What would be the 5th gen deal breaker?

What specifit would make you say, I'm not buying that!

Ofcourse the obvious: FWD and no V8, but what else?

Will have Vette by then.

Thoughts?

Hmmm...

Styling springs to mind. I think GM will have the mechanicals pretty well good to go.

Folks REALLY like T-tops, and Camaro would be the only affordable car with them methinks.

Available manual transmission.

In essence, it needs to be a Camaro...

2+2, big motor, aggressive styling, benchmark performance.

I won't buy if it's....

Over priced
Over weight (3500lbs.+)
underpowered (more than 10lbs. per HP)
Ugly

I agree with PX, I think the mechanical aspects will be handled....hopefully I won't be disappointed.

But turn-offs for me would be....

Excessively large exterior dimensions.
Poor styling.
Quality that is not "class leading".
Excessive weight.
Lack of knowledge/respect for Camaro's lineage.

My turn offs would be:

Blatantly retro styling (which should surprise no one)
I can't afford it (over $30K for a low option Z28)
It's really heavy (over 3400lbs fully loaded)
It becomes a GT cuiser rather than rat racer
For some reason, I just look at it and go, "That does nothing for me."

So if the car comes in at 3600 lbs what are you going to buy instead?

Originally posted by Chris 96 WS6
So if the car comes in at 3600 lbs what are you going to buy instead?

I don't know. I might keep my '98 until the miles get kinda high then reserve it for autosrossing/weekend joyriding. Maybe an RX-8, or Audi TT, 2 year old CTS-V, Mistu EVO or WRX.

Of if i've hit the lottery or get my invention to the market place...an SLR(!)

Now here's the 'askertisk' to the weight issue. If it weighs in at 3600 lbs, but handles like a much lighter car, then weight probably would not be a deal breaker. For comparison's sake, while I haven't driven a GTO yet, I'm under the impression it's isn't as crisp feeling a car as the last generation F-bods.

In general, I want a sports car, not a GT cruiser.

Of course, by 2007/8 I'll be 36 (OMG!) and I might want a truck..

:eek:

Or maybe even an SUV...

:shock:

...in which case I'll have to have 'Z284ever' to shoot me.

Originally posted by Chris 96 WS6
So if the car comes in at 3600 lbs what are you going to buy instead?

Used C6, what ever mustang is 350HP, Charger :)

It needs to maintain that magic 10lbs. per HP number.

I'd probably still buy it at 3600lbs. but I wouldn't want any more than that, it would also need 360HP out of the base V8 then at that weight.

For me:

1. Price - I'm not expecting a lower-$20k V8 necessarily, but I'd like to be in a V8 for under $30k.

2. Styling - If it's too retro, it may take me awhile to like it, and by that time I might have already gotten something else.

This wont prevent a sale... but a monstrous chrome bar on the front end is a huge turnoff.

I agree with the above mentioned stuff, too. But one other thing I would like to see is suspension system like the 50th Ann. Vette (magnetic ride) and better brakes. Going ba!!s out is nice, but so is outbraking someone into a corner is nice, too.

Taking too long to bring it to market.
In all honesty, I belive that any powertrain GM puts in will be powerful enough blow the doors off an equaly priced mustang.
I want a Z28, which leads me to that I dont want the Z28 to be the top rung becaue then im gunna have to pay out the rear for a Z28, and I dont want that. Give me an LS2, 6spd, 17 inch rims, 4/2 pistion calipers, 13 inch brakes, cloth bucket seats, and in red and keep it as close you can to 26k.
Let the SS boys pay the extra money for scoops, gfx, 20's with spinners...etc etc... I want my stripper Z.
If its retro styled, ill still buy it because the Camaro is just gunna die out again in a few years, so I want to get one before they shut it down again.
Unless they price it up next to the vettle, there really wont be a thing to stop me from getting it as long as its a "Camaro" at heart. 2+2 seater, V8, RWD, 6spd manual, good handling, and nice interior and not fugly.

Originally posted by dream '94 Z28

...in which case I'll have to have 'Z284ever' to shoot me.


I'll be there for ya, Tim.;)

Originally posted by dream '94 Z28

...in which case I'll have to have 'Z284ever' to shoot me.


I'll be there for ya, Tim.;)

1. overly retro, or otherwise bad styling
2. old-school live rear axle/mac struts, ala the 'stang
3. overweight (>3400 lbs, depending on actual size)
4. No manual tranny
5. crap performance/quality control (obviously)
6. overpriced (obviously)
7. an drivetrain package which cannot be modified relatively easily/cheaply, like the S2000 which is just about max tuned from the factory
8. crap gas mileage (has to be said)
9. not available in hugger orange:o !!!

I know I'm in the distinct minority, but a turbo I-6 or AWD are not turnoffs to me...but to answer the question about what i'd get if the weight was over 3600, I'd get a stang, 350Z, EVO, or something to that effect which can be modded into a street terror...I know options like the charger and new GTO are coming, but I'm more inclined to nimble, lighter, sharp-handling and braking cars rather than larger straightline boulevard cruisers...

The Z28 needs to be an affordable good looking RWD V8. Plus it needs to stay faster than the Rustang GT. Let the Camaro SS run with the Cobras.

These would definetly break it for me:

-The Z28 not the top "Z06" Camaro (mismanaged designations)
-No in-between V8 mid-models
-Lousy styling again
-Retro styling
-Generic interior
-Prices too high
-Not enough options
-Boring lower model cars
-No T-Tops

I won't buy it if it doesn't do anything for me visually. I didn't like the 4th gen at first, but it grew on me (in about 3 months) and I bought one.

And of course, price.

If it is too "Sedan-like".

Won't buy one if:
1.It's too plain alla Z28 looks like the V6.
2.If it's a 4 door.
3.If it has a generic interior,generic-looking dash like the 4ths had.
4.has severe overhangs
5.doesn't look Camaro-ish
6.crappy wheels,though aftermarkets would be an easy fix but woud rather stock.
7.overpriced-would like to see the Z28 stay in the $22-25K range
8.If the RS is more sportier/muscular looking than the Z28.
9.ugly
10.If I can't afford it :p

Originally posted by IZ28
-The Z28 not the top "Z06" Camaro (mismanaged designations)


So if the car is an absolute home run in terms of power, styling, chassis dynamics, interior design, quality and pricing but is called Camaro ZZR (or something) instead of Z28 it's a deal breaker? That sounds a bit silly.

Yall are argueing about weight, look at the 4th gens, they aren't so light, but you still have one. 3,500 is nothing.

Originally posted by IZ28
These would definetly break it for me:

-No in-between V8 mid-models

-Boring lower model cars


Are you planning to buy a mid range V8? If so why would you not buy that car because the V6 model isn't to your taste?

I'd like to see 2 V8s also, but if the only V8 is a 400HP LS2 you will not hear me complain.

Originally posted by Ed 2001 SS
So if the car is an absolute home run in terms of power, styling, chassis dynamics, interior design, quality and pricing but is called Camaro ZZR (or something) instead of Z28 it's a deal breaker? That sounds a bit silly.

A "Z/28 type" car not called Z/28....would rain on my parade too.

Or maybe even worse...a "non-Z/28 type" car called Z/28 would really ruin my day.

Why even bullsh!t around with it? Just get it right, and everyone's happy. No problem.

Originally posted by Z28x
Are you planning to buy a mid range V8? If so why would you not buy that car because the V6 model isn't to your taste?

I'd like to see 2 V8s also, but if the only V8 is a 400HP LS2 you will not hear me complain.

ahaha agreed. I really dont care if there is no mid range V8.

If the base gets teh 3.9, the RS gets a 5.3 and the Z28 and SS share the ~400hp LS2, Im still gunna be in the Z28's seat. I will be quazi-diapointed, but it wont stop me from buying. Same goes for "if the Z28 isnt the top model" stuff. I dont want the Z28 model to be tops!! I WANT MY STRIPPER Z28!! It can be faster then the SS, but leave the SS trim with the leather and wings and scoops with onstar etc etc etc in the 30+ range.
and yeah, the 4th gen is 3500+lbs, but you guys are happy? I say if it gets above 3700 full loaded, then we have problems. Lets be real people. The car will have IRS along with a better quality car. Its gunna cost us in weight. I can live with the car if its 3550-3600. I still got the power! :D

Originally posted by Big Als Z
I WANT MY STRIPPER Z28!! :D

I think you may be disappointed Al. It's tough to even get a stripper Aveo anymore. A 5th gen Z/28 will certainly not be a stripper. "Content limited", yes. "Stripper", no.

Originally posted by Z284ever
A "Z/28 type" car not called Z/28....would rain on my parade too.

I could understand it raining on your parade, but IZ28 is talking about cancelling the parade! :)

As far as a midrange V8, it would be nice but I wouldn't buy it. I want the biggest baddest V8 available!

Originally posted by IZ28
These would definetly break it for me:

-No in-between V8 mid-models
-Boring lower model cars
Why would it matter to you since you are buying a Z28 anyway?Not all people can afford the higher end models. I also think that it would be great for the Camaro/sales if there were low-midrange (V6/V8) models also.It helped 3rdgen sales and perhaps it guarunteed a 4th generation to be produced.Maybe it would strive people to want to save for the higher end models in the mean time.

Eh, I have a V6 Firebird, and while it's much better than my old car, I do yearn a bit for more power. But, then I may not have been able to afford it. Who knows.

Heh, I know a good deal breaker, it's not going to be a Firebird :p .

Things that would really dissapoint me:

1. excessive weight. I think 3400-3500 is already too much, and then you get into a cage, drieshaft loop, big blower or turbo, intercooler, fire extinguisher, etc. these things add weight ya know ;)

2. limited levels. 3rd gens are some of my favorite cars ever, and you could get them in alot of trim levels. kept the idea of owning one alive for alot more people. i think that needs to be there

3. a useless v6. not that its a dissapointment really, but I think it would be interesting to make a usable and cheap v6 for the masses, but one that also has an aftermarket or GM parts support to go faster. There are plenty of GN guys and GTP guys having fun with their 6s, so there may be kids getting suck with v6s that later want to make theirs move too. this way they actually could do so. This would also require more cars to have solid parts, and I dont have to walk through junkyards or car lots saying "damn, a v6, nothing worth having for parts here"

4. no ttops. Ill take TTops, I'll take targa top. But I want some sort of open roof and I dont want a convertible.

5. the wait. 2008??? I have no idea where I will be financially or car wise 3-4 years from now, that is rediculous.



Things that would make me not buy one:

1. If I hated how it looked. Which I doubt will be the case.

2. If it really is excessively heavy. I dont need a caprice. If it has 2 doors and is sporty, what the hell am I doing over 3600lbs. You know how much faster and how much better gas mileage and how much better I could turn without the weight, damn

3. Any serious oversight on buildup. If it has its own achilles heel, or "10 bolt", if you will. Something so glaringly wrong that you wonder if they ever stopped to think before they built the car.



I plan on having one in my driveway. If not it will be a new charger, or an old charger or camaro (or both) that I build. OR a huffy moutain bike, because gas prices are retarded ;)

With the powertrains GM has been having lately Idont think power will be an issue. And from everything Ive read, and seen I think the stylig will be adequate.

The only really limiting factor for me will be price. I worry about it being overpriced.

I should have worded it different. I kinda listed things that would break it for me and added in some things that should be done too. (and that might do the same for alot of other people too)

Originally posted by Z284ever
I think you may be disappointed Al. It's tough to even get a stripper Aveo anymore. A 5th gen Z/28 will certainly not be a stripper. "Content limited", yes. "Stripper", no.


Ok, not stripper, but I dont want the trinkets and whatever that would come with a top-end model. Just the basics with a few options, thats all. I think Id option XM radio, thats all. I dont need 6 disk stuff, or do I need OnStar tracking my every move. I like OnStar, but maybe for a sedan. I dont want to get an e-speeding ticket.;)

Just give me what I need to build off of. Build a strong basis for a moddable sports car. the Gen IV blocks are probably stronger then the Gen III's, so thats awesome. Id pay extra for a forged bottom end, but not for leather seats and a 15 speaker, 600 watt stereo.

That's basically what we're saying here. Limited content.

My deal breaker will be price. If the Z-28 is in the mid $40k range, my wife will never let me get one. :p

Originally posted by Big Als Z
Ok, not stripper, but I dont want the trinkets and whatever that would come with a top-end model. Just the basics with a few options, thats all. I think Id option XM radio, thats all. I dont need 6 disk stuff, or do I need OnStar tracking my every move. I like OnStar, but maybe for a sedan. I dont want to get an e-speeding ticket.;)

Just give me what I need to build off of. Build a strong basis for a moddable sports car. the Gen IV blocks are probably stronger then the Gen III's, so thats awesome. Id pay extra for a forged bottom end, but not for leather seats and a 15 speaker, 600 watt stereo.

I agree with Al here too. I have the original window sticker for my '98. The only option was the Monsoon stereo. Which I believe was the right option. New the car was $21,800. I really don't miss cruise control that much.

In a sports car I like simplity. No leather, to T-tops, no 'candy' as it used to be said. I'd just like the option of still finding a car like that.

What would be a dealbreaker for me? :think:


AUTOMATIC HEADLIGHTS WITHOUT THE ABILITY TO TURN OFF THE FUNCTION (and I don't mean by leaving my brake on either)!!!!! :mad:

I WILL NEVER BUY A CAR WITH THIS THING EVER AGAIN!!


That pretty much completely covers it. :)

Originally posted by guionM
What would be a dealbreaker for me? :think:


AUTOMATIC HEADLIGHTS WITHOUT THE ABILITY TO TURN OFF THE FUNCTION (and I don't mean by leaving my brake on either)!!!!! :mad:

I WILL NEVER BUY A CAR WITH THIS THING EVER AGAIN!!


That pretty much completely covers it. :)

Why's that? I thought it was a really cool feature on my '98, much cooler than I would've thought.

Originally posted by dream '94 Z28
Why's that? I thought it was a really cool feature on my '98, much cooler than I would've thought.

My GTP has that, I never even have to turn on the lights. It had daytime running lights, and when it gets dark out, the reg lights come on automitcally. Then wehn I get out of the car, they turn off auto too.

Originally posted by Z28x
I won't buy if it's....

Over priced
Over weight (3500lbs.+)
underpowered (more than 10lbs. per HP)
Ugly
i agree totally:)

Originally posted by dream '94 Z28
Why's that? I thought it was a really cool feature on my '98, much cooler than I would've thought.

If you have to frequently go onboard Federal Installations or any guarded facility (where you have to turn off your lights or guards have a cow... or worse), or have your neighbor's bedroom window right in front of your apartment parking space, or even once in a blue moon do some surveillance, indefeateable headlights becomes the most stupid & idiotic invention since pet rocks! I thought daytime running lights were bad. This is worse.

If you like having your lights on when you drive, turn the things on. It's not nearly as difficult as, say, shifting a manual or even tuning a stereo.

If you are going to have "auto lights" standard, at least have a feature where you can switch it to manual. I can switch off my traction control which actually prevents serious accidents, yet I can't even turn off my own lights when I'm in a situation I need to turn them off? Please!

It's logic that if these things turn on if you release the brake, it should turn off if you set the brake. It's also logical that if you install a light switch in the car, it shouldn't be for 'entertainment purposes only'. It also is f*cked up that GM won't let their dealers fix them because it's a "safety feature" (I don't swear here, but that's exactly how I feel regarding those lights). Whoever thought of this should be shot.



No........ I am not kidding.



I've gotten so much grief and heartburn because of mine that I don't care how good the next Camaro is, if it has these damn lights I can't turn off, I'll buy a Mustang.

Mustangs don't have those daytime running lights either!

I've seen it in a couple of nwer (after 2002) Chevy trucks that have a DRL defeat option on the light switchgear.

I appreciate what your saying and agree that the defreat option should be there (I can 'tolerate' the DRLs that are the turnsignals but hate te 60% high beams). I'm not sure, but I think a big reason GM has it isn't so much safety as (I think) the DRLs are a gov't mandate in Canada.

LOL :lol:

Another vote here for no DRL's at all or making them optional.

Originally posted by Ramune
Heh, I know a good deal breaker, it's not going to be a Firebird :p .

Agreed. Although it will be interesting to see what the styling of the 5th Gen wil be like. Firebird had better styling (and even a better name). If the next Camaro looks really awesome then maybe I would be persuaded. Put some Pontiac badges and a screaming chicken on it and have the only 5th Gen Firebird...

I actually think DRL's can look cool on certain models. I like how they look on the F-bods and Corvette, but that's about it. I'm with you guionM on the auto headlights. I miss doing it myself on the '94. I'm going to consider doing the ol' delete mod this summer....

Ergonomics would be a deal breaker for me. If im not comfortable behind the wheel and things arent logically laid out, I would look else where.

Originally posted by Steal-Dragon
Ergonomics would be a deal breaker for me. If im not comfortable behind the wheel and things arent logically laid out, I would look else where.

I cant belive thats coming from a Supra owner, I hate the interios or those things.

Also agree about the lights. I never liked that whole automatic lights turning on and off. I think its just pure lazyness. You cant move your hand 3 inches to turn or flip a switch to turn on your lights, you dont deserve to be behind a wheel. As for DRL's, Id like the option to turn it off, but the idea behind the concept. I always know when a GM car is coming down the highway when you can see that dark amber driving lights from miles away! :D

DRL's were nothing more that a cost saving item on Camaro. Canada requires DRL's. It was cheaper to manufacture them all with DRL's....than it was to manufacter Canadian cars with and American cars without.

I've been against DRL's since the beginning...

I know they are supposed to make cars 'safer', but if this is the case, why is it pretty much only GM doing it?

The cost must be minimal, and you'd think Ford and Chrysler would be quick to copy if it were worthwile.

Originally posted by Darth Xed
I've been against DRL's since the beginning...

I know they are supposed to make cars 'safer', but if this is the case, why is it pretty much only GM doing it?

The cost must be minimal, and you'd think Ford and Chrysler would be quick to copy if it were worthwile.

If the cost of making wiring for both DRLs for Canada & a non-DRL setup for the US is just 25 cents, with GM's volume of say 4 million vehicles per year that's 1 million dollars profit for absolutely nothing!

Add in the fact that Canada requires DRL yet is a relative small fraction of GM's total sales, GM gets to spread the cost of DRLs throughout the 4 million cars sold in the US instaead of only the 240 thousand it sells there.

So Daytime Running Lights here is not as much a safety item as it is GM is making money on Canada's requirement on DRLs by forcing the rest of us to pay for them as well.

If I knew my 97 Camaro had them (and those automatic lights) I would have bought a older used Z28.

A good rule of thumb for adding a single wire within an existing harness is $.25 per wire.

That's one wire, not inculding the connectors at the ends, or any controller architecture.

Now, I'm a fan of DRL's, I think they're a good, cheap safety enhancement. Even with them on, my car has been completely missed by someone pulling out (I posted the story here).

Note that motorcycle lights are ALWAYS on to aid visibility. I am half-tempted to leave my brights on 24/7 on my bikes.

They should, however, be defeatable for approaching guardhouses and the like. Unfortunately, on any car, this adds complexity and cost. Probably worth it though...


If memory serves, DRL's are mandated in Europe.

The cost savings certainly makes sense... but again, why haven't Ford and Chrysler jumped on this if it is so worthwhile?

Aren't DRLs easy to defeat? I don't understand why some people get so upset about something like this. I can understand if the lights being on causes a security issue but other than that, I don't see why it is such a big deal, at least not a "deal breaker". It is like someone not buying a Corvette or F-body because of the skip shift feature. Just buy a .75 resistor and plug it into the skip shift harness, problem solved.

I like auto headlights, but they should have an option to turn them off. The only bad experience I had with them is at the drive-ins. It sucks there is no way to turn them off once they come on.

GM is fixing this problem, the '04 Grand Prix lets you set the headlights to on/parking/off/auto

Originally posted by Z28x
I like auto headlights, but they should have an option to turn them off. The only bad experience I had with them is at the drive-ins. It sucks there is no way to turn them off once they come on.

GM is fixing this problem, the '04 Grand Prix lets you set the headlights to on/parking/off/auto

Ya, our 04 GTP lets you turn off the headlamps, and it displays a "HEADLAMPS SUGGESTED" message on the D.I.C. after you turn them off... as far as I know, though, you have to turn them off every time still, and there is no way to "permanently turn off" the auto headlamps, though I havent read through the whole owner's manual to see if that is an option, since the autoheadlamps are not a huge bother to me...

Still turns the DRL's back on though when you manually turn off the headlmaps and get the "HEADLAMPS SUGGESTED" message...

Originally posted by Darth Xed
Ya, our 04 GTP lets you turn off the headlamps, and it displays a "HEADLAMPS SUGGESTED" message on the D.I.C.

Still turns the DRL's back on though... How do you like your 04 GTP? How much HP does it have?

Originally posted by Lt1 and Ls1
How do you like your 04 GTP? How much HP does it have?

Well, my wife drives it every day, not me, but we like it alot... only a few complaints, really... the plastic on the dash is kind of "hard" and somewhat "cheap" looking...

The headliner is a little 'loose' (not saggy) where the overhead storage is... like it needs a couple of retainer clips or something underneath it to better anchor it.

There is a known "headlamp wobble" issue... if you drive down a bumpy road, you can see the light 'wobble' slightly, though nothing seems to be loose... I guess this is a common problem on 04 GP's.

Other than that, we love it... 260 Horsepower... very quick for what it is!

Here are some pics... sorry for the sub-par lighting.

http://www.cardomain.com/memberpage/466733

Sweet car! Yall dont have the z28 anymore?

Originally posted by Lt1 and Ls1
Sweet car! Yall dont have the z28 anymore?

No. :(

I miss it a lot too. I sold it 22 months ago to buy the Monte SS... the Z28 was needing some out-of-warranty things done (clutch, brakes, etc), and the rebates were fantastic on the Montes.

I tried to get a WS6 T/A, but none could be found with a stick.

I love the Monte a lot, actually... BY FAR the best built car I have ever owned. I am not exaggerating when I say I have not had a SINGLE ISSUE with it at all... but...it's just not the same, ya know?

Originally posted by Darth Xed
I tried to get a WS6 T/A, but none could be found with a stick.

So you bought a MC that doesn't come with a stick :D

Have you looked at the new S/C Monte SS yet?

Originally posted by Z28x
So you bought a MC that doesn't come with a stick :D

Have you looked at the new S/C Monte SS yet?

Ya... lol. go figure on my goofy logic! :o To be honest, the QUALITY factor was big. If I couldnt get a manual WS6, I didnt want it... I knew the Monte's Quality was excellent because my wife (fiancee at the time) had an 01 SS... I knew the F-body's quality was so-so from experience.

I looked at the SC SS's, ya, but I think I am just going to hold off and see what comes out in the near future.

Right now, if I were to buy a new daily driver, it'd be a CTS, a GTO, or a 2005 Mustang. I have issues with all 3. The CTS is a 4 door. The GTO has it's 'odditities" (trunk, reverse radio controlls, no Onstar) , and somewhat bland styling), the 2005 Mustang is retro (boo)... but the price and equipment is appealing.

Originally posted by Darth Xed
The cost savings certainly makes sense... but again, why haven't Ford and Chrysler jumped on this if it is so worthwhile?

I don't know for sure, but as my experience with executives, finance people, and their 'funny money' math, 2 + 2 for GM could equal something different than for Ford and something all together different for DCX.

Originally posted by SNEAKY NEIL
Aren't DRLs easy to defeat? I don't understand why some people get so upset about something like this. I can understand if the lights being on causes a security issue but other than that, I don't see why it is such a big deal, at least not a "deal breaker". It is like someone not buying a Corvette or F-body because of the skip shift feature. Just buy a .75 resistor and plug it into the skip shift harness, problem solved.

Skip shift? Just crawl under your car and unplug it, that's all. Considerably easier to solve than ripping your dash apart to get at the auto-light sensor.

I simply refuse to pay $625+ per month for the next 4 years of my life for a car that I'm going to have to spend time, money, and possibly voiding part of the warranty simply because GM want's to save 25 cents per car. If it's no big deal, then they can opt not to put them on in the 1st place.

My dad recently brought a Silverado Z71. What's the only thing he dislikes about his truck? Indefeatable auto lights. He wasn't aware they had them till after he had it the 1st night. I doubt he'll reach the level of hatred I have of the things because I've been in seemingly endless situations where the things were a complete pain or worse.

Those f*cking autolights lights nearly got me cited more than once while entering San Diego's Navy base because I didn't dim my lights for the guard (this was when the base was on high alert immediately after 9/11, and everyone was armed and on edge! :mad: ).

As the buyer & customer, I don't have to have the mentality to accept something I don't want when spending my own hard earned money if there are other options out there. GM no longer makes the only hot handling, affordably quick American made RWD cars.

One way or the other, I simply won't be dealing with non-defeatable auto headlights again.

Period.