We now have enough info on what the next Camaro looks like.

Keep in mind, things can change between now and the time the machinery orders go out.

However, we do have enough information to piece together what the next Camaro... er, I mean "Chevrolet division's version of GM's performance chassis" is going to look like. Enough people are coming forward and there is enough photoshop and artistic talent to give a pretty unmistakable common theme as to what the next performance coupe from Chevrolet is going to look like.

Where's !!TED!! when you need him. :)

Starting from here:
http://www.wyattcon.net/images/F5Camaro.jpg

We are told by people who have seen it or extremely creditble people who have access to those who have seen it that although the front end is almost dead perfect there are items that need to be changed. Combined with my added prodding and a few extra tidbits, here's what is different:

* The mirrors blend into the fenders a-la 4th gen Camaro.
* The windshield has a faster angle, though not as extreme as the 4th gen
* The roofline although accurate as far as being a coupe isn't quite right.
* The beltline is too low.
* The swishes are a little too exagerated
* The center of the grill has a slightly thinner profile.
* Needs headlight covers.

Then we have Danno's car:
http://f1.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/daniel.cervantes@sbcglobal.net/detail?.dir=/GEN5_CAMAROSTUFF&.dnm=GONGOS+styling+clinic+concept.jpg

Keeping in mind that there has been changes to the design since it was sent to the clinic year before last, there seems to have been a few obvious changes compared to what is being mentioned now.

* Blended mirrors (again)
* Smaller tire proportion to the body.
* The side edges of the hood/fenders has a slight bulge like the gen 1 Camaros did, and isn't rounded off like the 2nd & 4th gens.
* Bodywork is not quite as bulging
* Headlights are a bit different.

Then we have this 3rd example that seems to incorperate both:
http://www.cheersandgears.com/boards/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=13792

Input on this car is even more interesting:

* Mirrors (again)
* The wheelbase is exageratted.
* The area underneath the grille is very different (not mentioned on the other 2 pictures)
* The rear section looks very very close.
* Overall, body is very close.


Ya know, I wouldn't be surprized if you see a artist's drawing of the end result of this info in a magazine in say... July or August? ;)

I hope they can bring the car to market soon. A lot of F-body guys I talk to are considering the new Mustang or waiting for the Charger. It would be a shame to lose that much loyal GM following.

Late additions:

1. The grille has a more of a squeeze in the center (Almost as if it's a "V").

2. The headlights are a bit recessed. (sort of like the 69 RS with the hidden headlight doors opened).

We really need someone to put this all together. :)

Originally posted by guionM
Ya know, I wouldn't be surprized if you see a artist's drawing of the end result of this info in a magazine in say... July or August? ;) To meet that deadline wouldn't the drawings need to be done now? :D

I previously posted a refined version of #1 with integrated mirrors, a reworked roofline and a more raked grill. This is the first I heard of the hood/fender bulge mimicking the 1st gens. Hmmmm.

I need to put some more thought into this retro thing. I guess I could run out to my garage this weekend and use my twin 67's as inspiration. ;)

Originally posted by guionM
Late additions:

1. The grille has a more of a squeeze in the center (Almost as if it's a "V").

2. The headlights are a bit recessed. (sort of like the 69 RS with the hidden headlight doors opened).

We really need someone to put this all together. :)
Ok... now that's weird... :eek:

I did this Tuesday night before anyone said anything more...
http://home.comcast.net/~blackwoodgarcia/69camfan/GenV_rev0.jpg

Needs work, but sounds a little closer to the mark. :p

.....when the post asked what Kris Horton's concept had on the concept, most thought not much...but I gotta' tell you it seems that on nearly every message board that I saw it show up on, most loved it.

I don't think it had a direct effect, BUT you gotta' believe CHevy took notice of the response to it and the new Mustang.....and don't forget Brian Nesbitt's love of retro and whamo...we have a semi retro Camaro being bantered about.

I now some of us hate retro and it's seemingly dead-end design, but heritage cues can be a strong thing to ignore.....the Camaro is being "reborn" after all.

Good work as always Guion! :thumb:

Sounds like the car is shaping up to look very muscular. I'm a huge fan of slight bulges in the quarter panels like the first and third gens had. Makes the car look mean. Also I'm a fan of that front end on those concepts so good to hear that they look very similar. I'm not sure if this has been asked before but any chance we could see this machine (but without a name) at NAIAS 05?

How come they never incorprate the mirrors into the body?

Not to mention camarokid128's retro inspired concept that won the 5th gen design contest over at gminsidenews.com

Come to think of it, camarokid128 hasn't been around much lately.

You don't suppose.... Nah! Although.... :confused:

i like it...drop in that LS7 and watch 'em sell

Great work!

Looks very interesting--bring out the convertible and I will have to get a new daily driver!

As soon as I'm done paying off my 02' z28, I fear I will again have a car payment in the future. :D

Originally posted by jg95z28
Ok... now that's weird... :eek:

I did this Tuesday night before anyone said anything more...
http://home.comcast.net/~blackwoodgarcia/69camfan/GenV_rev0.jpg

Needs work, but sounds a little closer to the mark. :p

:eek:

I'm going to post this over at C&G and see what comes up.

As far as proportions...think overall length of the SN-95 Mustang, with a much longer wheelbase.;)

BTW, the fenders blending into the mirrors is news to me....I'm not a big fan of that.

Did someone say convertible?

http://home.comcast.net/~blackwoodgarcia/69camfan/GenV_rev0v.jpg

Keep in mind all I have to work with here at the office is MSPaint! :lol:

i can really see 2nd gen in some of those pics. put i don't know if my opinion is the right path to take or not, but i believe those who have the skill to do these drawings/models should be aggressive. i suggest try not to draw and imagine base models, but what you think a future zl1 or high end model will look like. i figure what ever you draw it will influence the guys at GM. from what i've seen they seem to be more conservative so i say spice things up. we need more 3d interaction. don't keep the traditional wheelwell (sp?) open it up to expose the tire. the odds of unconventional designs being used in a camaro might not be that great, but they are pulling this one out of the retirement hat, so who knows:)

I think this car with a LS2/6spd would be killer! I see cues from every generation except 3rd. I just finished a pen and ink makeover with changes suggested. I'll try to post it shortly.

What about T-tops though? Are those going to make it? I sure hope so, they have been a F-body trademark.

Actually I see some third gen influence in the rear deck/quarters, and front and rear bumpers. :p

Hmm, although I like every one of the links shown, I hope this car isn't named Camaro. From the 2nd gen onwards, F-bodies don't look like any vehicle on the road, I'm not exactly sure how to describe it but they're in between a hum-drum coupe and a sports car. These new designs are retro and harken back to 1st gens, which are cars that have a slightly muscular twist. In other words, not very unique looking. For example, my wife and mom always comment on how 4th/3rd gens stand out in the crowd, that it's nice to see something different from all the cookie cutter cars out there. I've asked for their opinion on the GTO/Mustang styling, they fit into the cookie cutter mold according to all of us. GM as usual will be a follower instead of a leader and give us one more boring car with a slightly muscular twist. What's wrong with standing out in the crowd?

OK, here is my redo... the scan sucks and looks real jagged but you get the idea. I think I had the scanner settings wrong (used someone's at work). I'll take it home and do a better scan if anyone is interested. Just picture this sucker with a 69 cowl type hood, 4th gen SS scoop, or 3rd gen style louvers!

http://www.wyattcon.net/images/F5Camaro2.jpg

The rumor on cheers and gears is a 4th gen style SS scoop. I actually started working on a version at home last night, but didn't finish it.

Personally I'd rather see a functional cowl induction hood like on the 69 or 80-81 Z28's. :D

I also played with a Saab inspired grill tweak that closely resembles the 69 RS nose.....

http://home.comcast.net/~blackwoodgarcia/69camfan/9xmodgrill_rev0.jpg

Aztek's stand out in a crowd! :D

Aztek's stand out in a crowd!

I think I defined in my post what type of standing out I appreciate. Calling it like it is always hurts, so I expected a cheap shot like yours. :rolleyes:

Hey, I was just joking. Does that chip on your shoulder weigh one or two tons? ;)

Originally posted by dnovotny
I think I defined in my post what type of standing out I appreciate. Calling it like it is always hurts, so I expected a cheap shot like yours. :rolleyes:

I'm with you. I likes the (early) second gens much more than the first because their styling was revolutionary, unique, and very stylish. the 3rd and 4ths I think carried on this tradition with their revolutionary styling aspects.

Originally posted by TA76
OK, here is my redo... the scan sucks and looks real jagged but you get the idea. I think I had the scanner settings wrong (used someone's at work). I'll take it home and do a better scan if anyone is interested. Just picture this sucker with a 69 cowl type hood, 4th gen SS scoop, or 3rd gen style louvers!

http://www.wyattcon.net/images/F5Camaro2.jpg

Hmm, looks like Mad Max's car. Too "retro" :p

Originally posted by guionM
http://www.wyattcon.net/images/F5Camaro.jpg
:eek::bow:

that would look awesome with a different set of wheels and a !chrome bar mod. (even though thats the first semi-good looking chrome bar ive seen)

I definetly like it :thumb:

Originally posted by Z284ever
As far as proportions...think overall length of the SN-95 Mustang, with a much longer wheelbase.;)

BTW, the fenders blending into the mirrors is news to me....I'm not a big fan of that.

I like the proportions of that :thumb: :irk: to the mirror/fenders though. That was one design cue in specific I didn't want to see return. I suppose we'll find out soon enough.

:)

Originally posted by number77
i can really see 2nd gen in some of those pics. put i don't know if my opinion is the right path to take or not, but i believe those who have the skill to do these drawings/models should be aggressive. i suggest try not to draw and imagine base models, but what you think a future zl1 or high end model will look like. i figure what ever you draw it will influence the guys at GM. from what i've seen they seem to be more conservative so i say spice things up. we need more 3d interaction. don't keep the traditional wheelwell (sp?) open it up to expose the tire. the odds of unconventional designs being used in a camaro might not be that great, but they are pulling this one out of the retirement hat, so who knows:)

Not sure if you understand this, but the design of the car is for all intents & purposes is done!

Expecting someone to "aggressively" draw up a car at this point with the expectation that GM is going to incorperate it in their production car is pretty naive. Also, drawing up some imaginary high end model if you don't even take time to get the basic look of the actual car first should be done on another thread after we get to the actual look of the car. :lol:

To be honest, with us being so close to what the actual Camaro replacement is going to look like I couldn't give a penny's worth of intrest in yet another concept or whatever bizzare or occasionally halfway decent attempt at someone drawing their version of whatever model (hopefully we are aware that an individual's version has nothing to do with what Chevrolet is actually going to produce, however good it is).


I'm not trying to dump cold water on anyone here, but I think we all have gotten so used to directing whoever draws a Camaro (since we aren't directly asked input by GM) we are assuming that these drawings are actually going to take a life of their own. Now when we are actually getting insight to what a 5th gen will look like, instead of trying to get it right, we are still directing when directing isn't needed (unless you have also seen the car).

To reinterate, This thread is NOT about what YOU think the 5th gen should look like, it's about what the 5th gen does look like. :no:

Now.... if we can get some of you talented artists to take all this and come up with a drawing for our guidance counselors to guide us on.... ;)

what! i had no idea the designed phase was completed. i didn't even know it started. man i really hope this isn't going to be a let down. *sigh* theres always the blue devil to look foward to. and what happened to GM swearing off retro styling? i hope it looks strong, and not end up like the malibu:(
what are the chances of me seeing a mule in north houston?

A little cold water now and then is a good thing. It'll stun the growth of those 'bad seeds'.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, even if some people don't like it. The new "CAR" will be more Mustang like than some here will want. Even I dare say too "retro" for some. However, like most loyal enthusiasts, you'll get past your dislikes and praise it as the best Camaro ever built. Even the Retro-Nazis will come around, I guarantee it. Whether you like it or not, Camaro has to compete with Mustang, not the other way around. That said, kudos to GM, I mostly like it so far. Can't wait to actually see some spy shots. Soon you'll be going through the beginning stages of love/hate that I saw at the Mustang sites before the 2005 came out. Over there it's 99.9% love now. I also think this car will be like the Mustang in that it looks much, much better in person than in pictures.

GuionM, did you take a look at my hack job? Is it closer than Chrispey's original?

evok said crispey's nose is closer... but then chazman added it needed two h.i.d.s the same size and an angrier look. Sounds to me like he was describing what Danno saw.

Now evok has posted he doesn't know the details.

I think the only guys that really know at this point work for GM... and they ain't talkin'... yet. :D

To reinterate, This thread is NOT about what YOU think the 5th gen should look like, it's about what the 5th gen does look like.

Exactly why I posted my criticism of the styling direction. I suspected that all this "no to retro" talk was a lot of bull and unfortunately that's the case. An evolutionary car normally starts off from the last iteration and maybe pulls in some influence from previous generations. However, retro takes as its starting point a 35+ year old car and applies some modernity to it. Voila, we end up with the '05 Mustang and the "Camaro" renditions posted.

Originally posted by jg95z28
evok said crispey's nose is closer... but then chazman added it needed two h.i.d.s the same size and an angrier look. Sounds to me like he was describing what Danno saw.



Hey...jg....

Go with what Chazman says, he is a very smart guy!;) :D

Originally posted by PaperTarget
I've said it before and I'll say it again, even if some people don't like it. The new "CAR" will be more Mustang like than some here will want. Even I dare say too "retro" for some. However, like most loyal enthusiasts, you'll get past your dislikes and praise it as the best Camaro ever built. Even the Retro-Nazis will come around, I guarantee it. Whether you like it or not, Camaro has to compete with Mustang, not the other way around. That said, kudos to GM, I mostly like it so far. Can't wait to actually see some spy shots. Soon you'll be going through the beginning stages of love/hate that I saw at the Mustang sites before the 2005 came out. Over there it's 99.9% love now. I also think this car will be like the Mustang in that it looks much, much better in person than in pictures.

How exactly do you know what the new car 'will be'? If I don't like the new car when it comes out there's a very good chance my 'Camaro club card' will not be renewed. I'm a loyal enthusiast because I like every iteneration of the car so far.

What do you mean by 'it has to compete with the Mustang'? It always has? But it's equally important to GM to attract new buyers to the car, not just the present faithful.

If the new 'CAR' isn't as retro as you like...will you 'get over it'?

Originally posted by dnovotny
An evolutionary car normally starts off from the last iteration and maybe pulls in some influence from previous generations.I believe that's what it does. I don't think anyone is taking a first gen Camaro and modernizing it. I happen to be in the middle of restoring a 67 Camaro and to be honest I see more 4th gen in the sketch than 1st gen. Its just the nose and skirts that's giving it a retro feel.

Plus keep in mind... there were distinct transformations between each of the previous generations. Gen I was squarer and boxier than the smoothed out and swoopier Gen II. Gen III was boxier than Gen II and went to quad headlamps. Gen IV was a smoother and swoopier version of Gen III with styling cues from Gen II and Gen I (yes, the 93-97 standard hood "slots" mimicked those on the 67-69 standard hood). All indications are that since the last generation was smoother and swoopier, Gen V will get a little boxier. However to say its simply a modern version of the first generation Camaro is not 100% accurate. If it looks anything like what we're guessing, it won't be as much of a bastardized remake like the '05 Mustang is. :D

That's my opinion as well. I think I may have inavdertently (but unapologetically) polorized a few folks with my harsh anti-retro stance, especially towards the Mustang.

Being a designer styling is one aspect of design I am very passionate about. If that skecth is close to the final car, I'm anxious to see it with the additions mentioned at the beginning of the thread (hmmm...gonna be tocold to ride this weekend, perhaps i'll dist of the pens at home.....).

Originally posted by Z284ever
Hey...jg....

Go with what Chazman says, he is a very smart guy!;) :D That's why I reworked crispey's car as above after considering Danno's car.

I actually have three versions going right now...

http://home.comcast.net/~blackwoodgarcia/69camfan/GenV_rev1.jpg
Type A - The above version has single headlamps, more raked nose, 4th gen fenders and more of a 68 roofline. (as suggested by evok).

http://home.comcast.net/~blackwoodgarcia/69camfan/GenV_rev0.jpg
Type B - The above version was reworked to be closer to Danno's nose.

The third version is a reworked version of Type A with a slightly different grill and a 4th gen SS hood scoop added.

It sounds like I need to rework Type B more towards Danno's nose and add the SS hood scoop.

;)

Originally posted by number77
what! i had no idea the designed phase was completed. i didn't even know it started. man i really hope this isn't going to be a let down. *sigh* theres always the blue devil to look foward to. and what happened to GM swearing off retro styling? i hope it looks strong, and not end up like the malibu:(
what are the chances of me seeing a mule in north houston?

No worries. Car design is usually locked in pretty early in the process. GM-Holden (which moves extremely quick in producing new models) presented it's Zeta cars, including the next Monaro/GTO and an El Camino proposal to Bob Lutz, Ed Welburn, and company last month. Those cars won't be out for almost another 2 years. Also, GM design studio is working on 2008-2009 already.

The "Blue Devil" is going to be VERY expensive, and isn't exactly going to be a high production car, assuming it's produced. I don't consider the design theme that's coming out "retro" at all. It has heritage cues, but calling it retro is like calling the new C6 Corvette "retro".

I still am wondering why you are concerned about it looking like a Malibu? :confused:

As far as GM swearing off retro styling, I guess you haven't seen the 2005 HHR that's going to be on display at New York's Auto show in a few weeks & is going to be produced before years end? :lol:

As for seeing a Camaro mule, don't expect it. GM is getting away from producing alot mules, and the ones they do produce seem not to come out till right before their Auto Show debut (see: C6 Corvette, Colbalt, LaCrosse, & HHR), rendering pictures of mules on the road useless to magazines (which need at least a coupe of months lead time).

The Type B that you just posted and the Congos concept do look evolutionary, so I'm starting to breathe easier. The other drawings proportions/styling scream to me retro 1st gen, particularly the front-end and higher beltline.

Originally posted by TA76
GuionM, did you take a look at my hack job? Is it closer than Chrispey's original?

I'm the second party in all this.

I'm going by what people who actually saw the car say, so I'm probabally not the person to ask.

I'm just taking all the similarities and putting it together. ;)





To all else, remember, we are going by hints, and imput by others, which means we aren't going to get the car exact, and that's not my purpose. The purpose is to get a good feel for what we're in for in the near future, without costing anyone their job or access.

Someone virtually got the front end of the car using descriptions. We have someone who saw the body enough to do a good photoshop of what he saw. We have at least 2 other people giving comments.

It's going to be a very good representation, but hold the fire till it actually hits the streets. We already know photos don't do some cars justice. I think drawings based from sources should be taken with even greater reserve. :)

Originally posted by dnovotny
The Type B that you just posted and the Congos concept do look evolutionary, so I'm starting to breathe easier. The other drawings proportions/styling scream to me retro 1st gen, particularly the front-end and higher beltline.

Me too.

Not liking the direction it's going in exactly. Especially the mirrors, open grill, lack of wrap around taillights, and too upright.

Originally posted by guionM
No worries. Car design is usually locked in pretty early in the process. GM-Holden (which moves extremely quick in producing new models) presented it's Zeta cars, including the next Monaro/GTO and an El Camino proposal to Bob Lutz, Ed Welburn, and company last month. Those cars won't be out for almost another 2 years. Also, GM design studio is working on 2008-2009 already.

The "Blue Devil" is going to be VERY expensive, and isn't exactly going to be a high production car, assuming it's produced. I don't consider the design theme that's coming out "retro" at all. It has heritage cues, but calling it retro is like calling the new C6 Corvette "retro".

I still am wondering why you are concerned about it looking like a Malibu? :confused:

As far as GM swearing off retro styling, I guess you haven't seen the 2005 HHR that's going to be on display at New York's Auto show in a few weeks & is going to be produced before years end? :lol:

As for seeing a Camaro mule, don't expect it. GM is getting away from producing alot mules, and the ones they do produce seem not to come out till right before their Auto Show debut (see: C6 Corvette, Colbalt, LaCrosse, & HHR), rendering pictures of mules on the road useless to magazines (which need at least a coupe of months lead time).
thanks for the much need assurance. if you say its gonna look good (from what you know) i'm betting it will be. what i was saying is that back in the day malibu was a good name for a car, now when i hear about the modern malibu...well i would rather be thinking about barbies malibu dream house. oh well for the mules, GM probably has some secret underground test track or someting by now anyways. i just hope the car has muscle, like a real camaro, as i hope the vette keeps its finess (sp?):) ;)

Originally posted by dream '94 Z28
How exactly do you know what the new car 'will be'? If I don't like the new car when it comes out there's a very good chance my 'Camaro club card' will not be renewed. I'm a loyal enthusiast because I like every iteneration of the car so far.

Don't know anymore exactly than most others on here, but from what I've read and seen, I've got a pretty good idea. Loyalty demands you buy when it's something you like or don't like. Kinda like marriage but you don't divorce if you don't like her snoring.

Originally posted by dream '94 Z28
What do you mean by 'it has to compete with the Mustang'? It always has? But it's equally important to GM to attract new buyers to the car, not just the present faithful.

Competition isn't just about HP and TQ. It's about sales figures and customer base. Some people just don't get it. If a car that was very similar to the 3rd or 4th gen came out and was going to compete in sales with the new Mustang, I think it would be a dismal failure. From what I see in these posts, I think this car would be able to compete much better.

Originally posted by dream '94 Z28
If the new 'CAR' isn't as retro as you like...will you 'get over it'?

Retro, "retro" or non-retro, doesn't bother me a bit. If it looks good, who cares. :D

Originally posted by dream '94 Z28
That's my opinion as well. I think I may have inavdertently (but unapologetically) polorized a few folks with my harsh anti-retro stance, especially towards the Mustang.

Nah, no polorization here :) I just think the retro arguement has a weak base. JMHO. If you decide to do some drawing on this car, please post it, love to see it.

If it's retro I will find another car company that produces cars that I like and want. I refuse to buy a totally retro car.

It would be nice to see GM, LEAD instead of follow.
And this whole nothing can come close to stepping on the Corvette's toes is BS.

http://home.comcast.net/~blackwoodgarcia/69camfan/GenV_rev0.jpg

I think that this drawing is just plain BAD***. I have shown it to a lot of my coworkers and friends that are in my age group (27) if GM wants to target this age group, all of who I have talked to absolutely love the way these drawings are heading.

I love it!All the other renditions in the other links look great too, though in PlumCrazy's version I'd like to see more of a trunk and not such a long roofline.:bow:

Retro has a strong arguement against it, it turns people away. A car design taken from 1st Gens will be a design from more than 35 years ago. IMO if a car more like the Thirds came out but had improved useable space and design, it would do just fine if not better than an upright, "less sporty" Camaro. Just watch, an upright 1st Gen-like car will come out and people will look back on what the Camaro was after the 60's and want it to go back to what it became. (stand-out looks, low, wide, sporty, exotic-like, different than the M*stang in more ways) Same thing happened after the first 3 years. Think about it.

I don't know,with those designs there's more of a chance to evolve than any other retro designs(that I've seen so far)without it staying retro in next generations to come.

Originally posted by jg95z28
That's why I reworked crispey's car as above after considering Danno's car.

I actually have three versions going right now...

http://home.comcast.net/~blackwoodgarcia/69camfan/GenV_rev1.jpg
Type A - The above version has single headlamps, more raked nose, 4th gen fenders and more of a 68 roofline. (as suggested by evok).

http://home.comcast.net/~blackwoodgarcia/69camfan/GenV_rev0.jpg
Type B - The above version was reworked to be closer to Danno's nose.

The third version is a reworked version of Type A with a slightly different grill and a 4th gen SS hood scoop added.

It sounds like I need to rework Type B more towards Danno's nose and add the SS hood scoop.

;) :eek: That looks awesome. If that was the next camaro, I'd buy it in a second. Nice work.:bow:

Originally posted by 91Zman
I don't know,with those designs there's more of a chance to evolve than any other retro designs(that I've seen so far)without it staying retro in next generations to come.

How? It looks exactly like a 1st Gen! That's the admitted direction!

Just wait until this gets on the M*stang boards that the Camaro is now going in a direction like the new M*stang, no matter which company had the idea first. No retro for the Camaro GM, come on!

the mustang wasn't the first car to go retro... so don't say that if the camaro were to go retro, it would be following the mustang's footsteps :no:

i don't think it really looks retro... i think it looks kinda cool

atleast the camaro doesnt look like a t-bird :eek: that car is UGLY, lol

Originally posted by IZ28
How? It looks exactly like a 1st Gen! That's the admitted direction!


What I meant was that even though it does look somewhat retro it has a better means to evolve than the other retro 5thgen renderings that I've seen so far.

Explain. :)

Huh? Explain what? Please explain:p

;)

Explain what you mean. :) The way I see it right now they can make it look like each year of the 1st Gen but that's about it, I don't know how it could look like anything different as is so far.

Originally posted by JoeliusZ28
:eek::bow:

that would look awesome with a different set of wheels and a !chrome bar mod. (even though thats the first semi-good looking chrome bar ive seen)

I definetly like it :thumb:


Looks like just a 1st gen and second gen combination. I hardly see any 4th and no 3rd gen in it whatsoever, but thats me.

---That was in reference to this link that the quote didnt pick up

http://www.wyattcon.net/images/F5Camaro.jpg

Originally posted by IZ28
;)

Explain what you mean. :) The way I see it right now they can make it look like each year of the 1st Gen but that's about it, I don't know how it could look like anything different as is so far.
Well if you look at the car(guionm's 1st link) from a anti-retro person's point of view,all they are going to think is that"So what they are just going to do,a retro 1st-4th gen fbodies for each new gen?".You would think that,but if you have any kind of vision or an artistic eye you can see where this "retroed" 5thgen is probably going in the future designs,though I couldn't say for sure where or care to"explain".It wouldn't take much to alter the front end or what ever else to be no longer retro for the next gen...and this is hardly a carbon copy of a 1stgen anyway..http://www.wyattcon.net/images/F5Camaro.jpg..ehh,some people will like it others won't :cool:

Personally I think it looks great now show me the powertrain and the price tag.

Well if it is as retro as it seems it will be at least I wont have to worry about new car payment on a Camaro :( When is the new Trans Am comming out... :( God damnit we waited 5 years for **** we coulda had 35 years ago.

I am a bit dissapointed if the styling is going to be like those drawings. It's too retro for my taste. I really wanted a nice progressive, modern Camaro but the way the info looks in this thread, it might not be modern. The info from a few months ago indicated that reto was pretty out of the question, i wonder what has changed. Did the Mustang concept have anything to do with this.................? I hope not.
I am still hopeing that some of the info might be a little distorted or that when we see the final design, it will not have such a retro feel. It is still way too early for me to rule anything out but maybe a used Vette will be in my future.

This relates to that earlier thread about it feeling like 1969. I guess it is true, it will feel like 1969, literally.

Originally posted by SNEAKY NEIL

This relates to that earlier thread about it feeling like 1969. I guess it is true, it will feel like 1969, literally.


I know! Isn't it great?!:thumb:

Originally posted by hp_nut
I know! Isn't it great?!:thumb:

False.

Hooray! A polarizing design for the Camaro. I'm happy it's coming back, and I can't say I won't buy one yet. But I do hope that "the front end of a '69 with the back of a '72 and the mirrors of a 2002" isn't all that will define this car.

My vote.

http://us.f1f.yahoofs.com/bc/5d5d0940/bc/My+Photo+Album/convo.jpg?bfwxPXABbGnOA3yF

Frank

That's one of the better PS's of the concept that I've seen. Still not crazy about it though.

One thing that i will say is that i definately dont like the idea of or want a retro Camaro. Retro, to me, is kind of like saying "We ran out of ideas on what to do, so we will re do something from the past." I dont mind the back at all (crispey's needs to be a little cleaned up, but all in all the idea is fine with me) but i really dont want the front to be 1st gen inspired. I want it to be something new. I still want to have the excitement of seeing a first gen, and i feel if a fifth gen is retro, with a first gen front, it may detract from that. I was also hoping GM wouldnt follow the way that ford went with the mustang. Too me, they look way too similar.

Also, pardon my ignorance, but i really do not understand why the design cannot be changed. If it is a 2008 MY car, i dont see why they cant just change the front clip before they even make a show car. Even if they are building one right now, i still think it can be changed in that amount of time.

Will I buy a fifth gen? I dont know, right now im leaning to an unfortunate no because of the retro design.

I'm just glad there is a car somewhere that is at least mocked up and being worked on. I'm sure it's gonna be an awesome car.

Do you remember when we first saw drawings of the C6? Alot of people were going off saying it was ugly and that the Corvette line was doomed. Then we saw a few spy photos and it changed a little. Then we saw the pic of the car on the trailer (the one from the American Revolution commercial) and it changed more. Then we saw the actual commercial, and it changed even more. Then we saw the actual car at the car show, and most everone is hailing the C6 as the best car ever!!

My point is, we have all been patient (well most of us) this long about the next Camaro, let's not damn it already. When we see some better drawing, some spy photos and then an actual car, I'm sure that most will love it.

Originally posted by Chuck!
Well if it is as retro as it seems it will be at least I wont have to worry about new car payment on a Camaro :( When is the new Trans Am comming out... :( God damnit we waited 5 years for **** we coulda had 35 years ago.

Word.

Has the automotive world forgotten how to design a car?

The way I have understood the styling choices has been that its a modern design with heavy cues from previous models. I dont think I would be a big fan of retro either, but I am liking whats been said.

You would have to be crazy to damn this car for being retro before you see what it really looks like. I, for one, wont make my mind up until I see sheetmetal.

Originally posted by L.A. Z
You would have to be crazy to damn this car for being retro before you see what it really looks like. I, for one, wont make my mind up until I see sheetmetal.

Agreed.

Even if they do decide to go with a retro design, they might do it right. Like Ford did with the Mustang. Camaro has a great heritage, if it looks anything like a previous generation then it will look great :usa:

Originally posted by Sixer-Bird

Has the automotive world forgotten how to design a car?

I've always been function before form (and seemingly in a vast minority :( ) Since this thread is explicitly on styling I guess I'll have to throw that out the window.

I'll have to see what's underneath before making any judgements. If the hardware is there it might be worth enduring the poor styling.... retro is so disapointing, I'd rather see simple/funtional (aka GTO) than retro. If I can't have sporty give me "elegant" before old.... but should Camaro be anything BUT sporty??? I'm not excited about the new Mustang so I was hoping GM would spark something in me instead of following that horse out to pasture.... especially with no more Firebird to balance the more conservative Camaro.

These days it's hard to be passionate about automotive styling :cry: It truly seems that styling has become the #1 selling point for cars. Look at the GTO threads (I don't care if it's dual exhaust, it comes out on one side :lol: ) Possibly because people don't know anything else automotive? Have we all become "ricers"? What's the fascination with the "old days"? Elvis is dead, leave him be :p :D

Bottom line: If the exterior styling is transparent I can look past it, if it's gimmicky that's hard to do.

Originally posted by L.A. Z
You would have to be crazy to damn this car for being retro before you see what it really looks like. I, for one, wont make my mind up until I see sheetmetal.

I counted up all the retro cars I'd buy and I came up with zero. The only one I think looks average is the SSR, and the PT Crusier, Beetle, Thunderbird and 05 Mustang all look like junk to me.

We've put too much time/energy into a car we didnt know existed until a few months back to totally dismiss it, but based off my opinion of the current retro cars, this is going to have to re-define retro (possible?) for it to make me say "Damn, I have to have that car."

to everybody that dislikes this "retro" thing: Do you REALLY think that this will be the ONLY GM car on this platform? GM makes money by putting multiple designs on the same platform.


Examples:
1. The freaking Corvette had it's own platform that it didn't share with ANY other vehicles for 50 years. Then the Caddy XLR came out. They put in an engine design that's 10 years old, "spiffied" it up a bit, then put a price tag on it that is 50% more than the Vette.

2. When the Solstice was introduced, GM kept insisting that it wouldn't share a platform with any other vehicle. Now we have 2 other vehicles on the same platform being shown.

3. Look at what has come from the I think it's called GM360? small-midsize truck platform. First, Trailblazer & Envoy, then the extended versions, then the SSR. I think the Colorado is a shrunk down version, but I'm not sure.

so basically, if you want a toned down one, wait for the Buick model :D

Hey, first post here, and I saw this posted in another board.

As a GM loyalist, muscle car enthusiast, and camaro fan and owner since I was 3 yrs old, I am very disappointed. Not only does it seem that the Camaro will be retro-esque, but that it doesnt look good, or sound like it would look good. IMO if you are gunna go retro, go for the gusto and go with Kris Hortons design. At least its very sweet looking.
As for retro, I dont agree with the whole idea at all. 35 years GM has been designing Camaros and out of thoes 35 years they havent looked back once. Same can be said for the Mustang, but they were getting very retro-influenced with the present generation mustang with cars like the Bullit, Mach 1, and other minor things like prancing pony decals and all that. Its only a matter of time before they make a Mustang II!!
But back to the Camaro. I dont like retro cars as they have yet to prove themselves for a long period of time to sell at sustained levels that the company wants. Perhaps the mustang will change that, but that has yet to be shown. Retro cars always get tons of ooos and ahhhs at car shows, but after you see tons of them(i.e. PT Cruser, Beetle) all over the streets, It looses its cool. Think about how many Mustangs you see now! That retro look is gunna get very old. Not to mention that 17 year old girls dont like "old" looking cars and lets face it, the Mustangs V6 owners are by and large female.
I think GM could have done way better. They have shown some seriously sweet designs with the C6, XLR, CTS, Solstice, G6, and even the Cobalt. I have also seen the Buick Coupe that is supposedly going to be sharing bunk beds with the Camaro. Now thats a sharp looking car. Deffinatly not a buick, but deffinatly a buick all at the same time.
GM could have done better with the design. I can only hope that Lutz has yet to dip his hands into the car. Maybe he can smudge out some of the more stronger retro cues.

I too think it's waaaaayy to damned early for people to be taking sides on the styling of the Camaro.......hell, we're just arm-chair quarterbacking here anyway.

My suspicions are that people are reacting to the possibility of a larger grille with the headlights inside (1st gen ish) as opposed to the 2nd-4th gen with them outside it.......but this is the one thing even Red hinted that we are not right about....so chill a little.

My thoughts are that most peole confuse Retro with what is called Heritage Styling cues.....how the hell are you going to be able to tell it's a Camaro (this is REQUIRED) if it doesn't have certian Camaro trademark styling?!?:confused: :alert:

Personally I love the fact that it is even being hinted (again, no confirmation) that it'll have the fender sweeps (ala 1969)......the Camaro has been long too devoid of any real character on it's sides....certianlly doesn't make it Retro but does use it's Heritage.

It seems as though we'll get back to having some form of a "coke-bottle" shape to it's midsection......again, this is a good Camaro heritage styling cue.....it make the car much more muscular looking than a straight beltline. Good tumble home and strong shoulders....ah yes, Camaro Heritage traits again....

I look forward to it having a trunk again...half the Camaro's Heritage had one....stronger structure, better security for your stuff and less work for the airconditioning...

It seems as though it'll have a better hood design.....scoops or cowl induction...either way, it says Camaro and is in it's Heritage to have it.....that and we'l obviously get a spoiler too. :D

See the pattern?

To me Retro is a complete remake of a certian model......ala the T-bird......to use Heritage Styling Cues is keeping the car's DNA alive.

Who'd want a car that we couldn't even tell it was a Camaro?!? :confused: :mad:

Heritage Styling Cues are a requirement to be able to recognize the car as a Camaro......but it doesn't mean it'll be Retro ...not by a long shot. :cool: :D :bow:

I understand that, but its sounding more and more like they have crossed the line of heritage, and have now entered retro. Hertiage is fine with me, but have it as an evolving heritage. Perfect example is headlights. They were your standard round sealed beems for the first gen, and continued thoughout the 2nd gen. Third gen came around and they were square, and there were 2 of them, including 2 parking lights. Then fog lights were added in the grill area. 4th gens kept the 4 square headlights, and 2 fogs in the grill. the 98 fbodies went to a solid plastic headlight with 2 bulbs per headlight unit and fog lights were put under the headlights. Evolution of a hertiage item.
Look at the nose of the Camaro which is what is argued now. At first it was the standard large grill up front with headlights in the grill. 2nd gens had headlighs mounted to the left and right of the smaller grill. Third gens moved the grill lower and made it smaller while moving the headlights to the corner pockets. 4th gens started out the same way with a smaller grill, and the headlights in pockets. 4.2's got a new updated nose with larger headlights and larger grill.
Rear section went from usual trunk to hatch.
Windshield rake keeps getting flatter and flatter.
Heritage is fine with me, but basicly making a modern first gen, thats retro, and thats what I am seeing and hearing now. That is what has me upset. All the Camaros have some form of heritage in them... its when they take on massive hertiage from one car or one generation of car... then its retro.

How about they replace the "Retro" front clip so it looks like a Chrysler, like on the 98-02 Camaro? :think:

Retro or not, the important factor for me is that the car looks GOOD. There aren't any GM cars out right now where I look at and think "Man, they got all the details right ." There are several that come close (the C6 is an example - it looks pretty good but a few proportions aren't perfect and the interior, though improved, still looks only okay.)

Originally posted by Doug Harden
I too think it's waaaaayy to damned early for people to be taking sides on the styling of the Camaro.......hell, we're just arm-chair quarterbacking here anyway.

I'm just going by what's been shown in this thread. Supposedly some of these concept drawings closely resemble what's on the drawing board.

Granted, it's been a while since I've had my eyes checked but last time I did it was 20/20. Every single pic I've looked at is dreadfully retro, I haven't seen anything progressive... not even close!

Corvette has done a good job with the evolution theme, I was hoping Camaro would follow.

Originally posted by PaperTarget
Loyalty demands you buy when it's something you like or don't like.

No offense,but that's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. What you're speaking of blind loyalty. This is what usually leads to mass suicides in those wacko comet chasing religious cults.

If a company does not make anything you like there is absolutely no reason you should buy it. Just becuase I grew up a GM fan does not bind me to buying a Malibu or G6 when/if I like a Mazda 6 better.

You are speaking of a company's wet dream. A customer base that will buy it's products no matter how crappy they are and inferior to the comptition. That is the mentality that cost Detroit market share in the '70s and '80s.

Now, getting back to the retro vs. non-retro arguement....hasn't a few folks here with very good inside info stated a few time the next car would not be retro?

Originally posted by WERM
How about they replace the "Retro" front clip so it looks like a Chrysler, like on the 98-02 Camaro? :think:

Retro or not, the important factor for me is that the car looks GOOD. There aren't any GM cars out right now where I look at and think "Man, they got all the details right ." There are several that come close (the C6 is an example - it looks pretty good but a few proportions aren't perfect and the interior, though improved, still looks only okay.)

No, I belive you missed the point. Im sure they could come up with something better then the sebrings...I mean camaros of last gen.

If it looks good now, who says people will still think it looks good 3-4 years from its release when the fanfare and press release is over and the excitment of a new camaro is gone. Will it still look good? Many people said that the PT Cruser looked awesome and when it first came out there was a 6 month waiting list. Now that the style has had some time to soak in, There are less and less fans of the car. DCX keeps adding models to spice up the line up and bring some more people to the car, but its no where near the first PT crusers. Now, when in 3-4 years and the camaro is selling around 60k units a year, half of what GM wants it to sell... will GM kill the Camaro again? I cant see the Camaro die 2 times.

Originally posted by Doug Harden
I too think it's waaaaayy to damned early for people to be taking sides on the styling of the Camaro.......hell, we're just arm-chair quarterbacking here anyway.

My suspicions are that people are reacting to the possibility of a larger grille with the headlights inside (1st gen ish) as opposed to the 2nd-4th gen with them outside it.......but this is the one thing even Red hinted that we are not right about....so chill a little.

My thoughts are that most peole confuse Retro with what is called Heritage Styling cues.....how the hell are you going to be able to tell it's a Camaro (this is REQUIRED) if it doesn't have certian Camaro trademark styling?!?:confused: :alert:

Personally I love the fact that it is even being hinted (again, no confirmation) that it'll have the fender sweeps (ala 1969)......the Camaro has been long too devoid of any real character on it's sides....certianlly doesn't make it Retro but does use it's Heritage.

It seems as though we'll get back to having some form of a "coke-bottle" shape to it's midsection......again, this is a good Camaro heritage styling cue.....it make the car much more muscular looking than a straight beltline. Good tumble home and strong shoulders....ah yes, Camaro Heritage traits again....

I look forward to it having a trunk again...half the Camaro's Heritage had one....stronger structure, better security for your stuff and less work for the airconditioning...

It seems as though it'll have a better hood design.....scoops or cowl induction...either way, it says Camaro and is in it's Heritage to have it.....that and we'l obviously get a spoiler too. :D

See the pattern?

To me Retro is a complete remake of a certian model......ala the T-bird......to use Heritage Styling Cues is keeping the car's DNA alive.

Who'd want a car that we couldn't even tell it was a Camaro?!? :confused: :mad:

Heritage Styling Cues are a requirement to be able to recognize the car as a Camaro......but it doesn't mean it'll be Retro ...not by a long shot. :cool: :D :bow:

Very good post :bow:

I think we all need to chill a little here. All we've seen is drawings, thats it! I'm with Doug, I love my fourth gen, but the sides look plain as hell. I'm all for going back to the coke bottle shape with some bulging in the fenders. To me that says pony car, the 4th gen says sport touring car.

Also if I recall, its been stated numerous times by credible sources that the Camaro is NOT going retro like the Mustang did. Its gonna have quite a few heritage cues on it apparently but so what? It has to have them! It needs to be identifiable as a CAMARO without seeing the badge up close. We've waited this long and endured this long, lets at least give GM and our favorite car a chance without jumping ship and jumping the gun over a couple of sketches. :)

I’ve never been a huge fan of retro, but I can’t help but like this design.
http://www.wyattcon.net/images/F5Camaro.jpg

I also Loved Kris H’s drawing back in Hot Rod even though it defined “Retro”

I do see what your saying Mr. Harden. Maybe it’s why I like this look. “The Heritage Cues” I still feel like its borderline retro though. Yet this car would stand out rolling down the road and I like that.

Right now we just see a direction of the car. I’m going to wait to see sheet metal in person before I make my final judgment. Good to see they have taken so many styling cue from past Camaro’s for a car that might not be called Camaro.

But honestly if the interior goes modern, we get a healthy LS2, 6 speed, orange paint and a drop top I will probably buy one of these towards the end of the decade. The car has to be called Camaro though.

I also want to reiterate how I’d like to see a modern looking/feeling interior even if the body of the car relies heavily on 1st and 2nd gen retro styling. I like the new Mustangs body styling. I didn’t like it at first, but the more I’ve seen it, the more I like it. However I still hate the retro gauges and interior of the new Stang. Looks just like my 65 interior at home. That bugs me.

I don’t see T-tops being worked into this design which sort of sucks. I don’t even see a true Targa being worked into this. Maybe they will have a sun roof option. They just better have a convertible. That’s what I want.

I’m going to wait and make my final call when I actually see the car. Right now I’m feeling good about the look. Just my two cents.

If it wasnt for the front grill, It wouldnt look so damn retro.

http://www.wyattcon.net/images/F5Camaro.jpg

that grill just looks way too first gen. round it off more and put some new healights on it or something. Also, tone down the rear 1/4 pannel to more of a slow arch. That screams first gen. The greehouse is a lot better and not so first gen as other designs.
And that front end just reminds me of the 05 Mustang. Its just got that bulgy looking front end.

Have you seen crispy's latest?

http://www.hardenmotorsports.com/images/5th%20gen%20concept.jpg

Try to imagine the profile of a G35 with these styling ques.......hhhhmmmmm

I still think the grille is the thing the anti-retro people are reacting to....probably for good reason. I don't want it too blocky either, but this is just a sketch by an enthusiast......it's fun to see something though, ain't it? ;) :p :D

Personally, I could give a crap if it is retro. Bottom line to me is if it looks and performs good, I'll buy it. And that last picture looks freaking awesome. :bow:

http://www.hardenmotorsports.com/images/5th%20gen%20concept.jpg

dude! :metal:

Originally posted by Doug Harden
Have you seen crispy's latest?

http://www.hardenmotorsports.com/images/5th%20gen%20concept.jpg

Try to imagine the profile of a G35 with these styling ques.......hhhhmmmmm

I still think the grille is the thing the anti-retro people are reacting to....probably for good reason. I don't want it too blocky either, but this is just a sketch by an enthusiast......it's fun to see something though, ain't it? ;) :p :D

Hood looks cool, but I'm not enjoying those side mirrors.

I think I like the hardenmotorsports one best. I know it looks very retro but it is also the most practical looking of them all. The muscular look is good. It has a more European profile than the 1st gen had. I think the front grille needs to be a little smaller (ie thinner).

Overall I agree with the criticism that it doesn't look "unique" the way the 3rd and 4th gens did. But we have to remember that this car has to sell in a 6 cyl. version in volume and you can't get the mass market with the more radical designs.

The profile of the sharply rounded roof apex actually reminds me of the new 350Z. Trying to smooth it out a bit might be a good idea.

Looks good overall. I'd buy it with an SS package. I hope we see it in '06-'07 before I buy a Charger or a Mustang.:D

Originally posted by dj haf
dude! :metal:
ditto :bow:

The rear of the roofline still needs work. :D

The front is terrible and the blended mirror takes away from the car. Hood if too flat and high. The 69 fender lines go down too much. I do think another Camaro should have those lines, but I like the regualr flares better. IMO you don't need designs on the side as the Camaro barely ever had any and looked great without them.

Originally posted by Doug Harden
Have you seen crispy's latest?

http://www.hardenmotorsports.com/images/5th%20gen%20concept.jpg

Try to imagine the profile of a G35 with these styling ques.......hhhhmmmmm

I still think the grille is the thing the anti-retro people are reacting to....probably for good reason. I don't want it too blocky either, but this is just a sketch by an enthusiast......it's fun to see something though, ain't it? ;) :p :D

The italisized part is the reason i dont like it as much. I dont really mind the rest of it.
The second one does look a bit better to me, but still the grille is just the biggest turn off to me, atleast how i stand right now. The mirrors look a bit forced to me, though.

Keep in mind guys... he's basing it of reported insider information. ;)

Originally posted by Doug Harden
Have you seen crispy's latest?

http://www.hardenmotorsports.com/images/5th%20gen%20concept.jpg

Try to imagine the profile of a G35 with these styling ques.......hhhhmmmmm

I still think the grille is the thing the anti-retro people are reacting to....probably for good reason. I don't want it too blocky either, but this is just a sketch by an enthusiast......it's fun to see something though, ain't it? ;) :p :D

I dont know what he did betweent he 2, but that one looks better...except for that damn nose. The nose needs to be more modern.

I too like the 2nd harden one, except for the rear roofline.

As far as the nose goes, i like the a more "tilted back" design, if it's straight up and down it's gonna look too "retro" and not fit with the 4th-gen-like windshield.

I like the mirrors

Originally posted by Doug Harden
I too think it's waaaaayy to damned early for people to be taking sides on the styling of the Camaro.......hell, we're just arm-chair quarterbacking here anyway.

My suspicions are that people are reacting to the possibility of a larger grille with the headlights inside (1st gen ish) as opposed to the 2nd-4th gen with them outside it.......but this is the one thing even Red hinted that we are not right about....so chill a little.

My thoughts are that most peole confuse Retro with what is called Heritage Styling cues.....how the hell are you going to be able to tell it's a Camaro (this is REQUIRED) if it doesn't have certian Camaro trademark styling?!?:confused: :alert:

Personally I love the fact that it is even being hinted (again, no confirmation) that it'll have the fender sweeps (ala 1969)......the Camaro has been long too devoid of any real character on it's sides....certianlly doesn't make it Retro but does use it's Heritage.

It seems as though we'll get back to having some form of a "coke-bottle" shape to it's midsection......again, this is a good Camaro heritage styling cue.....it make the car much more muscular looking than a straight beltline. Good tumble home and strong shoulders....ah yes, Camaro Heritage traits again....

I look forward to it having a trunk again...half the Camaro's Heritage had one....stronger structure, better security for your stuff and less work for the airconditioning...

It seems as though it'll have a better hood design.....scoops or cowl induction...either way, it says Camaro and is in it's Heritage to have it.....that and we'l obviously get a spoiler too. :D

See the pattern?

To me Retro is a complete remake of a certian model......ala the T-bird......to use Heritage Styling Cues is keeping the car's DNA alive.

Who'd want a car that we couldn't even tell it was a Camaro?!? :confused: :mad:

Heritage Styling Cues are a requirement to be able to recognize the car as a Camaro......but it doesn't mean it'll be Retro ...not by a long shot. :cool: :D :bow:



Heritage styling........................no, it is not. What other Camaro does it look like other than the 69'? There is nothing from any other Camaro, except for the 4th gen blended mirrors. Other than that, there is no 2nd gen, no 3rd, and no 4th, it is the Camaro counterpart of the "new" retro Mustang design. The grill is 1st gen, so is the whole shape, bodystyle, roofline, windows, wheel arches, trunklid, ect.

The Camaro doesn't need to rely so heavily on the past for people to know it is a Camaro. This has been done for 35 years and it can be done again. A good modern design seems to fit well with a new modern image, one that will shed the old image of being antiquated. If you have a whole retro car, then it doesn't seem like the car is moving foward, breaking new ground and looking to a long future, like it should.

I think you guys forget that even when the Camaro had a modern design it wasn't selling well (aka, the last few years). So, if retro won't work for you and a modern design has proven not to work, then maybe GM should just leave it dead. I'm also seeing lots of confusion between the "heritage cues" and "retro" labels. So is it retro or not? Give it time, you'll all come around, because in the end you've got nothing else to go to GM.

Originally posted by dream '94 Z28
No offense,but that's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. What you're speaking of blind loyalty.

No offense taken. However, you're wrong. Loyalty IS blind. Justice is blind. Faith is blind. Look up the definition, tell me if it's blind or not.

A quick sketch... (http://f1.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/lamplightsg/detail?.dir=/My+Drawings-5th+Gen+Camaro&.dnm=d30a.jpg)

Forgive me, it's loaded to Yahoo! photos. :shame:

Get rid of the blended mirror humps, it's gotta have more roof or backseat passengers will need to lean forewards...the rest looks like one of the BEST renderings I've seen to date..:cool:

Personally I also liked this evolutionary look done by 90 Z28SS.

http://community.webshots.com/photo/105482099/105483379LZfWeH

http://community.webshots.com/photo/105482099/117517442eYucYE

It says Camaro to me with out blatantly take cues of other generations.

I think everyone is worrying to much, and many of the people complaining now about sketches will be lining up to buy one when it comes out, or even when REAL PHOTOS are available.

A new camaro with LSx, T56, modern interior and gas mileage, with any kind of sleek camaro look, will satisfy most, and this kind of argument will be in the background

of greater concern to me is the name. im more likely to not buy the new coupe under another name, than i am to turn down a camaro bc of a grill or fender. (for the sake of argument however, i will mention that i think 1st gen camaros are gods gift to automotive looks, so I have no major problem with the current sketches)

One more time....

http://home.comcast.net/~blackwoodgarcia/69camfan/GenV_rev4.jpg

Originally posted by stars1010
Personally I also liked this evolutionary look done by 90 Z28SS.

http://community.webshots.com/photo/105482099/105483379LZfWeH

http://community.webshots.com/photo/105482099/117517442eYucYE

It says Camaro to me with out blatantly take cues of other generations.

GAD DANG NOW THATS A CAMARO!!
not retro at all, but you know when you look it, thats a Camaro!!
OMG Big Al wants that!!

I think 90Z28SS has more imagination than GM! There's only a few things I'd change about that car, otherwise it would sell. Keep retro for the wierd people. :) Don't forget to put "Designed by little kids" below the ever so cool blended mirrors on the retro car. ;)

Originally posted by stars1010
Personally I also liked this evolutionary look done by 90 Z28SS.

http://community.webshots.com/photo/105482099/105483379LZfWeH

http://community.webshots.com/photo/105482099/117517442eYucYE

It says Camaro to me with out blatantly take cues of other generations.

yeah, i could see that passing as a camaro :)

Originally posted by stars1010
Personally I also liked this evolutionary look done by 90 Z28SS.

http://community.webshots.com/photo/105482099/105483379LZfWeH

http://community.webshots.com/photo/105482099/117517442eYucYE

It says Camaro to me with out blatantly take cues of other generations.

Good Damn, now that is SEXY! Where do i sign up?

Originally posted by jg95z28
One more time....

http://home.comcast.net/~blackwoodgarcia/69camfan/GenV_rev4.jpg

jg95z28, since you seem good at this, would you make a few mods to this design by my request? I like how you sloped/raked the entire front and windshield, but the whole design needs work.

-Take away blended mirrors, add sharp edged Third-like ones.
-Make the quarter crease stop before the door and not go into it.
-Make fenders cut more, as to show the tires.
-Make spoiler wrap around.
-Make hood and entire front in more of a V shape.
-Take away chrome bar and Chevy emblem. Try to add lights and pockets like this car: http://community.webshots.com/photo/105482099/105483379LZfWeH Revise grill and add Camaro emblem.
-Make lower grill in the shape of an IROC-Z/LT1 grill. Use LT1 width, use IROC-Z overall size. Add squared-off lights on each side.
-Take away openings next to parking lights and move them in closer to the lower grill.
-Add lower front bumper extension or spoiler. Could also try some actual GFX on the whole car.

Originally posted by PaperTarget
I think you guys forget that even when the Camaro had a modern design it wasn't selling well (aka, the last few years). So, if retro won't work for you and a modern design has proven not to work, then maybe GM should just leave it dead. I'm also seeing lots of confusion between the "heritage cues" and "retro" labels. So is it retro or not? Give it time, you'll all come around, because in the end you've got nothing else to go to GM.

So you are saying that GM has no choice but to go to a retro design or else the Camaro will be a big failure? Sounds like you just want it to join the Mustang in retroland. If you have learned one thing about the Camaro's demise, you should know that it had nothing to do with styling.

God I hope the Camaro will not be retro!

Originally posted by SNEAKY NEIL
So you are saying that GM has no choice but to go to a retro design or else the Camaro will be a big failure? Sounds like you just want it to join the Mustang in retroland. If you have learned one thing about the Camaro's demise, you should know that it had nothing to do with styling.

God I hope the Camaro will not be retro!

As much as I think that retro blows... Styling had a lot to do with killing the fbody. I think that the 4th gen was just getting long in the tooth stylistic wise. If it was a bit more exciting, GM might have acutaly been motivated to develop or use another chassis for the 5th gen in 03. But the sebring-esque front end, and other issues helped kill this car sales wise.

Originally posted by PaperTarget
I think you guys forget that even when the Camaro had a modern design it wasn't selling well (aka, the last few years). So, if retro won't work for you and a modern design has proven not to work, then maybe GM should just leave it dead. I'm also seeing lots of confusion between the "heritage cues" and "retro" labels. So is it retro or not? Give it time, you'll all come around, because in the end you've got nothing else to go to GM.


This is the worst post I have seen you make.

For real reasons why the F-Body died... all 100 billion of them, please re-read the last 3 years of posts here.

Originally posted by stars1010
Personally I also liked this evolutionary look done by 90 Z28SS.

http://community.webshots.com/photo/105482099/105483379LZfWeH

http://community.webshots.com/photo/105482099/117517442eYucYE

It says Camaro to me with out blatantly take cues of other generations.

I love the front end on this one. :bow:

Originally posted by Darth Xed
This is the worst post I have seen you make.

For real reasons why the F-Body died... all 100 billion of them, please re-read the last 3 years of posts here.

:bow:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by stars1010
Personally I also liked this evolutionary look done by 90 Z28SS.

http://community.webshots.com/photo...105483379LZfWeH

http://community.webshots.com/photo...117517442eYucYE

It says Camaro to me with out blatantly take cues of other generations.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally posted by jcamere94z28
I love the front end on this one. :bow:


Me too, and although I'm sure RP is watching this thread,maybe someone should email it to him.

RP?

Red Planet

Originally posted by SNEAKY NEIL
So you are saying that GM has no choice but to go to a retro design or else the Camaro will be a big failure? Sounds like you just want it to join the Mustang in retroland. If you have learned one thing about the Camaro's demise, you should know that it had nothing to do with styling.

God I hope the Camaro will not be retro!

No no no, that's not what I'm saying at all :rolleyes: The point I'm trying to make is YOU CAN'T PLEASE EVERYONE! I could CARE LESS if the Camaro is retro or not. It doesn't bother me! If a car looks good, who cares if it's retro or not. Your fears that retro is a dead end aren't based on any reality known to man or God.

And styling (both looks and what is does to ride hight) did play a part in the Camaro's demise.

Originally posted by Darth Xed
This is the worst post I have seen you make.

For real reasons why the F-Body died... all 100 billion of them, please re-read the last 3 years of posts here.

I've read them many times. Like you said 100 billion of them. One of which was styling.

I'm not deaf, blind and mute guys. I see what's happening on this board and I get a chuckle out of it. Not because I want Camaro to go away (though it already has)! I want Camaro to live again, but as a CAMARO, not some Australian wanna be (no offense to the GTO) or under a new name. I chuckle because the SAME arguements were happening on the Mustang boards before the 2005 came out. Go to the Mustang boards now, just about everyone loves the car. I think the same with happen with the Camaro IF it shows up as a Camaro.

Sorry you consider it my worst post, but hey, so be it. The truth (even a small part of it) isn't well received if people don't like it.

If my retro dead-end statement is not rational, then name one retro car that has been successful through a redesign. There are none. The major ones have not been designed yet or have already been killed off (Prowler, T-bird, Beetle, ect.). Sooner or later, the designer will have to come up with a modern design or just keep stealing designs from the past. This has already been discussed at length in another post so I will not get into it.

Also, a lack of updates in the styling does not really count as a design failure, all cars need to stay fresh to keep sales, along with many other factors.

Originally posted by SNEAKY NEIL
Sooner or later, the designer will have to come up with a modern design or just keep stealing designs from the past.

which only means that the 05 mustang will one day become.... the 2011 Mustang II!! :puke: If you didnt see how ugly it was back then, here it is with a modern twist!!

Originally posted by Big Als Z
which only means that the 05 mustang will one day become.... the 2011 Mustang II!! :puke: If you didnt see how ugly it was back then, here it is with a modern twist!!

Ugh, I don't think that mistake will be repeated! :p

Originally posted by SNEAKY NEIL
If my retro dead-end statement is not rational, then name one retro car that has been successful through a redesign. There are none. The major ones have not been designed yet or have already been killed off (Prowler, T-bird, Beetle, ect.). Sooner or later, the designer will have to come up with a modern design or just keep stealing designs from the past. This has already been discussed at length in another post so I will not get into it.

Also, a lack of updates in the styling does not really count as a design failure, all cars need to stay fresh to keep sales, along with many other factors.

Prowler and T-Bird were both low production. The Beetle isn't doing as bad as many think. BTW, the T-Bird was the 3rd best selling convertible after Mustang. Not exactly a failure. It was beating Miata, MR2 and Eclipse nearly combined. I think lack of power killed it more than anything.

The Prowler was pricey and also didn't have much oompf. Two things I think that led to its demise. But I totally agree with your last sentence. All cars, retro or not, need to stay fresh to sell.

Originally posted by Big Als Z
which only means that the 05 mustang will one day become.... the 2011 Mustang II!! :puke: If you didnt see how ugly it was back then, here it is with a modern twist!! :lol:

Originally posted by stars1010
Personally I also liked this evolutionary look done by 90 Z28SS.

http://community.webshots.com/photo/105482099/105483379LZfWeH

http://community.webshots.com/photo/105482099/117517442eYucYE

It says Camaro to me with out blatantly take cues of other generations.

Now this is one scetch that is evolutionary!....correct......

and it's got T-Tops!.....it's too sweet!....

Originally posted by PaperTarget
I could CARE LESS if the Camaro is retro or not. It doesn't bother me! If a car looks good, who cares if it's retro or not. Your fears that retro is a dead end aren't based on any reality known to man or God.

You defense of retro sure gives the opposite impression.

I can't remember now the exact publications I read it in, but every car you mention and defend did not come close to meeting it's first year sales numbers in following years. I'm not talking about the normal drop over 3-4 years after into, I mean after the first year sales really dropped.

And as far as basing retro is a dead end in this reality...where's the next gen beetle, cruiser, t-berd, etc? My thinks we are occupying different realities.

:rolleyes:

Very exciting!!! I cant believe someone has seen an actual car, but at 2.5-3 years from the production date I guess it really isnt that surprising.
With the design phase already in full swing if not complete, I think it's time for us to stop being super critical and start being thankful that the car really will exist. I would be happy with all 3 of the above concepts, I'm sure we'll see some real ones pretty soon.

1st gen styling with a modern drivetrain....hmmm

I wonder if GM has been checking out my webpage :D

Any comments to my latest version of all the rumored features.

http://home.comcast.net/~blackwoodgarcia/69camfan/GenV_rev4.jpg

Yes, this is heavily based off crispey's design, however its been refined based on what a couple birdies said. ;)

Nice work jg!

My goodness, this thread has taken a hilarious turn! :lol:

Look guys, this is the direction Camaro seems to be going. I already mentioned that everyone who has seen the car call it modern, great looking, aggressive, or some combination of this. So, can someone explain how it started getting slammed as a "retro" car??

Some people need to chill a bit here. We are talking about a drawing based on eyewitness accounts. It's purpose is to give an idea where styling is going since short of a guided tour of GM's styling studio, no one is going to have a sure idea as to how the car looks.

I'm begining to think alot of you suffer from "retro-noia": An uncontrollable, irrational fear of anything that could be remotely be considered retro. The symtom is the strong critial belief that the 2005 Mustang is retro because it resembles a 1969, but oddly misses the similarities between a modern Corvette and one from 1969.

This symptom can get so bad that when noone says the word retro, or when a theme, crease, or line that links a modern car to it's past, the person already goes into battle stations, until (in some instances) the person damns the carmaker, as well as the car itself, swearing off the brand, although everything about the car is top notch.

[b]Nobody[b] who saw the car said it looked or calls it retro! So please spare it! :p

Originally posted by jg95z28
Any comments to my latest version of all the rumored features.

http://home.comcast.net/~blackwoodgarcia/69camfan/GenV_rev4.jpg

Yes, this is heavily based off crispey's design, however its been refined based on what a couple birdies said. ;)

Let the birds keep singing, I like this "C" car design. Looks aggresive, but not so much that it will turn off the general public. Very nice.

regarding the last sketch....


I really like the front section on that car.


The 68 rear quarters need toned down abit but this sketch has a much different feel that the previous ones. I think a smoother transition back would set it off.

Originally posted by dream '94 Z28
You defense of retro sure gives the opposite impression.

I can't remember now the exact publications I read it in, but every car you mention and defend did not come close to meeting it's first year sales numbers in following years. I'm not talking about the normal drop over 3-4 years after into, I mean after the first year sales really dropped.

And as far as basing retro is a dead end in this reality...where's the next gen beetle, cruiser, t-berd, etc? My thinks we are occupying different realities.

:rolleyes:

I suppose to some degree I am, but that's not my intent. I'm just trying to relay that retro doesn't equate to DEATH. Even modern designs on cars can lead to death.

Most of those cars that you brought up were low volume vehicles which sold MORE than expected the first year or two, then sales declined. All car sales decline after three years unless it's Camry or some other family sedan. I think there are various reasons. For Prowler and T-Bird it was IMO a lack of power and price gouging (especially with the T-Bird). T-Bird was only offered in two unique colors every year. I could be wrong, and will happily admit it, but I don't think Ford expected this car [design] to be around for the next 10 years.

The Beetle's sales are expected to go up with the convertible top. The Beetle has sold poor or well depending on who you talk to. The Beetle is a niche car if you ask me, also not a mass produced vehicle IMO. But was it really retro? Considering the old model didn't stop selling until not too long ago, the "new" Beetle could be considered it's next step in the evolutionary process.

I think the real test of "retro" styling will be the Mustang. It will not be a limited run or niche vehicle. It will be a mass produced (170,000+ units first year) vehicle.

These concepts all look cool, but I would like to see them a little closer to production reality(as in: 16" rims and tires, 2" wheel to fender gap, 1.5" wheel well overhang, a couple more inches of ground clearance and you know most of the scoops and creases will dissapear as well.)
Things are looking up! We might get a Camaro that looks good AND runs fast. For so long its been one without the other.

Originally posted by guionM
My goodness, this thread has taken a hilarious turn! :lol:

Some people need to chill a bit here. We are talking about a drawing based on eyewitness accounts. It's purpose is to give an idea where styling is going since short of a guided tour of GM's styling studio, no one is going to have a sure idea as to how the car looks.

...but oddly misses the similarities between a modern Corvette and one from 1969.


So it doesn't look anything like the pictures being posted :confused: They are without a doubt "retro" The reactions from the people on this board shouldn't be considered hilarious as they are potential buyers. I'm tired of GM telling people what they want ;) I think the passion exhibited here just shows how incredibly emotional some people are about a car, quite the tribute!

Corvette has never looked retro though it did have cues from previous generations (what I'd also like to see from Camaro).

I don't even care about the name, it could be called Mustang for all I care. As long as the car delivers what previous cars did, but better, I would consider buying. If not, the camaro is "officially" dead. I want to buy a new car not buy into some notion of history. The old cars pale in comparison to anything new, in every category, why push the stigma? I like modern not outdated!

Maybe we'll get lucky, GM will release a retro Camaro, and then to appease some of us folks with taste will also release a "modern" Firebird :p :D

When I was talking about retro vehicles and not one of them going through a redesign yet, I didn't necessarily mean they they were a failure, why they were out, I just meant that the ones that were not killed off have not gone through the redesign process yet so we don't know if they are successful or not in the redesign. We also don't know what direction they would take:come up with a fresh design or continue to use other ideas from the past.

As far as Guion's comments about people getting upset, I think they are founded and should not be dismissed. It is true that it is too early to write-off the new not-seen Camaro, but if what you are saying is true, and the sketches are close to the real thing, then that is cause for worry to some, and I include myself. And yes, those sketches are retro, no mistake about it. I would love to see the C5-C6 redesign theme go into the 4th-5th gen Camaro.

Maybe we need to come up with another word besides "retro" because it is such a polarizing word. :)

Well this one looks good
http://home.comcast.net/~blackwoodgarcia/69camfan/GenV_rev4.jpg

But I don't like the front( crome bar, also the "nose" of the car looks just too low, like the cavaliers, the front of the car needs to be a bit more agressive,

this one looks really good especialy the back of the car I hope GM takes a look at this one

http://community.webshots.com/photo/105482099/117517442eYucYE


Note: Gm please 4 round tail lights

:bow:

I think the blue "evolution" one looks a little too much like the Chevy Impala.

Some say they like the round tail lights, but I prefer the slots of the original 1st gen. The blue one has round tail lights and the rear looks too much like the old Corsica's.

Overall I think we're on the right track though. The look is chunky and muscular and that jibes well with the latest looks coming from Cadillac.

Carry on. Then let's have a few polls and vote.

The Evolutionary drawings are awesome! I hope the front end resembles that type of aggresive look. The car in those drawings looks pissed off. Kind of a "Ill chew you up and spit you out". The 05 Stang would look scared next to that. Time will tell. Someone else said but if the Camaro is mellow looking I would hope GM would at least consider, Building off the best looking production car ever (98 - 02 WS6) and giving the Trans AM another shot, having the best of both worlds.

Regards

Any comments to my latest version of all the rumored features. http://home.comcast.net/~blackwoodg...n/GenV_rev4.jpg

Better, but I still don't care much for the blended mirrors...and maybe just a little too much windshield rake...and I (having a Commercial Art cert.)know that when this car takes on real coloring and shading, those fenders will tone on their own...
Almost there...for me..

I hope the fourth-gen mirror thing does not make it into production. I don't care very much for the mirrors blending into the fenders trick and I would rather see the car go without this.

Originally posted by guionM
My goodness, this thread has taken a hilarious turn! :lol:

Look guys, this is the direction Camaro seems to be going. I already mentioned that everyone who has seen the car call it [b]modern, great looking, aggressive, or some combination of this. So, can someone explain how it started getting slammed as a "retro" car??

Some people need to chill a bit here. We are talking about a drawing based on eyewitness accounts. It's purpose is to give an idea where styling is going since short of a guided tour of GM's styling studio, no one is going to have a sure idea as to how the car looks.

I'm begining to think alot of you suffer from "retro-noia": An uncontrollable, irrational fear of anything that could be remotely be considered retro. The symtom is the strong critial belief that the 2005 Mustang is retro because it resembles a 1969, but oddly misses the similarities between a modern Corvette and one from 1969.

This symptom can get so bad that when noone says the word retro, or when a theme, crease, or line that links a modern car to it's past, the person already goes into battle stations, until (in some instances) the person damns the carmaker, as well as the car itself, swearing off the brand, although everything about the car is top notch.

Nobody[b] who saw the car said it looked or calls it retro! So please spare it! :p

If they say its not retro, but these drawings reflect what these certain people have seen, then these drawings are our window into the next camaro, and the drawins are VERY retro.
The new 05 mustang is very retro as you can look at an older design and compare it directly to the new one, just like the 54-58 tbirds to the present tbird. They take on many appreances of an older version. The C6 is not nearly as retro as teh Mustang in comparing the "retro-ness" of each car, the Mustang wins hands down. The C6 is clearly a much better showing of "evolution" and to retro. The hightend fenders does hark back to the C2 and C3's fenders, but over all design and look of the car is very very diffrent then the C2 or C3. Put the 69 stang next to the 05 stang, and you see that they look near the same with the roof line, front end design, interior lay out, almost everything.
Put a C6 next to a C3 and the similarities are less. You know that the C6 is a vette and the C3 is a vette, but you dont see direct design highlights between the 2. Most people would say that the C6 looks more like a updated and more agressive C5. In that case, its more of an evolution, much like the 911 Porsche. You look at a 911 and you know right off the bat that its a Porshe. The slope of the roof, the headlights, the whole front end design is distictive, but it is not a "retro" designed porsche but much as evolution of the last one.
Now that is out of the way, if no one said the car is retro, why are the pictures that people are drawing, which IMO and other peoples opinion think, are retro? The one picture that was posted from webshots with the blue camaro was perfect. Id like for that picture to reviewd and see if thats close as it sounds like its closer to what you posted in the first post of this thread. More and more retro designed cars keep showing up in this thread, and it is not helping the situation. I hope that you are right and that this car is not retro, but the artist renderings tell me otherwise.

I like retro!

Being 21, I did not grow up in the muscle-car era, so retro design cues are not familiar to me outside of car shows, cruises, and muscle car magazines. I like how the new Mustang looks, and if a Camaro comes out resembling a '69 Z28, then that is fine by me.

*puts flame suit on*

I agree with pentatonic. I love the 1st gens and can't wait to buy a 5th gen Camaro that looks bad ass.

*oh crap where did I put my flame suit*

Originally posted by Big Als Z
Put the 69 stang next to the 05 stang, and you see that they look near the same with the roof line, front end design, interior lay out, almost everything.

No offense, but this is not true. I've seen sillouette comparisons of the 2005 Mustang and it is closer (nearly identical) to the 99+ Mustangs than ANY other Mustang. No rear fender bulges like the 65-70 Mustangs either. In fact, the line from the top of the front fender to the rear fender is straight, JUST LIKE the 99+ Mustangs. Even the wheel well flares are like the 99+ Mustangs.

The interior is quite different too. The instrument cluster is from the NEW F-150! The steering wheel looks SIMILAR to the 67 steering wheel, but it is DIFFERENT! I own a 1967 Mustang, I know. The interior seat arangements are from the LINCOLN LS. Go ahead, compare them, they're the same. There are more things that are not the same.

Oh, there are similarities no doubt. But none are from any one generation of Mustang. This car is not a "carbon copy" as has been posted here. The problem is many people here can't get past certain styling cues to see how modern this car really is.

Originally posted by PaperTarget
No offense, but this is not true. I've seen sillouette comparisons of the 2005 Mustang and it is closer (nearly identical) to the 99+ Mustangs than ANY other Mustang. No rear fender bulges like the 65-70 Mustangs either. In fact, the line from the top of the front fender to the rear fender is straight, JUST LIKE the 99+ Mustangs. Even the wheel well flares are like the 99+ Mustangs.

The interior is quite different too. The instrument cluster is from the NEW F-150! The steering wheel looks SIMILAR to the 67 steering wheel, but it is DIFFERENT! I own a 1967 Mustang, I know. The interior seat arangements are from the LINCOLN LS. Go ahead, compare them, they're the same. There are more things that are not the same.

Oh, there are similarities no doubt. But none are from any one generation of Mustang. This car is not a "carbon copy" as has been posted here. The problem is many people here can't get past certain styling cues to see how modern this car really is.

I really don't know what you're looking at. There's too many similarities in those two cars ('68 and '05). The interior is the '68's with new material, right down to the 1960s era lettering on the gauges. The large front grill is the same profile, the driving lamps are in the exact same place. The headlamp bezels are the same. The rear quarter window is the same prfile as the intake/vent thingy on the '68, the three flush fitting vertical tail lamps are the same. If it's not a 'carbon copy', then it's one heck of a 'spitting image'.

I don't know what '99+ 'Stangs you're looking at, but (at least not in this reality or one known to God) by no stretch is the '05 closer to a '99 than a '68. It's not certain styling cues...it's the whole damn car!

I think the problem is people can't get past the fact Ford took a '68 and just added a few contemporary touches.

Originally posted by PaperTarget
No offense, but this is not true. I've seen sillouette comparisons of the 2005 Mustang and it is closer (nearly identical) to the 99+ Mustangs than ANY other Mustang. No rear fender bulges like the 65-70 Mustangs either. In fact, the line from the top of the front fender to the rear fender is straight, JUST LIKE the 99+ Mustangs. Even the wheel well flares are like the 99+ Mustangs.

The interior is quite different too. The instrument cluster is from the NEW F-150! The steering wheel looks SIMILAR to the 67 steering wheel, but it is DIFFERENT! I own a 1967 Mustang, I know. The interior seat arangements are from the LINCOLN LS. Go ahead, compare them, they're the same. There are more things that are not the same.

Oh, there are similarities no doubt. But none are from any one generation of Mustang. This car is not a "carbon copy" as has been posted here. The problem is many people here can't get past certain styling cues to see how modern this car really is.

No, this car is a carbon copy. How do you not see this? The nose, the greenhouse, the side pannels, the graphics, the rear deck... they are all a 69 squeezed through the modern machine and bam you got a spiced up modern 69 Mustang. There is no way you can say otherwize. You cannot honestly tell me that this mustang is not a very close carbon copy of the 69. This is not an evolution of the last one, this is a totaly retro design. Im putting the 04 GT and 05 GT side by side and I am failing to see the resemblance other then they are both "modern." There are only 2 more carbon copy cars that are worse then this one, and thats the Tbird, and the GT40.


I too like reto cars, but not if they mean the death of the Camaro again. I would like to see a Kris Horton 5th gen, but it wont sell to the level GM wants it too and the Camaro name will be given its last rights....AGAIN. I love the Camaro too much to see it die 2 times in a decade. This is why I would like to see GM come up with something new and inspiring not old and already done. Its like painting yourself into a corner. There is no where to go after the retro design has died off. Now you are left with a less then expected sales along with the question, "now what?" I would much rather have a new, fresh design that will wow people instead of something that will just be a draw for enthusiasts.

Originally posted by dream '94 Z28
I really don't know what you're looking at. There's too many similarities in those two cars ('68 and '05). The interior is the '68's with new material, right down to the 1960s era lettering on the gauges. The large front grill is the same profile, the driving lamps are in the exact same place. The headlamp bezels are the same. The rear quarter window is the same prfile as the intake/vent thingy on the '68, the three flush fitting vertical tail lamps are the same. If it's not a 'carbon copy', then it's one heck of a 'spitting image'.

I don't know what '99+ 'Stangs you're looking at, but (at least not in this reality or one known to God) by no stretch is the '05 closer to a '99 than a '68. It's not certain styling cues...it's the whole damn car!

I think the problem is people can't get past the fact Ford took a '68 and just added a few contemporary touches.

You're focusing only on the SIMILARITIES! Did you read anything I wrote? Go download some pics of 65-70 Mustangs and then compare them to the 2005. Notice more than the similarities if you can. Notice the lines, the shapes, etc...there's a lot of the late gen Mustang in there. And the front grill profile is not the same either, they're SIMILAR, not the same. Trust me, I know, I have a 1967 Mustang (basically the same as a 68). I can EASILY see the difference.

I never said the 2005 was closer to the 99+ Mustangs on a whole, just in those things I described. Please READ what I WROTE again.

Originally posted by Big Als Z
No, this car is a carbon copy. How do you not see this? The nose, the greenhouse, the side pannels, the graphics, the rear deck... they are all a 69 squeezed through the modern machine and bam you got a spiced up modern 69 Mustang. There is no way you can say otherwize. You cannot honestly tell me that this mustang is not a very close carbon copy of the 69. This is not an evolution of the last one, this is a totaly retro design. Im putting the 04 GT and 05 GT side by side and I am failing to see the resemblance other then they are both "modern." There are only 2 more carbon copy cars that are worse then this one, and thats the Tbird, and the GT40.


I too like reto cars, but not if they mean the death of the Camaro again. I would like to see a Kris Horton 5th gen, but it wont sell to the level GM wants it too and the Camaro name will be given its last rights....AGAIN. I love the Camaro too much to see it die 2 times in a decade. This is why I would like to see GM come up with something new and inspiring not old and already done. Its like painting yourself into a corner. There is no where to go after the retro design has died off. Now you are left with a less then expected sales along with the question, "now what?" I would much rather have a new, fresh design that will wow people instead of something that will just be a draw for enthusiasts.

Wait, is it a carbon copy (EXACTLY the SAME) or "very close" as you say later? Even the other Camaro enthusiasts on this site can't agree which 65-70 Mustang it is a "carbon copy" of. One says 65, another 68, another 69 and another says 70. So which is it? And I can honestly say this car is NOT a carbon copy of any past Mustang. I listed several examples in my post why. Please read it again, download the pictures of older Mustangs and COMPARE them! Try not to see what you want to see and focus on what's really there.

The Camaro isn't even out yet, geez, give it a chance at least. And since no MASS PRODUCED RETRO, non-niche vehicle as been redisgned yet, you're premature in deciding there's no where to go after a retro design. The Mustang could EASILY look like this http://home.cogeco.ca/~topnotchpics/Cougar.jpg in 4 years.

I think the confusion lies in the fact that the new Mustang uses SO many styling cues from the 65-68 era.

It's one thng to take some of the best cues from all gens and try to incorporate them into a new version...ala the C6...it's clearly retro to take as many cues from one period and use them again....ala the T-Bird and to a large extent the new Mustang.

If Ford would have chosen a modern interior instead of nearly a direct copy of the 60's model (I owned a few myself) it might not have been so blatant.

But come on, the headlights, fog lights, grille, roof profile, sail panel windows, (imitation) gas tank filler cap, interior, etc.... are ALL remakes of the 60's car.....even it's "designer" said it was retro.

Is it a bad thing? Only time and sales will tell.

We need to remember, Ford doesn't allow their designs to languish for ten to twelve years (like the F-bodies) without a major redesign....this current Mustang will only look this way for five years or so anyway, so why worry?

I like the new Mustang better than the last 20+ years worth, so maybe it was time to pay homage to the early models.....

Personally, a car with the Mustang and Camaro's history HAS to be recognizable and continue the lineage.

I'm also starting to think that the current sketches by crispey2k are using too many cues from the 1st gens and especially the nose/grille needs to get away from this gen....I love the 69 inspired fender sweeps though....

A second gen influence (split bumper)...which carried on into the last of he 4th gens, needs to be used. It's sleeker and more recognizable.

I'd like to see MB SL500 series style headlight/fog/turn lights used with a lower than belt line, seperate (from the lights) grille....but that's just me... ;)

But the thread on Cheers & Gears started with evok trying to get someone to draw what he "saw" and not a design contest.

Originally posted by PaperTarget
You're focusing only on the SIMILARITIES! Did you read anything I wrote? Go download some pics of 65-70 Mustangs and then compare them to the 2005. Notice more than the similarities if you can. Notice the lines, the shapes, etc...there's a lot of the late gen Mustang in there. And the front grill profile is not the same either, they're SIMILAR, not the same. Trust me, I know, I have a 1967 Mustang (basically the same as a 68). I can EASILY see the difference.

I never said the 2005 was closer to the 99+ Mustangs on a whole, just in those things I described. Please READ what I WROTE again.

I've read, I've looked. I still don't understand your arguement.

Your saying this is a '68 with the silouhette of a '99? That's still retro. Yes, we are all focusing on the simularities...that's why we think it's retro. There a ton of them (simularities).

Originally posted by dream '94 Z28
I've read, I've looked. I still don't understand your arguement.

Your saying this is a '68 with the silouhette of a '99? That's still retro. Yes, we are all focusing on the simularities...that's why we think it's retro. There a ton of them (simularities).

Um, no. It's a 2005 with the roofline sillouette of a 99+ Mustang. I don't care if you think it's retro or not, that doesn't bother me. I'm just amazed that people can't see the Lincoln LS, F-150 and 99+ Mustang influences in the car. But I totally agree that there are LOTS of design cues from the 60's. The point I'm trying to make is those aren't the only ones. I'd go as far as saying the car is halfway designed as retro, but definitely not a completely retro car.

Originally posted by Doug Harden
I think the confusion lies in the fact that the new Mustang uses SO many styling cues from the 65-68 era.

It's one thng to take some of the best cues from all gens and try to incorporate them into a new version...ala the C6...it's clearly retro to take as many cues from one period and use them again....ala the T-Bird and to a large extent the new Mustang.

If Ford would have chosen a modern interior instead of nearly a direct copy of the 60's model (I owned a few myself) it might not have been so blatant.

But come on, the headlights, fog lights, grille, roof profile, sail panel windows, (imitation) gas tank filler cap, interior, etc.... are ALL remakes of the 60's car.....even it's "designer" said it was retro.

Is it a bad thing? Only time and sales will tell.

We need to remember, Ford doesn't allow their designs to languish for ten to twelve years (like the F-bodies) without a major redesign....this current Mustang will only look this way for five years or so anyway, so why worry?

I like the new Mustang better than the last 20+ years worth, so maybe it was time to pay homage to the early models.....

Personally, a car with the Mustang and Camaro's history HAS to be recognizable and continue the lineage...

But the thread on Cheers & Gears started with evok trying to get someone to draw what he "saw" and not a design contest.

I think you hit alot of things on the head with this post.

Though the new Mustang's design is entirely modern (it simply doesn't look like a 1969 Mustang when parked side by side) there has no doubt been a whole lot of styling cues from the past put on what is IMO a modern body. (BTW: J. Mays resented using the term "retro" regarding the new Mustang, and simply began using the term because he got tired of defending himself on that). To me, Thunderbird, PT Cruiser, HHR, and SSR are all "retro styled" cars in that they look like they came from another age.

I put the new Mustang in the same catagory as the Corvette and the 4th gen Camaro in that cues from the past are done on a modern car. The 4th gen till '98 had a front end that looked like a modernized '79 Monza, taillights that looked like a modernized post-'74 Camaro, and a body that looked like a modernized version of that same car. Corvette looks like a modernized version of the 1969. The new Mustang has the grille & headlights lights from the 60s, rear quarter windows that are modernized versions of Shelbys, and the fake gas cap out back. Everything else on the car is either all new, or has more in common with the current Mustang than anything from the 60s.

Also, as Doug points out, Ford doesn't tend to let their cars languish without restylings (save the current Taurus). It seems it would be very easy to update the Mustang's body (as opposed to the PT, T-Bird & the Beetle or Mini).

The reason I made light of the "Retronoia" of some here is because they are throwing threats of not buying another GM (etc...) without having even seen the car yet!!! This is completely absurd. :lol:

If the people who have seen the car say it ISN'T, I think it's pretty dumb for people to label it before they even see a real picture of it.

Originally posted by AdioSS

3. Look at what has come from the I think it's called GM360? small-midsize truck platform. First, Trailblazer & Envoy, then the extended versions, then the SSR. I think the Colorado is a shrunk down version, but I'm not sure.

And don't forget the Buick Rainier, Isuzu Ascender, upcoming Saab 9-7 and Bel Air show car. They're all GMT360 as well.

Originally posted by guionM
I think you hit alot of things on the head with this post.

Though the new Mustang's design is entirely modern (it simply doesn't look like a 1969 Mustang when parked side by side) there has no doubt been a whole lot of styling cues from the past put on what is IMO a modern body. (BTW: J. Mays resented using the term "retro" regarding the new Mustang, and simply began using the term because he got tired of defending himself on that). To me, Thunderbird, PT Cruiser, HHR, and SSR are all "retro styled" cars in that they look like they came from another age.

I put the new Mustang in the same catagory as the Corvette and the 4th gen Camaro in that cues from the past are done on a modern car. The 4th gen till '98 had a front end that looked like a modernized '79 Monza, taillights that looked like a modernized post-'74 Camaro, and a body that looked like a modernized version of that same car. Corvette looks like a modernized version of the 1969. The new Mustang has the grille & headlights lights from the 60s, rear quarter windows that are modernized versions of Shelbys, and the fake gas cap out back. Everything else on the car is either all new, or has more in common with the current Mustang than anything from the 60s.

Also, as Doug points out, Ford doesn't tend to let their cars languish without restylings (save the current Taurus). It seems it would be very easy to update the Mustang's body (as opposed to the PT, T-Bird & the Beetle or Mini).

The reason I made light of the "Retronoia" of some here is because they are throwing threats of not buying another GM (etc...) without having even seen the car yet!!! This is completely absurd. :lol:

If the people who have seen the car say it ISN'T, I think it's pretty dumb for people to label it before they even see a real picture of it.

WTH :confused: I've been saying this from the get go but you give Doug credit for it? :rolleyes: :p LOL, not that I care ;) But you're saying what I've been saying since day one, just more eloquently. This is a modern car. It has many styling cues from the past. I think the Camaro, if it comes out as a Camaro, will be very similar in theme though with fewer cues from the past than the Mustang. Surely my message is getting through to someone :cry: :cool:

Please...retro or not...no fake gas caps or purely cosmetic body doo-dads on the next Camaro. :rolleyes: Thanks. :)

Originally posted by number77
and what happened to GM swearing off retro styling?

SSR is out, and we'll probably see HHR and Nomad sometime soon. Then there were concepts like the Bel-Air. Doesn't seem like they swore it off to me;).

Anyways, those who criticize the 05 mustang for being a "carbon copy" of the original really need to see it in person. Your opinions may not sway a 180, but you'll see how modern it looks despite some of the 60's cues. This car is far from being a "carbon copy".

Heck, the most retro part of the car is the front end, and even that has a distinctly different shape, proportion, and appearance than the 67 which it is supposed to emulate. *See pics*
Front of 67 mustang GT: http://www.acsracing.com/images/67_GT_mustang_front.jpg

2 Front shots of 2005 Mustang GT:
Pic 1 (http://forums.stangnet.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=19779)
Pic 2 (http://forums.stangnet.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=19778)

Having "cues" and being a "carbon copy" are two very different things, and some here fail to note this simple fact.

Originally posted by guionM
......
If the people who have seen the car say it ISN'T, I think it's pretty dumb for people to label it before they even see a real picture of it.

We need to keep this comment in mind.....;)

Originally posted by RiceEating5.0
Anyways, those who criticize the mustang for being too retro really need to see it in person. Your opinions may not sway a 180, but you'll see how modern it looks despite some of the 60's cues.

Indeed, many people who HATED this car posted later after seeing it in person that they thought it was very nice (granted they still wouldn't buy it) and looked good. Those that were iffy, came back from seeing it in person and thought it would be their next car.

Personally I'd love to have something like this http://forums.bradbarnett.net/uploads/post-7-1080008935.jpg I've always wanted a convertible and this car looks like it might be my first. We'll see, there are so many nice cars coming out this year and next.

Originally posted by PaperTarget
Personally I'd love to have something like this http://forums.bradbarnett.net/uploads/post-7-1080008935.jpg I've always wanted a convertible and this car looks like it might be my first. We'll see, there are so many nice cars coming out this year and next.

Very nice:cool:. Personally, the weight issue has me shying from drop tops.

I've seen all the pictures, all the arguments, and I've thought about it.....

...the car is retro to me:blah:

Originally posted by dream '94 Z28
I've seen all the pictures, all the arguments, and I've thought about it.....

...the car is retro to me:blah:

That's perfectly fine and understandable given the obvious cues, but do you think it is a "carbon copy" like some have suggested?

Lol, i think we've beaten this dead horse one too many times btw.

Originally posted by RiceEating5.0
Very nice:cool:. Personally, the weight issue has me shying from drop tops.

Weight is a big deal to me on hard tops. It's the one of the things that turned me off the GTO. I'm willing to mod a hard top for power, but not a convertible. I consider a four seat convertible for cruising and fun with friends, not racing (too dangerous in a drop top). 300 HP and 87 octane with a drop top is perfect.

Originally posted by RiceEating5.0
That's perfectly fine and understandable given the obvious cues, but do you think it is a "carbon copy" like some have suggested?

Lol, i think we've beaten this dead horse one too many times btw.

I think he's talking about the Camaro, but I think it applies to both. And yes, that poor horse needs a rest :D

By my definition and design opinions and standards (which I hope doesn't come off as 'holier than thou' as it might), yes I do.

The number if simularities is too many to me, and in general it's just not original. And no, not talking about the Camaro.

I hope this horse has stopped breathing....

Ahem...


Whatever it is you decide to label that car isnt going to stop it from selling like MAD!

If GM can create a car that will sell in numbers like that, I could really care less if it pleases the anti-retro crew here.

Count me as one that is SICK AND TIRED of the anit-retro crying.

Whoa, settle down there big guy...grab a 'Mr. Pibb':D

No body is crying. some of us are just equally passionate about not like retro design as those who like it.

Haha this thread is hilarious.

Who gives a rat's ass what the anti-retro crowd thinks. If the Camaro goes back to an upright 3 box design that's USABLE by NORMAL people, it'll rival the stang for sales. The new stang is going to DESTROY all myths about retro not selling well. Know why? Because previous retro picked the wrong era. The '30s(PT Cruiser), '40's(VW bug), and '50s(Thunderturd) were NOT the eras of sleek muscular cars. ONLY the '60s achieved that final inspired design of the muscle car that's All-American. WE love it still today. Beautiful designs are eternal. The shape transcends eras. I just drove past a black primered '70 Challenger and got a hard on. The SHAPE is functional yet brutally aggressive.

Nobody wants an oversized, low slung, upside down row boat, cat fish mouthed, vette-lite car....... anymore. Talk about weeding out the normal people from your consumer base. Guess why I never bought a Camaro.

'69 looked WAAAYY better than '02. Hell it was better.

For the Camaro's sake, that insider sketch better be close to the real thing.

Flame suit on.

Originally posted by dream '94 Z28


No body is crying. some of us are just equally passionate about not like retro design as those who like it.

So true. If I want a 69' Z, I'll go buy one. They are still around and as good as ever but who the hell needs a modern redo of the 69' design? I think some of the retro fans just don't think that a new design can be created that is timeless, this is wrong. It will be interesting to see how the Mustang does but you can't forget that Ford and Mustang fans will always buy Mustangs no matter how ugly or slow they are compared to competition.

Originally posted by hp_nut
Haha this thread is hilarious.

Who gives a rat's ass what the anti-retro crowd thinks. If the Camaro goes back to an upright 3 box design that's USABLE by NORMAL people, it'll rival the stang for sales. The new stang is going to DESTROY all myths about retro not selling well. Know why? Because previous retro picked the wrong era. The '30s(PT Cruiser), '40's(VW bug), and '50s(Thunderturd) were NOT the eras of sleek muscular cars. ONLY the '60s achieved that final inspired design of the muscle car that's All-American. WE love it still today. Beautiful designs are eternal. The shape transcends eras. I just drove past a black primered '70 Challenger and got a hard on. The SHAPE is functional yet brutally aggressive.

Nobody wants an oversized, low slung, upside down row boat, cat fish mouthed, vette-lite car....... anymore. Talk about weeding out the normal people from your consumer base. Guess why I never bought a Camaro.

'69 looked WAAAYY better than '02. Hell it was better.

For the Camaro's sake, that insider sketch better be close to the real thing.

Flame suit on.

Interesting perspective, I’ve never looked at it like that. Good job thinking out side of the box! :thumb:

Originally posted by hp_nut

Guess why I never bought a Camaro.



Because you enjoy looking at tail lights?

It does not matter what era the retro design was stolen from because that does not determin the success. Those cars are not from the era of sleek muscle cars because they are not muscle cars. Many will say that designs from the 50's were some of the best of all time and not the 60's but the T-Bird still failed to reach its goals so that is not really a sound theory. Think about this. What will we all think of these retro cars (or whatever you want to call them) in 20-30 years. We will say, those were remakes of classics and why buy them when you can have the real thing. They are like cover songs, never as good as the originals because the originals were classics and we know and love them so much.


You always talk about "the sales, the sales", but what does that have to do with the consumer? As long as the car can be profitable and sell in numbers to support that, then who cares if they are the sales leader. I want a superior product. I don't want a car that has to satisfy the 16 year old girl who wants a car because it is red. The car can not forget the core audience. I don't care what anyone trys to tell me, the Mustang is a compromise car and it tries to satisfy a little of everyone and make it a sporty coupe, not a sports car. This is fine for some, hell, it is fine for many but I want the car that the Camaro has always been. If this is not what people want anymore, then fine, GM can do what they want but I won't buy one anymore if they go to a Mustang-like formula. I won't whine or bitch, I'll probably just get a used Corvette or something.

Good points about the 'anti-retro' crowd, but you forget one thing:

Why in the world do I care what sells? It is not my job to do so. I don't work for GM and I'm not under any illusion that they need my help to sell cars*. It is my business to care about what I like, and only encourage them to do what I like**. If that means buying two of them and convincing all my friends to buy one when the Camaro turns out how I want it, great. On the flip side, don't expect me to buy or advocate (or even be interested in...) a car with styling and layout that I don't like, only because it sells well. If it sells well, it doesn't need me to help it any.

* Except for that day or so where I sold cars for GM.
** I assume that's why so many of us are here.

Originally posted by SNEAKY NEIL

You always talk about "the sales, the sales", but what does that have to do with the consumer? As long as the car can be profitable and sell in numbers to support that, then who cares if they are the sales leader. I want a superior product. I don't want a car that has to satisfy the 16 year old girl who wants a car because it is red. The car can not forget the core audience. I don't care what anyone trys to tell me, the Mustang is a compromise car and it tries to satisfy a little of everyone and make it a sporty coupe, not a sports car. This is fine for some, hell, it is fine for many but I want the car that the Camaro has always been. If this is not what people want anymore, then fine, GM can do what they want but I won't buy one anymore if they go to a Mustang-like formula. I won't whine or bitch, I'll probably just get a used Corvette or something. [/B]

:bow:

Originally posted by SNEAKY NEIL
...but the T-Bird still failed to reach its goals so that is not really a sound theory....
the T bird was underpowered and just overall not that great of a car.. not to mention, it really didnt offer much for the rpice, and isnt in a very popular segment of the market... more reasons other than its being retro lead to its failure

About the sales.
Sales are very important. Now, the Mustang might be getting ooos and ahhs now, but what about 3 years from now? Will it continue to sell at the level it does not? The V6 sales make up more then half of the total sales of the Mustang. For the last of the Camaro's, the V8 sales made up for the most of it. The Camaro became a huge enthusiats car with 325hp V8, superior handling, low slung feel, and large wheels. The Mustang was and still is a chick car. You cant tell me otherwise. The V8 models might have a male dominated demographic, but I bet you that if you look around at all the v6 mustangs, you will find a female behind it. Not to mention I see about 6-7 V6 models a day to maybe 1 GT or Cobra. Now, this is what keeps the Mustang afloat. Without V6 sales, the Mustang would probably sell at the level of the Fbodies.
When 16 year old girls dont like the design of the "old car" they will go to other places like Civics, Cobalts, and Corollas. There will be large sales numbers of the mustang in its first year, I have NO doubt in that. But after you see the 20384032840237 retro mustang, the look will just lose its coolness. The car will lose whatever mojo it had, and I belive that sales will go down.
Another fact is that the baby boomers do not want a Mustang, Well most wont. They might like the car, but the chances that they will buy one are slim. They want something that shows class and luxury like a Lexus, Caddy, BMW, or a MB, not a Mustang.
Now, who is gunna buy these mustangs? Well, we talked about the 16 year old girls, and how they might lose there attraction to the "old" looking car, so you lose thoes sales. You have the enthusiast that buy up the GT models as expected. But who else is gunna buy the car? Whos gunna buy up the V6 mustangs?
Last group is the Gen Y'ers, and the last time I checked, they wana drive something much more like a 350Z then a Mustang. They are attracted to flashy desing, and not some design that there parents love.

So now you have the case of fbodyitis. This is what happens when the car becomes an enthusiast car. Now all the sales are falling after the first year and a half or so, and Ford is thinking that maybe its just leveling off. The Mustang starts to sell at below then expected. But, maybe they pannic because they are getting beat on other levels like sedans and trucks. Ford freaks and trys to stop be bleeding, and pulls the plug on the declining Mustang to help support redesigns and updates for the seadan and trucks. But its too late. Ford falls into the red again, and Toyota and Honda roll over them..... But hey, Fords got that sweet ass GT40 right?

Ok, so maybe that wont happen... or will it? :death:

Like Ive said before, as much as I would love to see a retro 69 Camaro as the 5th gen with a big 400hp LS2, 6spd, etc etc, I am more worried about its place in Chevy's line up past one year. The Camaro needs to sell at 110k units a year for at least 4 years after its released. I dont think thats possible with a retro design. By late 2nd and 3rd year, sales could drop.

Originally posted by SNEAKY NEIL
This is fine for some, hell, it is fine for many but I want the car that the Camaro has always been. If this is not what people want anymore, then fine, GM can do what they want but I won't buy one anymore if they go to a Mustang-like formula.

I completely understand. I just don't want a Chevy Mustang. It had to be a design like Mustang for its launch in '67 to gain momentum...but for most of its life Camaro was something different. I don't see a reason why Camaro can't continue to be a lower-slung car while improving comfort, room, ease of entry/exit and so forth.

Originally posted by hp_nut
Nobody wants an oversized, low slung, upside down row boat, cat fish mouthed, vette-lite car....... anymore. Talk about weeding out the normal people from your consumer base. Guess why I never bought a Camaro.

Out of morbid curiousity....what do you define as 'normal people'?:think:

I don't think it's me, as I really like the low slung, 'Vette like car that feels like a cruise missle on wheels.

Originally posted by Big Als Z
About the sales.
Sales are very important. Now, the Mustang might be getting ooos and ahhs now, but what about 3 years from now? Will it continue to sell at the level it does not? The V6 sales make up more then half of the total sales of the Mustang. For the last of the Camaro's, the V8 sales made up for the most of it. The Camaro became a huge enthusiats car with 325hp V8, superior handling, low slung feel, and large wheels. The Mustang was and still is a chick car. You cant tell me otherwise. The V8 models might have a male dominated demographic, but I bet you that if you look around at all the v6 mustangs, you will find a female behind it. Not to mention I see about 6-7 V6 models a day to maybe 1 GT or Cobra. Now, this is what keeps the Mustang afloat. Without V6 sales, the Mustang would probably sell at the level of the Fbodies.

Hmmm, do you have numbers? Cause i've seen the numbers and GT sales alone (close to 40,000 units past few years, and close to 60k in 00) where more than v6 and v8 firebirds combined, and close to being on par with v6 and v8 camaro's combined. Toss in the Cobra's and you'll see Ford actually sold more v8 powered mustangs than chevy did v6 and v8 camaro's. So even on the v8 side, the f-bod was still being outsold 3 to 1.

Btw: Females make up about 30% of mustang buyers. I think the camaro was something like 20%. But you look at the sheer numbers and it is obvious that 100,000+ guys are still buying mustangs every year to maybe the camaro's 25-3x's some thousand. So even on the male side, the ratio is still high. For every 1 guy that bought a camaro 3 to 4 guys bought mustangs.

So 1) how does that make the mustang a "chick" car? and 2) how does v8 mustang sales compare to f-bod v8 sales?

But true in that v6 sales are needed to keep moniker afloat. 100k+ units a year just isn't possible without a v6 in the lineup. I think this is one of the reasons why i think GM should heavily push the 5th gen v6 sales and models since the burden of sales wil rest squarely on their shoulders.

Originally posted by Big Als Z
Last group is the Gen Y'ers, and the last time I checked, they wana drive something much more like a 350Z then a Mustang. They are attracted to flashy desing, and not some design that there parents love.


Err.... *NEW* mustang, camaro's, and 350z's don't cater to Gen Y'ers. Look up the age of a *NEW* Mustang and camaro buyers. Carpoint had the stats at one time, and the average age and income of a new mustang/f-bod buyer was a 40 some year old male with a 60,000 dollar annual income. Basically mid-life crises cars, lol. Sure you might see 16-18 year olds driving them, but they (or parent) either brought them used or they had daddy buy it for them new. Kids just don't buy these cars.

Also, Gen Y'ers may want a 350z, but they're all stuck with 4cyl front drivers like civics;). I'm a Gen Y'er, and i'd much rather have a Ferrari than a mustang, that however doesn't mean i could afford one. "Want" and "could have" are two different things. The 350z is an expensive car. And for that reason, the mustang will sell to a lot more youths than a 350z with an average price close to 30k.

Originally posted by Z28Wilson
I completely understand. I just don't want a Chevy Mustang. It had to be a design like Mustang for its launch in '67 to gain momentum...but for most of its life Camaro was something different. I don't see a reason why Camaro can't continue to be a lower-slung car while improving comfort, room, ease of entry/exit and so forth.

Here's my 2 cents.

1) camaro is no corvette. It is no sports car either.
2) A sports car personality and charector will equal sport car sales numbers....not good if GM is interested in selling 100,000+ units a year.

Looking at the 4th gen, it owed the low slung look to the steeply racked windshield, huge dash which had a good portion of the engine under it, etc.... Those areas could be addressed, but to a certain extent. Either way you look at it, there'll have to be sacrifises in ease of entry/exit, visibility, etc.... with any low slung car. Low slung and practical have never gone together.

Odd this is, a few in some of the other forums have accused the mustang of straying from its roots:confused:;).

Originally posted by Stealth 86 LSC
the T bird was underpowered and just overall not that great of a car.. not to mention, it really didnt offer much for the rpice, and isnt in a very popular segment of the market... more reasons other than its being retro lead to its failure

I know. There's lots of reason why those cars failed. Sh*t, Camaro, rx7, 300zx, 3000GT, supra, Marauder, and a bunch of modern designs flopped. Did that have to do with the styling direction (retro or modernitic)? Nope. There were other factors, and this holds true for the retro cars that failed as well. I don't know why some are so convinced the sales flop was due to the retro look.

Lots have also said the stang will fail sales wise based on the retro style and current retro sale trends alone. I've said it before and i'll say it again. Judging by how thin the pony car market got over the years, and the temporary death and poor sales of the 4th gen f-bod, the above logic would dictate that pony cars and coupes just don't sell nor do they have a place in todays market. Is this true? FALSE, since the mustang still managed to pull in strong sales despite these trends. See why you can't base the mishaps, flaws, and general lack of sales of one car and stick it to another? No two cars are built, percieved, recieved, marketed, etc... alike. Other words, Mustang has nothing to do with TB, Beetle, or PT cruisers, and their poor sales or whatever have nothing to do with the mustang.

*rant mode off*:D.

I see a lot of comparisons between the Camaro and the OLD Mustang. I think a lot of you are forgetting the NEW Mustang will be a much better handling car, have more power and will still use 87 octane. BMW has proven that you can have a sports or "sporty" car that doesn't have to be low slung to handle well. On top of that, with gas prices the way they are, 87 octane in a performance vehicle is very attractive. I can't wait to see performance reviews of this car.

BTW, Camaro owners fail to mention that the last two years Mustang has had more than a 260 HP GT. There's the Mach1 at 305 HP (actually 320) and the Cobra at 390 HP (more like 410-415). No factory Camaro that I know of has matched the 2003/2004 Cobra in performance (in any area). If a Camaro comes back, I still don't see it happening with the Mustang on the new chassis.

Originally posted by PaperTarget
I see a lot of comparisons between the Camaro and the OLD Mustang. I think a lot of you are forgetting the NEW Mustang will be a much better handling car, have more power and will still use 87 octane. BMW has proven that you can have a sports or "sporty" car that doesn't have to be low slung to handle well. On top of that, with gas prices the way they are, 87 octane in a performance vehicle is very attractive. I can't wait to see performance reviews of this car.

I don't think some of the guys here want a "sporty" camaro, they want a "sports" camaro...or as hp put it a "vette-lite";). They "want" the low slung look of the 4th gens. Niel has gone as far as to say that he won't even buy one if it deviates from the low slung appearance.

So to some, the performance could be world class, the interior top notch, and the practicality to die for, and they still wouldn't give a rats ass. Lol, some strong opinions. To some, that low slung look has to be there.

BTOriginally posted by PaperTarget
W, Camaro owners fail to mention that the last two years Mustang has had more than a 260 HP GT. There's the Mach1 at 305 HP (actually 320) and the Cobra at 390 HP (more like 410-415). No factory Camaro that I know of has matched the 2003/2004 Cobra in performance (in any area). If a Camaro comes back, I still don't see it happening with the Mustang on the new chassis.

I don't think it'll have trouble hanging or beating any of the lower to intermediate v8 mustang given a slightly detuned Ls2, but if those 500hp Cobras (not Cobra R) rumors have any truth to them, then it'll be a toughy.

Overall, there's no real reason why it couldn't look sporty, offer good practicality and everyday use while still showing the mustangs tail-lights.

I think GM has proven you can build and design a low slung, usable, comfortable cockpit in the C5 and C6 Vettes.

I see no reason this wouldn't be carried over into the next Camaro. My concern is that the next car would not be a sportscar or sports coupe but a 2 door sedan.

Originally posted by dream '94 Z28
I think GM has proven you can build and design a low slung, usable, comfortable cockpit in the C5 and C6 Vettes.

I see no reason this wouldn't be carried over into the next Camaro. My concern is that the next car would not be a sportscar or sports coupe but a 2 door sedan. I honestly don't see that happening as long as they continue to sell the Monte Carlo. :D

Originally posted by dream '94 Z28
I think GM has proven you can build and design a low slung, usable, comfortable cockpit in the C5 and C6 Vettes.

I see no reason this wouldn't be carried over into the next Camaro. My concern is that the next car would not be a sportscar or sports coupe but a 2 door sedan.

But vette's a high-end 2 seater, and a sports car at that. On the other hand, you have a pony car slash sports coupe that is the camaro. Yes, the vette is practical for a 2 seater premium sports car, but how does that translate to a cheaper 2+2 camaro? Is the vettes level of practicality acceptable in a 20k v6 camaro that is expected to sell in HUGE volumes?

GM has proved that they are not content with selling 40 some thousand units a year. There just aren't too many bullet shaped, low slung cars on market that sell 100,000+ a year.

Another big thing, "perception". While the sn95 mustang was a bit more livable than the 4th gen f-bods, its image/look alone gave off the perception of a more practical car, and that to many was a selling point.

I'm just playing devils advocate here btw so don't think i'd want a GTO like camaro over a sleek sports one. As enthusiasts there are things that "we" want, but in looking at the overall picture, "we" the enthusiasts are only a minority of the buyers. 1) GM wants to mass produce this car 2) they want to sell in large volumes 3) they want to target mustangs 4) they want to attract as many buyers as possible. Obviously, a camaro with a sports car personality and character will most likely have a somewhat harder time meeting those 4 "potential" objectives.

Originally posted by RiceEating5.0
3) they want to target mustangsThen it better be as agressive looking as the 2005 Mustang, because that my friend is one badass musclecar!

Originally posted by jg95z28
Then it better be as agressive looking as the 2005 Mustang, because that my friend is one badass musclecar!

Even the v6 i saw at the autoshow had a muscular look to it:thumb:.

http://mustanggt.homestead.com/files/pics/Mustangv6.jpg

I think the V6 is going to sell like mad. Though, perhaps not that color :D

Originally posted by RiceEating5.0
Even the v6 i saw at the autoshow had a muscular look to it:thumb:.

http://mustanggt.homestead.com/files/pics/Mustangv6.jpg Is that gold or green? :eek:

Originally posted by jg95z28
Is that gold or green? :eek:

Some sort of green.

Originally posted by RiceEating5.0 I'm just playing devils advocate here btw[/u] so don't think i'd want a GTO like camaro over a sleek sports one. As enthusiasts there are things that "we" want, but in looking at the overall picture, "we" the enthusiasts are only a minority of the buyers. 1) GM wants to mass produce this car 2) they want to sell in large volumes 3) they want to target mustangs 4) they want to attract as many buyers as possible. Obviously, a camaro with a sports car personality and character will most likely have a somewhat harder time meeting those 4 "potential" objectives. [/B]

I understand, BUT, let me throw another curve in there. I'd be willing to bet the V6 Camaro buyers bought it for it's low slung look.

I think if three major things changed from the F4; raise the roof about .5 inch (like they did on the C5), shorten the doors a bit, and brought the base of the windsheild back while keeping the A-pillar rake close to the 4th gen or what it was on the 3rd Gens you'd have an interior that would, IMO, make both camps very happy. Perhaps take it a step further and have the V8 cars ride maybe .5 -1.0 inches lower

Originally posted by RiceEating5.0
Some sort of green. That's what I thought.... I LIKE IT! :D

Originally posted by dream '94 Z28
I understand, BUT, let me throw another curve in there. I'd be willing to bet the V6 Camaro buyers bought it for it's low slung look.

That might explain the relativelty low number of people that bought v6's;). Hehe.

I'm sure there are many that bought them for that simple reason, and i'm sure that some have shyed from them for that reason as well. Hard to say, other than that the v6's weren't selling in the expected volumes. But that could have come from a hundred other reasons, and not this reason alone.

Originally posted by dream '94 Z28
I think if three major things changed from the F4; raise the roof about .5 inch (like they did on the C5), shorten the doors a bit, and brought the base of the windsheild back while keeping the A-pillar rake close to the 4th gen or what it was on the 3rd Gens you'd have an interior that would, IMO, make both camps very happy. Perhaps take it a step further and have the V8 cars ride maybe .5 -1.0 inches lower

Sounds like a decent compromise, but i'd have to see the actual finished product to see how well it pulls it off. Sometimes changing one part, while keeping the other parts the same makes for some odd proportions.

Originally posted by jg95z28
That's what I thought.... I LIKE IT! :D

Really :confused: That's really close to the original lime-gold color of my 1967 Mustang. It's OK, but not my cup of tea. I'm partial to darker colors (except yellow).

Originally posted by PaperTarget
Really :confused: That's really close to the original lime-gold color of my 1967 Mustang. It's OK, but not my cup of tea. I'm partial to darker colors (except yellow).

It looked nice in person when i saw it. But i still wouldn't pick that color given the choice.

How about the windveil blue? It almost looks grey in some lighting/angles.

http://home.cogeco.ca/~boomer78/05FrontBump.JPG
http://home.cogeco.ca/~boomer78/05Stang3.JPG
http://home.cogeco.ca/~boomer78/05Stang5.JPG

Yeah, windveil is really nice. Two white stripes on that looks really good too.

I think the Camaro will be less sports coupeish and move away from its low-slung siblings to a higher, more sedan like feel. I feel thats one of the reasons why the Mustang sold better is because the car felt more like a large sedan when you sit in it, then a corvette-like cabin.
The Mustang's seats put you up, almost like an small SUV, which leads me to my 2nd reason why more females buy Mustangs. Girls love SUV's because of the seat hight and "comand of the road". They might get that feeling in a Stang!! j/k...sort of. I can sit in a Mustang, then sit in a Taurus and the seat hight is the same. But go from camaro to taurus(as thoes are the 2 cars I own) Its like stepping into an SUV compared to the falling into the Camaro.
But I dont think the Camaro will be too much like a sedan. I think that will be left to the GTO. The Camaro will have a definate sportier feel then the larger GTO. I think that the higher seat might actualy be welcomed by many.
The Cobra was really a great car by Ford, but I feel as if it was a cheap shot kick to the groin of the already dead fbody. Before that, there wasnt really much the Mustang had on the Camaro in a long time. But, the Cobra is also 35k putting it 10k above your average Fbody. And when MM&FF did the comparison test, the SS(that was loaded down with 35anni badges) wasnt that far behind the Cobra in the 1/4, and at the track. I actualy saw that race as they did it at my local Englishtown Raceway. They brought the almighty Evan Smith to run both cars.
Anyway, IF and thats a big IF... IF the Cobra does come with 500hp, The Camaro will not chase it as that starts to become Vette land. Ford has this hard on about taking on the Corvette huh? They keep trying, but keep falling flat. And I dont see a 500hp Mustang when they have a 500hp super car. It just doesnt seem right. I think the Mustang team needs to really work on there own level. The price of a 500hp cobra also wont be all that cheap. I see a 450hp Cobra, but 500 is a lot, think about it. Its almost impracticle as the Mustang is not a dedicated sports car like the Vette or Ford GT. Its a sports car for the every day man. Ford cant lose site of that, because thats what happend to the Camaro. Mark my words, the Mustang will become an enthusiasts car. Between the design, and strong supporty for higher hp models, the car will become something that it wasnt made out for. I honestly think that Ford's Cobra is just fine right now at the level of HP as there is NO ONE out there making cars with that kinda power in the Pony Car market. Maybe an LS6 or LS2 powerd GTO, but the GTO is a higher scale sports car then the Mustang and not really in its class.

Anyway, I know that when the Camaro comes out that the powertrains will be there, as they have been. I belive that the LS2 will be getting a slight hp boost before release this year, probably another 10hp. There is just no way that the LS2 is just making 400hp, some how 5hp less then the Z06. I say its more like 420 at its highest. If they keep it at 400, Id like to see some dyno numbers. But, the Camaro will out handle and out power the Mustang again. Sorry Ford fans, but the LS2 is a much better motor then the 4.6. Perhpas a new age DOHC 4.6 or a 5.4 for a special model like the Bullit/Mach 1 that makes something closer to 400, maybe 380ish. If the LS2 gets a real raiting of 420hp, the Camaro will probably get a "detuned" 400hp LS2.

Originally posted by Big Als Z
And I dont see a 500hp Mustang when they have a 500hp super car. It just doesnt seem right. I think the Mustang team needs to really work on there own level. The price of a 500hp cobra also wont be all that cheap. I see a 450hp Cobra, but 500 is a lot, think about it. Its almost impracticle as the Mustang is not a dedicated sports car like the Vette or Ford GT. Its a sports car for the every day man. Ford cant lose site of that, because thats what happend to the Camaro. Mark my words, the Mustang will become an enthusiasts car. Between the design, and strong supporty for higher hp models, the car will become something that it wasnt made out for.


Ford GT is rated at 550hp, not 500. The L will be coming out in 500hp trim, and the Cobra is rumored to follow it and be in that range as well. So there should be a 50hp gap, not to mention 400+lb weight difference between Cobra and GT.

That's beauty of the Cobra. It's the top dog, a low volume niche vehicle, and just one of the many other mustang offerings. In the coming years, we'll be seeing 9 variations of the mustang, and upto 4 version on any given year. That gives Ford plenty of flexibility, and allows them to target many markets as well as performanec and price points with the mustang.

As far as working on their own level....that's the thing. There's no sports car between the Mustang and the ultra expensive GT. So there's that BIG gap. And prior to the Ford GT, the Cobra (in some years Cobra R) was the Ford flagship performance car.

I don't see a 500hp being a threat to the vette, but it will be to the sport coupes and such in the 35-45k price range.

Why would they turn it into a sedan when they already have two cars that fit in that category? :think:

If the new z06 is everything it's rumored to be, then a 500 HP Cobra should be on its heels nipping. I think the regular non-z06 Vette will get beat by it though, just like the current non-z06 Vette and current Cobra.

Originally posted by jg95z28
Is that gold or green? :eek:
I believe the name is Legend Lime.. check it out at www.themustangsource.com

Originally posted by PaperTarget
If the new z06 is everything it's rumored to be, then a 500 HP Cobra should be on its heels nipping.

Not to stir the pot or anything but a 500 HP Cobra at ~3700 lbs. will have a tough time with a 500 HP Z06 at ~3000 lbs. assuming the power ratings are not underrated.

This post has been long since hi-jacked.....let's take the OT stuff to a new thread guys.......

Originally posted by Doug Harden
This post has been long since hi-jacked.....let's take the OT stuff to a new thread guys....... Getting back to the subject at hand... have you seen the latest proposal over at cheersandgears?

:eek: :eek: :eek:

OMG!

Meets all the criteria without being... RETRO. :D

Originally posted by jg95z28
Getting back to the subject at hand... have you seen the latest proposal over at cheersandgears?

:eek: :eek: :eek:

OMG!

Meets all the criteria without being... RETRO. :D

Hell yes! This is too cool!

http://www.helixstudio.com/ssmd/camaro/camaro_ss.jpeg

-Jason

That's good quality, but that thing still needs help.

why??? i think it looks perfect:bow:

It looks good, but it needs some fine tuning. I can’t exactly say what. It’s close, but not there yet.

BTW while we are talking about the dimensions of the car, I just want it too be able to fit in it. At 6’6” I can only drive some cars.

That's pretty cool, I too think it needs some tweaking (it's personal thing.) If someone could take that, remove the grill completely and give the lights a more agreesive slant...well then....:D

oh yeah...and wrap the rear spoiler around the corners a bit like the 2nd gen.

I still think people worry too much, but atleast its good to know people are still passionate about these cars.

It is my opinion though that no cars made can top the late 60s camaro, charger etc type cars in terms of looks. so if they borrow a few more cues from those than some people want, I am sure they will still sell like mad because they were just so incredibly gorgeous (minus the rim/tire combos, im glad I didnt have to live through that, although bling bling dubs arent any better ;) ) Im sure the mustang will sell no problem for the entire time it looks like it does, I think its the best stang ive ever seen, and so logn as there is a new camaro under a camaro name, the rest will take care of itself.

Originally posted by uluz28
Hell yes! This is too cool!

http://www.helixstudio.com/ssmd/camaro/camaro_ss.jpeg

-Jason

:bow: :bow:

:lol:

Evolutionary? At what point do we start buying cars that look like a V and are ten inches tall?

Face it: the biggest complaints from everyday America (the people who are going to ACTUALLY buy the car IN NUMBERS) were the hood was too long and low, the rear seats were barely useable.

Two areas where the Mustang CLEARLY had the Camaro beat, and I believe it paid off in sales numbers.

You guys can have your 'evolutionary' Corvette-like F5 if you want to, but leave me out of it. Why? Because we'd get it back for a few years, and you'd have the same result: 40k+odd units and it'd die again. If that's what you want, if heritage cues (retro for you Ted Nugent types) are too much for you, feel free to have it whatever way you want, because I won't buy it.

Neither will more buyers than it had in the last 5 years.

It's great that a vette-like F5 is more your style, but you have to admit you are in the minority when it comes to mainstream America, which is where GM is going to market this vehicle. The American public just simply isn't going to buy an anti-SUV, a California concept Camaro. You can take that to the bank, because GM tried to, and you see what the sales were like.

People trying to make the Camaro a Vette, why not just buy a Vette? I think GM has caught on to something with what we are hearing. When the general public looks at a car lineup and sees Vette, and Vette Jr, what do you think they will buy? Vette, of course. Spend a little more and get the name, more showroom HP and styling. You make the next Camaro Vette Jr, and this is what will happen. GM is smarter than that, and aren't going to make Vette Jrs. They are going to offer something that is different.

It's nice if you don't like retro. Great. More power to you. It'll be nice to hear the arguements when 2005 Mustang sells 200k+ units it's first year. More power to you.

But what you don't get is: YOU DON'T GET ANY SAY ANYMORE!!!!!!!! It's already too far along. Just say you don't like it and buy a Vette. You aren't going to get Vette Jr.

It's ovah!

Wow, you've got it all figured out huh?! :thumb: The M*stang having way more space in the back seats is new to me. When I was in an 02 it certainly didn't seem like it. ;) You neglect that MANY people want the Camaro to be what it was for ALL those years. Even though some complained about certain features, most would like it to stay as sporty as always. It is a more direct and purpose built performance car than the F*rd. If it was made slightly higher, they reduced the doors, (not necessary IMO) reduced it's overall size a little, lessen the windshield rake some, and if useable space was improved, you can bet that every person would rather have the sporty Camaro look and feel over the sedan-like M*stang in the 5th Gen. And we'll see how much the retro car sells. :) Could be good, (at first anyway, as always is the case with retro) could be lousy after a while. The 4th Gen didn't sell for many reasons, you can't hold those 2 things you mentioned accountable.

Originally posted by It's Cochese!
:lol:

Evolutionary? At what point do we start buying cars that look like a V and are ten inches tall?

Obviously you are exagerating, but the lower, more streamline look has literally evolved through the generations of Camaro.


Face it: the biggest complaints from everyday America (the people who are going to ACTUALLY buy the car IN NUMBERS) were the hood was too long and low, the rear seats were barely useable.

Two areas where the Mustang CLEARLY had the Camaro beat, and I believe it paid off in sales numbers.

No... it was that the DASH was too long. A big difference when you say the HOOD was too long. And the back seat, while an issue, is no worse than a Mustang's back seat. Sit in them and see. I have.


You guys can have your 'evolutionary' Corvette-like F5 if you want to, but leave me out of it. Why? Because we'd get it back for a few years, and you'd have the same result: 40k+odd units and it'd die again. If that's what you want, if heritage cues (retro for you Ted Nugent types) are too much for you, feel free to have it whatever way you want, because I won't buy it.

Neither will more buyers than it had in the last 5 years.


You must be forgetting all the other reaosns why Camaro died. No Marketing. Lack of styling updates over 10 years. Poor build quality relative to other vehicles in the same showroom. The bad business plan that has the car being built at a plant with a 250,000+ per year annual capacity, leaving the plant underutilized, even if Camaro and Firebird had sold 200,000 units every year. And a host of other things.


It's great that a vette-like F5 is more your style, but you have to admit you are in the minority when it comes to mainstream America, which is where GM is going to market this vehicle. The American public just simply isn't going to buy an anti-SUV, a California concept Camaro. You can take that to the bank, because GM tried to, and you see what the sales were like.


And with the proper platform, and GM's apparent tendancy to build many cars off a few platforms, thereby catering to 'niche' markets, a new Camaro business plan should be able to be made successful selling 80,000 or so units per year... I assume this, because I do not have any numbers to back me up, but look at all the other lower volume items GM is putting out now and in the near future. Zeta is going ot have a lot of vehicles built off it... that spreads out a lot of costs.

Malibu and Impala cater to "mainstream America"... Camaro doesn't have to compromise to be a success.


People trying to make the Camaro a Vette, why not just buy a Vette? I think GM has caught on to something with what we are hearing. When the general public looks at a car lineup and sees Vette, and Vette Jr, what do you think they will buy? Vette, of course. Spend a little more and get the name, more showroom HP and styling. You make the next Camaro Vette Jr, and this is what will happen. GM is smarter than that, and aren't going to make Vette Jrs. They are going to offer something that is different.


A Corvette costs DOUBLE what a Camaro does, and does not have a back seat. End of story... this is a horrible arguement to even make.


It's nice if you don't like retro. Great. More power to you. It'll be nice to hear the arguements when 2005 Mustang sells 200k+ units it's first year. More power to you.


200,000? Maybe... I doubt it, but I wont say it's impossible... the more important question is how long will sales stay high. Any new car, especially a car wearing a nameplate like Mustang, is going ot sell like mad when it is re-done.


But what you don't get is: YOU DON'T GET ANY SAY ANYMORE!!!!!!!! It's already too far along. Just say you don't like it and buy a Vette. You aren't going to get Vette Jr.



I don't understand what this means. I suppose you know everything about the new car, what it looks like, how far along it is, have driven it 50,000+ test miles, and even have your favorite color picked out, right? :rolleyes:

It's ovah!

This pretty much sums up everything I read in your post... :think:

...and another point:

I'll agree with you that the F-body isn't as much as an easy vehicle in relation to the Mustang. It is low and sporty (the way I like it). But, Mustang sold so well mainly because of the name, IMO. Little chicks and non-enthusiast types know the name Mustang over Camaro, and that's where the majority of them sold--the V6 with the name...

I think this thread has transcended being hijacked and has officially snowballed out of control.

And I think it's a great ride....

I don't know howmany people here will start liking retro based on how well it sells. If the new 'Stand sell 200K (hell let's say 400K) a year I still won't like it. It's my persoanl stance. I like like new, progressive, bold designs, not a four wheeled 'reset button'.

The short falls of the current platform are not argueable. IMO it too bad more poeple could live with the trade off, but hey there other benefits to being in the minority. I strongly believe if the next Camaro follows the design philosophy of the C5 and C6, riase the roof .5 inch, shorten the doors an inch, stretch the wheel base 3-4 inches, and pull in the base of the windsheild while maintaining the A-pillar rake and possibly (gasp!) narrow the width to 3rd gen dimensions (not needed IMO), we'll have a very liveable car with a rakish desgn.

Originally posted by uluz28
...and another point:

I'll agree with you that the F-body isn't as much as an easy vehicle in relation to the Mustang. It is low and sporty (the way I like it). But, Mustang sold so well mainly because of the name, IMO. Little chicks and non-enthusiast types know the name Mustang over Camaro, and that's where the majority of them sold--the V6 with the name...

That's a very valid point. A product's market 'name' or 'brand' is now just as importnat or more important than the product itself in alot of markets.

I actually read this in a design article months ago. it is the opposite in Europe though....

The problem with that SS-based concept is that it looks like the front end hood-line is too low and the car looks too much like a fourth gen!

Originally posted by Darth Xed
Obviously you are exagerating, but the lower, more streamline look has literally evolved through the generations of Camaro.



No... it was that the DASH was too long. A big difference when you say the HOOD was too long. And the back seat, while an issue, is no worse than a Mustang's back seat. Sit in them and see. I have.



You must be forgetting all the other reaosns why Camaro died. No Marketing. Lack of styling updates over 10 years. Poor build quality relative to other vehicles in the same showroom. The bad business plan that has the car being built at a plant with a 250,000+ per year annual capacity, leaving the plant underutilized, even if Camaro and Firebird had sold 200,000 units every year. And a host of other things.



And with the proper platform, and GM's apparent tendancy to build many cars off a few platforms, thereby catering to 'niche' markets, a new Camaro business plan should be able to be made successful selling 80,000 or so units per year... I assume this, because I do not have any numbers to back me up, but look at all the other lower volume items GM is putting out now and in the near future. Zeta is going ot have a lot of vehicles built off it... that spreads out a lot of costs.

Malibu and Impala cater to "mainstream America"... Camaro doesn't have to compromise to be a success.



A Corvette costs DOUBLE what a Camaro does, and does not have a back seat. End of story... this is a horrible arguement to even make.



200,000? Maybe... I doubt it, but I wont say it's impossible... the more important question is how long will sales stay high. Any new car, especially a car wearing a nameplate like Mustang, is going ot sell like mad when it is re-done.



I don't understand what this means. I suppose you know everything about the new car, what it looks like, how far along it is, have driven it 50,000+ test miles, and even have your favorite color picked out, right? :rolleyes:



This pretty much sums up everything I read in your post... :think: [/B]

This is exactly what I would have said.

How do you think the Camaro is like the Corvette? The only way they are similar is in performance, nothing else so how is this nearly the same as a Vette? Remeber people who shop for a Vette rarely, if ever, cross-shop for a Camaro.
To blame the short-term demise of the Camaro on styling or body configuration is insane. There were so many factors and I guess people will believe what they want.

As far as the hood argument, I guess you have never seen a 3rg gen. The hood on those is far longer than the 4th gen and the 3rd gen sold very well so that argument is invalid.

Remember, if the car had just "heritage cues" then no one would have a problem, you can be sure of that.

And by the way, if I remember correctly, you don't even own a Camaro and never had, you have an Eclipse...............correct me if I am wrong.

back up at the top where you belong!!:alert:

If GM really does not care what we think then they have the worst business model ever.

Bottom line is that we dont have to buy a Camaro if we do not want it. If it in fact turns out to be retro as the sketches based off people who have seen the car are, then people who do not like that styling will need to make their opinions heard. There can only be one retro generation of the Camaro as basing it off anything but a 1st gen would not seem to make any sense, so we could only hope for something we like in a future model. For the time being I'd be perfectly content spending the $30k on a 1993 GMC Typhoon and about $15k in mods ;). If it turns out to look modern as guion states, then you'll see me sprinting to the nearest dealer to give my kindeys for a down payment.

I wish they'd just build the damn thing, ship ten to my local dealer and i'll prove what I think.

:) :) :)

Originally posted by DAyers
:) :) :)

:lol: You brought this back to say that?

Althought I do like this thread.

Anyone else notice that SS_Sharpshooter hasn't been around much lately? I wonder if his version hit "too-close-to-home" and the General had him taken out. :eek:

Originally posted by jg95z28
Anyone else notice that SS_Sharpshooter hasn't been around much lately? I wonder if his version hit "too-close-to-home" and the General had him taken out. :eek:

You mean sorta like when they abducted GuionM and brainwashed him??? :lol:

wasn't Sharpshooters the Red one a few pages back. I think that one looks killer. The headligths need more of an agressive look but I dunno why but I feel that one is probally the closest out of them all.

Originally posted by Joe K. 96 Zeee!!
You mean sorta like when they abducted GuionM and brainwashed him??? :lol: Exactly like that! :lol:

Nah, I'm still here, although I think I have seen some black Suburbans rolling around home lately. :-) I try not to be too vocal. Besides, I usually see someone else chime in on topics with something so similar to what I was going to say, that I just remain quiet and take it all in .

I visit this board far too often every day... but I can't help myself.

Originally posted by SharpShooter_SS
...Besides, I usually see someone else chime in on topics with something so similar to what I was going to say, that I just remain quiet and take it all in .

I visit this board far too often every day... but I can't help myself.


Here-Here! I know where you are coming from on that front. :thumb:

I have gotten to the point where I typically hit this board first for cars news, then hit Yahoo or something else for the actual world news... that's screwed-up ain't it?!?! :D

Originally posted by Joe K. 96 Zeee!!
You mean sorta like when they abducted GuionM and brainwashed him??? :lol:

I wasn't brainwashed. They implanted that damn chip in my brain like they did to Cartman on that South Park episode.

Anytime I mention classified Camaro info, I get zapped.

At least I didn't have that implanted retractable satellite dish that Cartman had to deal with in another episode. :eek:

Originally posted by uluz28
...and another point:

I'll agree with you that the F-body isn't as much as an easy vehicle in relation to the Mustang. It is low and sporty (the way I like it). But, Mustang sold so well mainly because of the name, IMO. Little chicks and non-enthusiast types know the name Mustang over Camaro, and that's where the majority of them sold--the V6 with the name...

You couldnt be more right, when ever i tell someone that i drive a camaro they automatically think i drive an IROC or something. I tell them no a 98 SS...and all they do is:confused: I didnt know they made them in the 90's? Mustang is so well known its crazy, and everyone and there brother thinks that they are the fastest cars just beacause it is a mustang. GM needs to advertise the 5th gen like crazy when it comes out and make quite a few mustang references to beat it. Gm f*cked up the last 10 years without putting the name out there so even when it does come back, no one is going to know what a camaro is.

Originally posted by ProudPony
Here-Here! I know where you are coming from on that front. :thumb:

I have gotten to the point where I typically hit this board first for cars news, then hit Yahoo or something else for the actual world news... that's screwed-up ain't it?!?! :D Dang! I'm guilty of that myself! :D

Originally posted by LT-14me
You couldnt be more right, when ever i tell someone that i drive a camaro they automatically think i drive an IROC or something. I tell them no a 98 SS...and all they do is:confused: I didnt know they made them in the 90's?

;) :cool: