buying the cars. The Grand Prix was getting stale by '03, and the '04 re-design was un-loved by many (despite the fact that my wife and I love ours...reliable, nice style in black, and fun as hell to drive). Grand Ams were honestly getting a little stale by '02 when I bought my GT coupe...the interior was the real problem with those. But, to the target market for those cars? They loved the aggressive style, the handling, and the overall value of the car.

The rental car stigma of Pontiac was non-existant on the showroom floor. Want rental car stigma? Come talk to me about an Avenger or Sebring these days...that's rental car for you...

Jason,
I think people see your idea. I definately see it. And I see Charlie's too.

You'd like Pontiac to go back to what it was from '80-'03.
Charlie wants Pontiac to be kind of a Scion-like brand.
I'd like to see Pontiac go back to it's REAL roots. The late '50s-early '70s. Not so much in details & specifications, but more so in spirit.
(For example, imagine a Sunfire sized car. Now make it RWD. Give it that great Pontiac styling from the '60s (long hood, short deck, semi-fastback roofline, coke bottle fenders, wasp waist, some derivation of a stacked headlight theme, crisp, taught lines, minimal fuss), big brakes, tight, firm suspension, great, sporty driving dynamics, 6 spd manual transmission, driver oriented interiors (I still like the cockpit themes that were used on GPs from '69-'77), and then drop in the 260 horse Solstice motor. That car would be a real Pontiac! And there's NOTHING else like that on the market.)

I guess we all just disagree in the direction that Pontiac should go.

OK can we please stop exalting Scion as model for anything? It has been an abject failure for the Toyota Motor Corporation by failing to capture the youth market it was intended for and somehow managing to be one of the few small car brands to hemmorage sales during a period when all others were up due to skyrocketing gas prices. For reference- http://www.leftlanenews.com/scion-on-16-month-sales-slump.html

Pontiac's role is to support Buick? I guess they should start selling wheelchairs, oxygen masks, and bed rails.

I'd like to see Pontiac stick around but GM has too many brands.

Well for one--drop the epsilon G6.
Replace it with a RWD Alpha--2 and 4dr "Tempest"
(2.4L DI Ecotec, 3.0HF V6 and TC 3.0 HF V6)

Do not give one to Chevy.

I also think there must be entry level compact. No Cobalt clone, like the G5---very different looking and with its own 2dr hatch+ the normal 4dr.

From Pontiac's own blog http://pontiacunderground.typepad.com/
--------------
But, under no circumstances should you be writing the brand's obit. In the GM plan, Pontiac is definitely a player in the future, although with a smaller, more focused product line-up.

Now, exactly what that means is still open to some interpretation. But, we can tell you what we think it means... Pontiac is going to concentrate on doing what we do best, namely building sporty, good-looking cars, regardless of how many nameplates we have.

And that's fine with us because we really don't want to be a full-line brand and have been moving away from that for years. We will continue to be about cars, and don't have to be "something for everyone." That's the advantage that being in the same showroom as Buick and GMC gives us.

You want a premium people-mover? Hey, there's a great Buick Enclave sitting right there. Need to haul your boat or trailer? Wow, that GMC Sierra sure kicks butt. Want something sporty and fun? Pontiac is still here, still all about cars and we're in it for the long haul.
-------------

I gotta say, I've recently taken a close look at the Pontiac G8 GT. It is the FIRST pontiac that I've ever considered buying.

It's stylish, looks very well put together, has a great motor, and IMO it's a heck of a value for it's price range. And yes, I'm aware that it's just a rebadged Caddie CTS. That is kind of the beauty of it, because if you're looking for a sporty 4 door sedan and you can't afford a CTS-V, well then there's your answer!

What I would like to see happen, is the G8 become a Chevrolet, and Pontiac just go away all together. If I didn't want a Camaro so badly, I would seriously consider throwing down on a G8 GT.

What is the point of having so many product lines? Solstice and G8 should become Chevrolet, and the rest of the pontiac line should go away cuz they sho as hell aint makin 'em no money!

And yes, I'm aware that it's just a rebadged Caddie CTS.

Not at all. It's a completely different architecture. The CTS is on Sigma. The G8 and Camaro are on Zeta.

Not at all. It's a completely different architecture. The CTS is on Sigma. The G8 and Camaro are on Zeta.

The overall appearance of the two cars are very similar though, are you sure they don't share the same architecture?

The overall appearance of the two cars are very similar though, are you sure they don't share the same architecture?

Completely positive.

The overall appearance of the two cars are very similar though, are you sure they don't share the same architecture?

they do not. Zeta is brand new. Sigma is a few years old

I have a hunch that where many on this board say "Grand Am and Grand Prix were great names" and "people knew them" and "pontiac is the sporty, edgy, and exciting brand," most of America remembers the Grand Am and Grand Prix as lackluster, cheap, and generally undesirable rental cars, and thinks of pontiac as "Chevy Cars with a grill that looks like a BMW's if you squint."

I seriously couldn't disagree more with this statement...but I'm sure my opinion will be discounted because I was one of those dreaded dealers everyone loves to hate...

When I was on the front line, and Pontiac product was FRESH and RELEVANT in people's minds, people loved buying the cars. The Grand Prix was getting stale by '03, and the '04 re-design was un-loved by many (despite the fact that my wife and I love ours...reliable, nice style in black, and fun as hell to drive). Grand Ams were honestly getting a little stale by '02 when I bought my GT coupe...the interior was the real problem with those. But, to the target market for those cars? They loved the aggressive style, the handling, and the overall value of the car.

The rental car stigma of Pontiac was non-existant on the showroom floor. Want rental car stigma? Come talk to me about an Avenger or Sebring these days...that's rental car for you...

I don't know if your opinion should be discounted... I mean, it's probably no more or less statistically worthless than mine.

I would bet that when you ask a sample of the "target market" for the Grand Am about handling, style, and value, they would probably think of the Japanese alternatives (Accord/Civic/etc) as better styled and sharper handling... and where you refer to Pontiac's "value," the target market would refer to Pontiac as "cheap."

Again, I'm not saying my opinion is worth anything.




Another thing I keep hearing about is how great Pontiac used to be... Really? Their history doesn't seem that unique to me... they may have had their own line of engines and a history of performance, but all of their "performance" vehicles have essentially been available at other divisions. In fact, each of GM's brands have more or less been badge-engineered variations of each other since the 50's.

To me, that means Pontiac's 'heritage' isn't any more remarkable than that of Buick, Oldsmobile, Chevy, or Cadillac...

Oldsmobile is gone, and the all the other divisions mentioned have a "saving grace." Where Cadillac has managed to repair its image, Buick has become profitable in China, and Chevy has been able to move huge volumes.
Pontiac has done little to make itself worthwhile.

Saturn pulls buyers from import brands, Pontiac has it's unremarkable "heritage." I'd also mention that no one laughs at Saturn for hastily rebadging the Cobalt and Aveo...

Pontiac may move more volume than Saturn, but it's been on a downward spiral for some time. Saturn has been shedding it's image of "the plastic car company" and, with help from Opel, has been on the upswing where 'image' is concerned.

Pontiac is dead weight. Saturn's a keeper.

/My worthless opinion

When Pontiac lost the aggressive look, and gave us marginal products versus great ones (compare '04 GP launch to '97 GP launch, then compare the sales performance...)

give Pontiac back everything GM took away. And give it an AD BUDGET.

The 1997 GP Launch was everywhere. "Wider is better" (and they said it some other language too) was the name of the game. The new "wide track" grand prix. Flared fenders, supercharger, etc. Talk about advertising! Then the 04 launch was nonexistent.

Heck, in General it seems GMs advertising budget is tiny compared to Toyota, Honda and Ford - and when they get things right (like the "little brother" Cobalt ads) some pissy parents call in that itll ruin their children and the ads get cancelled. :(

While reading an Automotive News article (http://www.autonews.com/article/20081205/ANA08/812059965) today, it mentioned Pontiac slimming down to two models. They speculated that it would be the G8 and the Vibe. Why would you want to keep the Vibe?! I would think they would want to keep the G8 and Solstice so they could have a *performance* RWD niche division.

While reading an Automotive News article (http://www.autonews.com/article/20081205/ANA08/812059965) today, it mentioned Pontiac slimming down to two models. They speculated that it would be the G8 and the Vibe. Why would you want to keep the Vibe?! I would think they would want to keep the G8 and Solstice so they could have a *performance* RWD niche division.

Don't put stock in that report just yet.

The G8 is safe until at least the next Commodore & Solstice is safe till at least 2011. I'd put at least even money on both continuing on beyond that date.

G6, G5, & G3 are expendable. Very little went into the G6's restyling and both the G3 & G5 took minimal investments to create. The exception is the G6 coupe, which I expect to continue since it's the only US Espilon coupe... unless it's redone and goes to Chevrolet as a coupe counterpart to the upcoming FWD Impala (very possible).

Don't put stock in that report just yet.

The G8 is safe until at least the next Commodore & Solstice is safe till at least 2011. I'd put at least even money on both continuing on beyond that date.

G6, G5, & G3 are expendable. Very little went into the G6's restyling and both the G3 & G5 took minimal investments to create. The exception is the G6 coupe, which I expect to continue since it's the only US Espilon coupe... unless it's redone and goes to Chevrolet as a coupe counterpart to the upcoming FWD Impala (very possible).

When GM said Pontiac was a "non-core" brand and was backing off on product development, IMO it's a safer assumption that the "expendable" rebadges stay and everything else goes.

Vibe is a strong seller for Pontiac and a unique product for GM. It will probably be the Pontiac flagship going forward. :lol:

Also G6 coupe is similar in size to Camaro, so Chevy really doesn't need an Epsilon coupe. Maybe the G6 coupe will be replaced by the Buick Riviera shown last year.

Personally, for me, the real Pontiac died after 1981. After that, Pontiacs were just GM corporate cars with Pontiac specific snouts and cladding to me. I still would hate to see the brand go though. Maybe, just maybe, if it survives alittle longer, who knows what it might become in the future. Could even be something interesting.


Anyway, I can see the handwriting on the wall here. I can see how Pontiac will now be slowly marginalized (actually, not so slowly), starved of product, and eventually when no one wants to buy one anymore, it will be killed without any fanfare or complaint. I'd hate to see that. I'd want Pontiac to survive - and maybe get another chance. And that just isn't going to happen unless Pontiac can at least get one product which becomes a smash hit. One product which stirs excitement with more than just 12,000 buyers per year.

You know, I've got to say this, (and I mean no offence here - but it needs to said), lots of people who proclaim themselves "Pontiac Enthusiasts" have inadvertantly harmed this brand. I mean all this talk about Pontiac being this or that and all the screaming and yelling for a GTO, and when it FINALLY gets here >crickets<. Same thing with the G8. I mean jeez-o-pete guys.

Pontiac needs a product which can make a BIG splash with some segment. Probably the under 25 crowd. Something which can create cult status, like the Mini did or the xB did, or the VW GTi did in the early '80's - or the GTO in 1964.
I say, take a chance.

One thing that is apparent to me from at least late 2003 until now, that the traditional, big HP V8, RWD, is NOT what Pontiac does very successfully anymore. We need to face reality on this one, if Pontiac is to have one last chance for life.

EVO competitor....

Some of us have been screaming this since the G6 came out.

My last 3 car purchases were all Pontiacs, and I planned on buying another (G8) until the economy shi!t the bed. I agree with Charlie that many of you seem to be all talk when it comes to begging for RWD V8 powered Pontiacs. When they show up, nobody seems to buy them.

I have had plenty of "old school" Pontiac guys lecture me on whether or not my GTO deserves the name. If I give one of them a ride, the story changes a bit :p


The fact of the matter is this:

It's hard to measure how well ANY car is doing in this market, much less the G8. (Because of it's size and nature)

Let's wait until the market rebounds and then see what happens.

I've done my part, and then some.
I bought my 2002 T/A Collector Edition in 2001 and a 2007 Solstice GXP in 2008.
Bought both of them brand new.

But notice how they are REAL Pontiacs. High power, high style, great driving dynamics, RWD.

+1

Pontiac has such a STRONG identity, that it has almost backed itself into a corner in regards to offering 'something different' or 'a full line'

GM needs to realize this and capitalize on it.

The 1997 GP Launch was everywhere. "Wider is better" (and they said it some other language too) was the name of the game. The new "wide track" grand prix. Flared fenders, supercharger, etc. Talk about advertising! Then the 04 launch was nonexistent.

Heck, in General it seems GMs advertising budget is tiny compared to Toyota, Honda and Ford - and when they get things right (like the "little brother" Cobalt ads) some pissy parents call in that itll ruin their children and the ads get cancelled. :(


+1....

GM can make all of the great products they want but until they hire marketing people that have a clue, sales aren't going to improve.

I don't know why they can't understand this...

FOG

please use the xQuote button next to the quote button to select multiple posts to quote in one post. It is much easier to read.

EVO competitor....

Some of us have been screaming this since the G6 came out.


http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2007/03/opel_gtc_concept_03_l.jpg

^ What is that? Opel.......

^ What is that? Opel.......



Yup. That's the G6's European cousin.

What's the model name?

That's the Opel GTC concept. It has a turbo V6 and AWD.

That's the Opel GTC concept. It has a turbo V6 and AWD.

And to my knowledge it is not only not going into production but was a preview of the now in production Opel Insignia.

And to my knowledge it is not only not going into production but was a preview of the now in production Opel Insignia.

Exactly.

Here is another off the wall idea to keep Pontiac alive, since nobody commented at all on my previous one: make Pontiac a single and specific model. To be perfectly honest the Solstice embodies exactly what Pontiac should represent: style and performance with no compromises (ignore the part about it being a convertible). IF it became needed to kill the brand why not make it into a specific model that showcases exactly what the heritage of the brand stands for (instead of being just another Chevy rebadge.

Another option is to make it a sport trim (like the V-series) for Buick or Chevrolet. The cars would get performance upgrades and a Pontiac badge, nothing more. Note I think Ford should do this with Mercury as well, but instead of performance upgrades just make it an up-level luxury trim.

thats nuts....A Chevrolet Ponitac?:no: thats keeping it alive? In a ungodly zombie way perhaps

thats nuts....A Chevrolet Ponitac?:no:

Why not the Pontiac brand started out as the Oakland Pontiac model? And who said it had to be Chevy (Buick and Caddy will both be around)?

People don't have a problem with GMC becoming a trim line on Chevy SUVs so why should they have a problem with Pontiac becoming a trim line on Chevy cars?

Another option is to make it a sport trim (like the V-series) for Buick or Chevrolet.

Unfortunately, Pontiac is FAR from having the type of cache required for something like that.

Unfortunately, Pontiac is FAR from having the type of cache required for something like that.

Or cachet :D

I'm much more concerned with GM's survival than Pontiac's. The G6 is the only Pontiac left that's a little bit unique other than the nose. Everything else is a minimal to mild restyling of a Toyota, Holden, or Chevy. Unfortunately, the Malibu is now better than the G6, leaving the G6 unique in a bad way.

So at this point, Pontiac doesn't have much left except for GM nostalgia enthusiasts. I just don't see that market being big enough to support a brand.

On the other hand, killing Pontiac will deprive BPG dealers of a brand, and you don't want to move Buick back down-market. So keeping Pontiac around and using it to sell mildly restyled Chevys, Toyotas, or Holdens probably makes sense. It prevents GM from losing customers loyal to a particular BPG dealer, and it lets GM keep giving BPG dealers a relatively complete lineup. It also leaves open the possibility of GM throwing a bone to the nostalgia enthusiasts at some point in the future when they can spare the effort.

I wish they could have done that with Olds, so that I could buy an Olds 442 (rebadged Commodore SS).

Or cachet :D

I'm much more concerned with GM's survival than Pontiac's. The G6 is the only Pontiac left that's a little bit unique other than the nose. Everything else is a minimal to mild restyling of a Toyota, Holden, or Chevy. Unfortunately, the Malibu is now better than the G6, leaving the G6 unique in a bad way.

So at this point, Pontiac doesn't have much left except for GM nostalgia enthusiasts. I just don't see that market being big enough to support a brand.

On the other hand, killing Pontiac will deprive BPG dealers of a brand, and you don't want to move Buick back down-market. So keeping Pontiac around and using it to sell mildly restyled Chevys, Toyotas, or Holdens probably makes sense. It prevents GM from losing customers loyal to a particular BPG dealer, and it lets GM keep giving BPG dealers a relatively complete lineup. It also leaves open the possibility of GM throwing a bone to the nostalgia enthusiasts at some point in the future when they can spare the effort.

I wish they could have done that with Olds, so that I could buy an Olds 442 (rebadged Commodore SS).


Cachet it is. ;)

It's pretty apparent that Pontiac will have right around a zero dollar budget for new products - so in "support" of the Buick brand, I agree, Pontiac is destined to consist of already developed rebadged products. That is, until it's killed or displaced by Saturn within BPG.

Olds huh? I have great affinity for Olds. I wonder if a Commodore based 442 would have been rejected for having too many doors. I'll tell you though, if it had all the right doo-dads, it'd be hard for me to resist.

Cachet it is. ;)

It's pretty apparent that Pontiac will have right around a zero dollar budget for new products - so in "support" of the Buick brand, I agree, Pontiac is destined to consist of already developed rebadged products. That is, until it's killed or displaced by Saturn within BPG.

Olds huh? I have great affinity for Olds. I wonder if a Commodore based 442 would have been rejected for having too many doors. I'll tell you though, if it had all the right doo-dads, it'd be hard for me to resist.

4 hundred hp, 4 doors, 2 exhaust

Works great! :cool:

And to my knowledge it is not only not going into production but was a preview of the now in production Opel Insignia.

Why don't they replace the Lucerne with it and call it the Regal like they do in China? Especially with a optional turbo motor I see a halo nameplate returning. :D

Why don't they replace the Lucerne with it and call it the Regal like they do in China? Especially with a optional turbo motor I see a halo nameplate returning. :D

Because the Lucerne is a whole calss size larger than this. But it would (will) make a nice replacement for the Lacrosse. The Buick full size car sold in China (Holden Statesman) would make an excellent stablemate also, but the dealers crapped on that idea because they wanted to keep the FWD Lucerne around longer. Go figure :irk:

Because the Lucerne is a whole calss size larger than this. But it would (will) make a nice replacement for the Lacrosse. The Buick full size car sold in China (Holden Statesman) would make an excellent stablemate also, but the dealers crapped on that idea because they wanted to keep the FWD Lucerne around longer. Go figure :irk:

My guess:
New Lacrosse -> Replaces Lucerne
New Regal (Insigina) -> Replaces LaCrosse

At least in price if not in size. (And these cars are already out in China.)

Why not the Pontiac brand started out as the Oakland Pontiac model? And who said it had to be Chevy (Buick and Caddy will both be around)?

People don't have a problem with GMC becoming a trim line on Chevy SUVs so why should they have a problem with Pontiac becoming a trim line on Chevy cars?


I just don't believe the public would go for it.

Just cause something started a certain way does not mean you can go back.

Keep Pontiac a real car--not a badge on Chevy ect