Working on the Opti solution.

OK. for those of you that want to rid of their opti that are knowledgeable about what needs to be done, please post here.

I was speaking to my boss today and he said he had the extra time to work on some electronics to replace the optispark. What would probably happen is you would still use the opti portion of the optispark but eliminate the destructive high voltage section. This system could be either similar to the SDI or maybe a multi coil setup like the LS1.

Anyone that could supply pertinent information to develop this product will be appreciated. If I can get an idea of what has to happen, he has the capability to design AND build this product in house. He stated price would not be able to be beat.

So.......This just may be our chance to get that fix we have all been waiting for.

Injuneer?? Any other SDI users (besides myself) or people that have knowledge as to what has to be done to make the coil per cylinder systems, please contact me or reply here.

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1994 Z28 A4, Vortech, Flowmaster, TPIS 52 mm TB, Hooker LT's, LS1 brakes, AAM 3.42 rear, more.

I guess it would look something like this:

http://cjcfo.fbody.com/members/injuneerzz@aol.com/Photos/Coils01.jpg



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Fred
94 Formula A3: 381/TH400/N2O
Detailed Mod's List (http://members.aol.com/InjuneerZZ/Mod.htm)
11.513@115.59 on motor; 11.162@127.67, 1.643 60' on a 125-shot. Going with a 275-shot this year

Look like that, maybe. But are you still utilizing the STOCK PCM for that?? I think I would probably do an over the valve cover coil setup to make it easier to access and also keep them out of the elements and away from flying road kill.

I want to have an interface built that allows people on a budget to use their stock PCM. If that means using coil packs like the SDI, so be it.

I know you know quite a bit about this so could you fill me in a bit? Pictures don't really tell much; your experience with the design or idea will be much help.

THanks,

Ryan

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1994 Z28 A4, Vortech, Flowmaster, TPIS 52 mm TB, Hooker LT's, LS1 brakes, AAM 3.42 rear, more.

First off I'll state that I know next to nothing about the SDI system, however, I've been thinking about this and at least on the surface of it, it seems like the electronics shouldn't be too complicated.

The PCM knows which cylinder is going to fire next because it sends off a signal to cycle the fuel injector. The PCM fires off the coil, which then goes through the distributor cap to the correct spark plug. Could this "black box" take the information from the fuel injector, take the output from the PCM to fire the coil, and then redirect that coil signal to the correct 1 of 8 coils?

I don't know if that's very clear so I'll give an example using specific cylinders. Lets say the motor is running and cylinder #6 is going to fire next. The PCM cycles the #6 fuel injector and then a short time later the coil fires off. The energy is directed to #6 plug only because the distributor mechanically directs it to #6. Well, the box would take the output of the PCM for the injector and coil. When it "sees" that #6 fuel injector has cycled, it "knows" that #6 coil is up next, so it directs the output from the PCM which would normally fire the single coil so that it fires coil pack #6. The exact timing would need to be determined, since the injector fires on the intake stroke and the coil fires on the compression stroke.

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Hear LT1 cam WAVs, DIY head porting: members.cox.net/gmarengo (http://members.cox.net/gmarengo)

'95, !CAGS, CAI, ForceII, Hooker Shorties, 14.2@103

If the price was right I would be in.

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96' Z28,Artic White, 6spd,T-tops, leather.
Mods: Yeah I got a couple ;)
My Z (http://www.stevenetworks.com/z28/)

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by nuke61:

The PCM knows which cylinder is going to fire next because it sends off a signal to cycle the fuel injector. The PCM fires off the coil, which then goes through the distributor cap to the correct spark plug. Could this "black box" take the information from the fuel injector, take the output from the PCM to fire the coil, and then redirect that coil signal to the correct 1 of 8 coils?

</font>
The stock PCM needs to know the exact postion of the camshaft, so it knows which injector to fire (in a sequential sytem). In the LT1, it only know this because it gets the low res pulse from the Opti. This is the heart of the problem. The stock PCM needs a high and a low resolution pulse to operate.

Electromotive used a crank timing wheel..... then synthesized the low res and high res pulses that would normally come from the Opti. It fed those pulse signals to the stock PCM, which did its normal thing as far as firing the injectors, and sending the signal to the IC module to fire the plugs. E'motive intercepted the spark signal from the PCM, and used it to drive the 4-coil pack.

The whole problem with the E'motive system, and with any system that uses only a crank trigger, is that the PCM doesn't get all the info it needs to fire the injectors and plugs correctly. The crank has to rotate two times before the engine fires all 8 cylinders. With only a crank trigger, the PCM doesn't know which pistons are approaching TDC on the compression stroke, and which ones are approacing TDC on the exhaust stroke.

E'motive solves the spark problem by using one coil to fire two cylinders (so does GM on the V6, and on the Buick GN/GNX) at the same time. One is on the compression stroke, and the plug ignites the mixture and does its "normal" thing. The second cylinder is on the exhaust stroke, so when the plug fires, nothing happens - this is called the "lost spark" method. Works fine for ignition.

Where you get into trouble is with the injectors. On a 93, the E'motive system workd fine... batch fire, one bank at a time.... PCM could care less which cylinders are approacing TDC on compression. Case solved for all 1993's.... install E'motive Opti-Eliminator/SDI.

For the 94 and ups it was a problem.... on 1/2 of the starts, the chip weould synthesize the low res pulse, but then synchronize it 180-degrees out of phase. At low loads, the injectors were firing against closed valves on the power stroke, instead of into open valve on the intake stroke. At WOT/max load, this becomes less significant, since the injectors are open most of the time anyway. Surprisingly, this had little affect on driveability, except for a minor stumble off idle when the engine was ice cold, and the fuel was puddling on the cold valve instead of vaporizing on the hot valve.

All that E'motive needed to do to make the O-E/SDI work was provide a correct "synch" signal for the low res pulse. That could have been accomplished by using just the low res pulse from a working Opti, or by adding a cam positions sensor in place of the Opti. They knew this, took the system out of production to solve the problems.

There was also a problem that something in the O-E/SDI system prevented it from working with OBD-II. Someone had done an O-E/SDI install on an OBD-II Impala SS, and E'motive ended up installing a complete TEC-2 system for the guy to make it work. The TEC=2 could live with the out-of-phase injectors, because it was NOT a true sequential injection.... it fired two injectors at once, an a sort of "semi-batch fire" system.

The engineer at E'motive ("JC") felt he could solve the problems. I was there once and he showed mt the 1996 Z28 he had bought with is own money to use as the test mule. He wanted to work on it, but E'motive had other plans, and other products, and never gave him the time or the resources to solve the problems on the O-E/SDI. The fact that they claim to have an O-E interface to the new TEC-3 system leads me to believe he eventually solved the problems. Somebody ought to contact E'motive and see where they are with that system.
--------------------
Ryan:

No, my current 8-coil system does not use the stock PCM, and would be a god-awful expensive solution if you tried to use it only as an ignition system.

You prefer mounting the coils on top, and then using "over the top" wiring. That would look like this - my E'motive O-E/SDI with Taylor 409 wires:

http://members.aol.com/InjuneerZZ/images/Photos/eng02.jpg

http://members.aol.com/InjuneerZZ/images/Photos/eng01.jpg

http://members.aol.com/InjuneerZZ/images/Photos/sdi01.jpg

Fred


[This message has been edited by Injuneer 94FormM6 (edited June 03, 2002).]

Fred:

A guy I talked to said he figured the problem out for the sequential fire. He only used the OE as an "extension cord" to feed the crank trigger signal to the SDI. He left the optical portion of the optispark hooked up and that is what ran the computer. He stated as long as the crank trigger was timed properly it worked great. Until he actually got it timed correctly, he said the PCM would throw a code because it was confused.

All he did was left the plug on the right side of the intake untouched. The PCM got the high and low res pulses it wanted and was still able to control timing and retard. The SDI was happy because it was using the crank trigger to get its spark going. He told me he had run this system for the past 4 years on the street with no problems. Seems his solution was quite simple; have you heard anything about doing this??

Ryan

This has been one of the most talked about mods in this section so I'll post some links and pics from what I think is the best way to rid of the opti. It's a little pricey though.

Here's the pics if using a crank trigger and a cam sensor: http://www.nedyno.com/contest.htm


Here's the thread:
http://web.camaross.com/bb/Forum30/HTML/000602.html

That's a nice setup but the point of what I am going to do is to make something that uses the stock PCM -AND- is reasonably priced so more people can afford it. What will be built WILL be a pretty much plug and play deal that any person with even minor mechanical knowledge will be able to install in an afternoon. I don't want any crazy rewiring to be done; just unplug factory connectors and plug the module in.

The stock PCM needs to know the exact postion of the camshaft, so it knows which injector to fire (in a sequential sytem). In the LT1, it only know this because it gets the low res pulse from the Opti. This is the heart of the problem. The stock PCM needs a high and a low resolution pulse to operate.

Right, and as I understand it, the whole point of Ryan's post is to use the stock PCM and create an add-on black box to supplement the PCM/Opti. The purpose of the black box would be to direct the "fire" signal that would normally go to the single stock coil and direct it to the correct 1 of 8 coils. All the information to do this is already available with the stock Opti and PCM. What I'm talking about would only move the high voltage out of the Opti -- and as I understand it, that is commonly believed to be the biggest problem with the Opti.

If I understand what you've said, the information to fire cycle the injector comes from the Opti itself. If that's so, the box would take that information and fire the correct coil when it "sees" the signal to fire the coil -- except that it would direct the signal to the coil that matches the injector number based on information it receives from the Opti.


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Hear LT1 cam WAVs, DIY head porting: members.cox.net/gmarengo (http://members.cox.net/gmarengo)

'95, !CAGS, CAI, ForceII, Hooker Shorties, 14.2@103

I guess it comes down to the reliability of the Opti. I obviously believe the optical section is reliable, and more reliable when you remove the high voltage functions from the front of the case. I use the Opti exactly that way to drive the 8 LS1 coils. And George Baxter has used the same setup for 4 years on his 9-second 30th SS Convert.

However, neither my car or George's can be considered a "daily driver". My car seldom sees the rain, has been averaging only 2,000 miles per year for the last couple of years. And I started 2 years ago with a brand new, vented Opti conversion.

I think the solution needs to address the concerns of the average 93-97 owner, and that is a system that will easilly handle the rigors of 12-15,000 miles a year, in a true daily driver.... one that is routinely driven in inclement weather, goes through car washes, etc.

My preference for a daily driver would be to get away from the Opti all together. Or, to have a much more robust housing for the Opti. I would think a case with better seals - both external, and internal between high voltage and optical sections - and a true roller bearing in place of the cheapie friction bearing would go a long way to solving the problems.

When the Opti system was introduced, GM made a lot out of the improved accuracy of the ignition timing and the benefits of reduced spark scatter on reducing emissions. They published SAE papers on the system. The value is there... the concept was not all that bad, its just the "execution" that sucked.... using cheap materials, and a questionable location.

I wonder if the Chrysler/Mitsubishi 3.0L V6's from the late 1980's suffered the same fate as the LT1. They used the same concept.... they just had the common sense to leave the system in the "conventional" location on the top of the engine. I suspect GM simply copied the concept, and then screwed it up with location of the unit. But if you think about it, eliminating the gear drive of a conventional distributor eliminates one more source of timing "slop". The fact that the optical sensor carries the Mitsubishi 3-diamond logo would tned to confirm it is no an "original" GM thought.

Nuke:

I guess I misunderstood your original post... I didn't realize you were starting with the premise that the optical signal from the Opti would still be used. And to clarify, the pulse data from the Opti is used by the PCM to develop the ignition and injection timing... there is no direct connection from the Opti to either the fuel or ignition system.... it is simply providing cam and (psuedo) crank position info. If you think about it, as good as the cam position data is, the crank position data is sort of weak, in that the slack of the timing set is in between.

Fred


[This message has been edited by Injuneer 94FormM6 (edited June 04, 2002).]

Ryan, did you actually read the thread in the above link? Apparently not. Check my post on page 2. Don't really understand what your dilemma is. It's only $400 plus coils and coil mounting on valve covers preferably. If you want/need details, email me.

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I'll be back

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by arnie:
Ryan, did you actually read the thread in the above link? Apparently not. Check my post on page 2. Don't really understand what your dilemma is. It's only $400 plus coils and coil mounting on valve covers preferably. If you want/need details, email me.

</font>

From your referenced post:

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Is anyone aware of another setup to convert the LS1 CNP, 8 coil ignition to an LT1? It's compatible with oem pcm or (at least)a Fast ecm? Save for the coil mounting, it's a plug-n-play setup. Retains the optispark for the high-low resolution signal only. $400. (coils/mounting. extra) </font>

So, what is the "setup"? Does it work with the "oem pcm" or doesn't it? Ryan is looking for something that works with the stock pcm, not a FAST or a MoTeC (big $$$$$).

Fred

Arnie:

Sorry for my ignorance. I have 10 of the $400 setups you are talking about sold. When can you ship?

Goal:
1.Keep the optispark high and low resolution signals going to PCM.
2.Remove the high voltage parts of the optispark, the factory coil, and ignition coil module.
3.Use the ignition control signal (PCM C2 pin 5)to control the black box's timing for the each cylinder.
4.The black box will have drivers for the 8 coils it provides primary voltage to.
5.And possibly need a way of identifying which coil to fire.(injector signals)

Questions:
1.How can the black box know which of the 8 coils to fire using the PCM?
2.Can it decide which coil to fire with just the information from the ignition control signal?
3.Could the fuel injector signals provide the black box with the signal needed to know which coil to fire and then use the ignition control signal to fire the coil at the correct time?

Conclusion: If it would be possible to use the ignition control signal and fuel injector signals, from the PCM, to make a decision in a black box. Then decide which coil to fire and when to fire it. We could have a reliable system. Also a new sealed housing for the optispark's reader head and encoder disk would be nice too. I think the electronics of the black box would not bad at all.

I believe this is about the same as Nuke's idea earlier in the post. I hope someone can answer my questions. Thanks for your time.

It's only $400 plus coils and coil mounting on valve covers preferably. If you want/need details, email me.

While it's still the least expensive alternative to the Opti, the last post that Dean77 made said "Havent really priced the setup yet," and additionally, that price doesn't include the FAST computer, right?

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Hear LT1 cam WAVs, DIY head porting: members.cox.net/gmarengo (http://members.cox.net/gmarengo)

'95, !CAGS, CAI, ForceII, Hooker Shorties, 14.2@103

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">So, what is the "setup"? Does it work with the "oem pcm" or doesn't it? Ryan is looking for something that works with the stock pcm, not a FAST or a MoTeC (big $$$).</font>

Hi Fred- You've asked a ? of someone with utmost respect for your input/knowledge of subjects you respond to on this forum. To help answer your ? I'll quote myself.
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">it's compatible with oem pcm or (at least)a Fast ecm?</font> Yes, designed to work with oem pcm. It also works with an aftermarket ecm. Maybe others, but at least the Fast/Speedpro that I am aware of.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Sorry for my ignorance. I have 10 of the $400 setups you are talking about sold. When can you ship?

Ryan, when can (I) ship? No, not me. I'm not that sharp to design something like this. http://web.camaross.com/bb/smile.gif I was just fortunate enuf to be pointed in the right direction by people on another 'list'. My feeble brain isn't positive of the email address to contact the entrepreneur/ engineer Bob Bailey. So, rather than correct an incorrect address later, I'll repost later when I can be sure. (soon)

[QUOTE]Goal:
1.Keep the optispark high and low resolution signals going to PCM.
2.Remove the high voltage parts of the spark, the factory coil, and ignition coil module.
3.Use the ignition control signal (PCM C2 pin
5 to control the black box's timing for each cylinder.
4.The black box will have drivers for the 8 coils it provides primary voltage to.
5.And possibly need a way of identifying which coil to fire.(injector signals)

Questions:
1.How can the black box know which of the 8 coils to fire using the PCM?
2.Can it decide which coil to fire with just the information from the ignition control signal?
3.Could the fuel injector signals provide the black box with the signal needed to know which coil to fire and then use the ignition control signal to fire the coil at the correct time?</font>

Comments to above goals:
1. Accomplished
2. Accomplished
3. Accomplished
4. Ah, that's a negative. This setup uses the LS1 coils. In the past, they have been labeled as 'smart coils'. One of the reasons they are 'smart' is, I believe they have their own drivers.
5. Accomplished

Answers to questions:
1. I don't know. Maybe Bob will tell you this. Then again, maybe not. http://web.camaross.com/bb/smile.gif
2. With the help of the 'black box', yes.
3. Maybe in another type of setup, but not this one.

To reiterate: $400 supplies the module and wiring harness. You supply the coils and the means to mount the coils. I chose to mount them on the valve covers, which is preferred. I used the coil mounting brkts. from the '99-'00 LS1 vette/camaro, with some tweaking in one area to fit real nice on the LT1 cover, plus installing studs in covers.) Others have used just a flat plate. There is a story behind the reason for not including the coil mounting brkts, but it's not relevant. Later


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I'll be back

Anyone else have any answers to my questions? Thanks for the reply Arnie.

Its almost embarassing to admit I don't know how my own system works.... The MoTeC IEX 8-channel ignition "expander", a $325 item, essentially takes the single stream from the ECU and breaks it down into 8 channels of information....

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Ignition Expander

The MoTeC Ignition Expander enhances the ignition control capability of any MoTeC ECU . The MoTeC IEX will allow a single MoTeC ECU output to control up to 8 individual coil drivers. Twin Expanders may be used to control engines with more than 8 coils. The signal is sent from the Ignition output on the ECU to the input on the Expander. The Expander then breaks that signal from the ECU into the proper number of outputs and distributes them to the correct channel on the Expander connector. From here the signal can be sent to an ignitor to fire the coil. </font>

That is what I use for my LS1 coils.

I guess I have to dig into the IEX and see what exactly is wired from the ECU, besides the single ignition data stream (which would normally be used to fire a single coil, if the IEX isn't there). I have the wiring diagram for the ECU, but I never got one for the IEX... it just got plugged into the ECU, and wired to the coils??????? What additional info does the IEX need to "break that signal from the ECU into the proper number of outputs and distributes them to the correct channel"? I would think it needs the cam position data.

MoTeC also makes the CDI/8, a stand-alone 8-channel capacitive discharge system driver, but that unit clearly requires either Hall effect or optical crank and cam position data (but it costs $2,430....).

Fred

For those interested, BB's email is bob@bailey-eng.com

Oh, and no, there is no incentive for me to give Bob the positive print. I just believe his 'LTCC' is worth the effort to inform and notify the forum about.

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I'll be back

[This message has been edited by arnie (edited June 05, 2002).]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Injuneer 94FormM6:
and wired to the coils??????? What additional info does the IEX need to "break that signal from the ECU into the proper number of outputs and distributes them to the correct channel"? I would think it needs the cam position data.

Fred[/B]</font>

The only thing I would need to implement it is a way to initially sync to a particular cylinder since firing order is known. The easy way would be using the leading edge of the #1 injector's PW (or any of the others).

Outside of that, Crank sensor if it didn't mind firing two coils at once. Cam pos sensor otherwise.



[This message has been edited by Luna (edited June 06, 2002).]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by kclarson:
Goal:
1.Keep the optispark high and low resolution signals going to PCM.
2.Remove the high voltage parts of the optispark, the factory coil, and ignition coil module.
3.Use the ignition control signal (PCM C2 pin 5)to control the black box's timing for the each cylinder.
4.The black box will have drivers for the 8 coils it provides primary voltage to.
5.And possibly need a way of identifying which coil to fire.(injector signals)

Questions:
1.How can the black box know which of the 8 coils to fire using the PCM?
2.Can it decide which coil to fire with just the information from the ignition control signal?
3.Could the fuel injector signals provide the black box with the signal needed to know which coil to fire and then use the ignition control signal to fire the coil at the correct time?

Conclusion: If it would be possible to use the ignition control signal and fuel injector signals, from the PCM, to make a decision in a black box. Then decide which coil to fire and when to fire it. We could have a reliable system. Also a new sealed housing for the optispark's reader head and encoder disk would be nice too. I think the electronics of the black box would not bad at all.

I believe this is about the same as Nuke's idea earlier in the post. I hope someone can answer my questions. Thanks for your time.

</font>

If the opti sensors output is utilized, the coil firing is trivial.

If you put a optispark on a logic analyzer's low and high rez lines, you will see that a reference to location in the 4 stroke cycle can be determined easily (hint: the disk has different size slots for the low rez sensor). The low rez is called 'reference' for a reason. The high rez just acts like tick marks on a ruler and increase resolution.

Using this info I can produce the firing order and let the pcm do the timing adjustment and injector work.


Personally,I don't mind the distibutor section. I just want to get rid of the POS sensor, well actually I want to move it to a place that is easier to deal with http://web.camaross.com/bb/smile.gif

Luna,

I agree that using the optispark signals you can produce the information needed to determine firing order and injector work (the PCM uses this information to control ignition and injectors, already).

1. How can output signals(ignition control signal and injector signals) from the factory PCM be used to control a capacitive discharge ignition system with 8 coils(to remove the high voltage parts from the optispark)??
2. You say that you like the distributor section but don't like the pos sensor. I think the position section of the optispark is the best part, because it has the high resolution no other ignition system has.
3. Can we use the ignition control signal and tap into the optispark high and low resolution signals to control a black box which controls the 8 coils?
3. Can you be more specific and descriptive of your proposed solution?

Thanks for the feedback Luna!

I would second the opinion on the optical section of the Opti being the best part. Kept clean, and assuming the bearing holds up, it should last forever. The high resolution from the 360 slots on the wheel would seem to offer a more useful signal than the system that relies on a single magnet attached to the cam (edited) sprocket, at least in terms of timing accuracy and repeatability.

On the other hand, the high voltage section is going to wear out like any other cap and rotor. The DIS systems eliminate this problem completely.

I think that the black box simply needs to know which coil to switch the spark signal to... essentially a "router". And the address is defined by the info from the low res pulse sequence. That capability existed in the Electromotive SDI controller, since it received only the single stream of data from the stock PCM spark signal wire, and the crank position data from the toothed wheel/sensor on the crank pulley.

The MoTeC IEX does exactly that also. The only difference is that the low res "reference" pulse is translated into "MoTeC" reference signal before it enters the processor, and then the processor appears to feed the reference pulse to the IEX unit. I need to confirm that though. The first thing I found when I was going through the notebook they keep at Second Street was the info on the low resolution pulse width pattern, and how it is used in the MoTeC, so I think I need to pick some brains.

Another unit to look at would be the Ford eDIS unit (not to be confused with the FAST EDIST), which appears to be the way Ford gets their PCM to control multiple coils.

Fred

[This message has been edited by Injuneer 94FormM6 (edited June 07, 2002).]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by kclarson:
Luna,

I agree that using the optispark signals you can produce the information needed to determine firing order and injector work (the PCM uses this information to control ignition and injectors, already).

1. How can output signals(ignition control signal and injector signals) from the factory PCM be used to control a capacitive discharge ignition system with 8 coils(to remove the high voltage parts from the optispark)??
2. You say that you like the distributor section but don't like the pos sensor. I think the position section of the optispark is the best part, because it has the high resolution no other ignition system has.
3. Can we use the ignition control signal and tap into the optispark high and low resolution signals to control a black box which controls the 8 coils?
3. Can you be more specific and descriptive of your proposed solution?

Thanks for the feedback Luna!

</font>

Since we have a chiken and the egg sort of situation, I would use the low rez line to sync and forget the inj info (no inj info if no optical section data, so lets just use it.)

1: Given the firing order and a tap into the injector signal(this may be skewed a little since off the top of my head)

Injector
firing
1 &lt;-Sync #coil1 fires 6
8 #coil2 fires 5
4 #coil3 fires 7
3 #coil4 fires 2
6 #coil5 fires 1
5 #coil6 fires 8
7 #coil7 fires 4
2 #coil8 fires 3

I'd use a microcontroller personally but could use a demux/adder to make it work. To sync the circuit, you know that #1 inj will fire during the intake stoke and that would place #6 at compression stoke(iirc) and shoud get the next spark. With a little finagling, the leading edge of the #1 can be used to establish sync. After than the coils fire sequentially with no concern of the inj pulse. The problem is that the inj pw varies so it may take a while to sync properly. After syncing, you there will be no problem. I would rather use the optical section though for syncing faster

2) I just don't like having a sensor that can't be replaced without yanking off the front of the engine. The optical section is well engineered but the location is plain sucky. A critical component in a volatile location with horrible access. That is my complaint. (can't you tell what I will be doing this weekend http://web.camaross.com/bb/smile.gif )

3) Yes that is what I was recommending (and that is all that is being done by the aftermarket) Unfortunately, I think the problem for most daily drivers is not the ditributor, its the cam position sensor malfunction. It would be a non issue if the optical section could be replaced in half an hour for 40 bucks (or just cleaned even). If this sucker goes out (ususally crud in the vacuum line or shot water pump) you have to yank it all. The black box approach offers no solution for the major problem. Without the optical section, nothing else will work unless you rig up a crank wheel.


Fred,
The last opti I took apart, the heads of the screws holding the disc to the drive were broken off. Weird huh?

-CAL

[This message has been edited by Luna (edited June 07, 2002).]

I have a friend that CNC machines aluminum. I am going to see if he could set up a program to CNC me a cover for the Opti. It would involve removing the cap and replacing it with his part. It would be grooved for an O ring so it would be perfectly sealed.

Correct me if I am wrong here, but isn't water in the opti only directly affecting the high voltage section? Kind of like getting water in your distributor cap? That, in turn, would end up causing rust in the bearings which is also accelerated by the ozone created by the high voltage section. I think if we just get the high voltage part out of the opti it will be nearly bulletproof. I further think that if I can get some aluminum covers machined the problem will be completely solved as we will then have a totally sealed unit.

Someone please verify if my suspicion to the opti failure is really due to water getting in the high voltage section. The optical pickup is a "sealed" part so the only thing I see happening is the bearing failing or rust getting in the way of the optical pickup portion.

Ryan

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Luna:
Fred,
The last opti I took apart, the heads of the screws holding the disc to the drive were broken off. Weird huh?

-CAL
</font>

The opti's I have pulled apart, and its only a few, have suffered from either the optical section being blinded by rust particles, or the high voltage section developing tracking or burned contacts. I believe that the instances are sort of 2/3 high voltage and 1/3 optical, but that's just my personal experience on a few units. I think in my 94 unvented unit, the disc was tack-welded to the backing plate, not screwed. It could not be removed from the backing plate without damaging it. I think the screws were added in the vented models.

Mine failed from rust blinding. The high voltage section was absolutely like new at 50K miles. No sign of tracking, moisture, burned contacts, etc.

The rust in the optical section comes from the parts behind the optical disc. The flat surface that supports the disc, and the bearing retainer. The rust could easily be eliminated if these parts were made out of stainless steel. If you look at the pictures of Mike Chaney's Opti Disection page, even his vented unit appears to have suffered from "high water" level, as evidenced by the rust marks in the bottom of the casing. My 94 had the same signs of liquid accumulation in the rear section, but not in the high voltage section. I never had a water pump leak, and never got any kind of moisture within 5 feet of the engine, except whatevere came up form the road.

Appears the ideal solution would be a billet case, o-ring seals, a roller bearing in place of the friction bearing, and stainless steel construction of the internals. Without using the high voltage section, its conceivable that the front cover could be split, and access to the optical sensor made possible without removing too much else. That would not solve your problem with the broken screws, and that is actually the first time I've even heard off that problem.

I also like the MSD CPC "plug" approach, but that unit would be as hard to remove as an Opti, being under the cowl... maybe harder - pull the engine???? That unit would also introduce more slop because of the gear drive on the back end of the cam.

It will be interesting to see how long my "optical only" Opti lasts. George has had his working for at least 4 years. But his car and mine are not really daily drivers, nor do they accumulate appreciable mileage, and do not subject these parts to any sort of "real world" test.

Fred


[This message has been edited by Injuneer 94FormM6 (edited June 07, 2002).]

Ryan, the optical part isn't so sealed. Pourwater around the almost vertical plug of the opti and water will stand. Since there is a slight vacuum, it will get sucked in. The weather pack just isn't tight enough.

Fred, the bolt shearing seem to be caused by the failure of the vacuum harness and its oneway valve/resrictors(or the two tubes connected at the same source like a few blower installs do- They need a pressure gradient to be safe).
The surface area that the vacuum is applied to creates a big piston and a strong force against the components. I've heard of a few blown cars having the same problem.

This unit I have to take out is still under the 12mth GM warr. so I don't think I will take it down but I would like to!

-CAL

I have a 1995 Trans Am I am parting out. The opti cap is shattered due to the car hitting a tree at about 100 mph; I will have an opti I can take apart and inspect. I will see what you are talking about and see what can be done to address the moisture problem. Maybe I can get him to CNC the whole housing and a cover that the parts could go in.

Who knows. Maybe we can make something that works afterall..... It's worth a try. I really want to make something on a budget that we can afford as I am not rich.... I have 4 LT1's right now and would be willing to convert every one.

Ryan

Guys,

I like the idea of a CNC machined housing with roller bearings, o-ring seals, and stainless parts. A beefed up optispark could be the best solution.

Courtney

BTW Fred. I have three 95 Opti's here and they all have failed Ball bearings in them. The biggest problem seems to be they are not lubricated other then the Life time lube they recive at the factory and the life time lube does not last a life time http://web.camaross.com/bb/wink.gif

This appeared to be the reason all three died on the three cars they came off.

just thought I would add some info for you

------------------
Ellis
Project "Dementia" now under way!

Am i missing something here?

Why do you all want an alternative? It seems to me like the $400 + whatever the coils cost is a lot when i have the stock opti on my 97' and if it does go a new one is only like $180 from Dal or Cromer...

------------------
Ken Mook
97' SS #2544

Soon to be breathing: ?rwhp & ?rwtq Naturally Asperated on the Stock Bottom End.
Stage 3 Pro Performance Heads, Solid Roller 242/248 Cam, Jesel Shaft Mount Rockers,
Jet Hot Hooker LTs, True Dual 3" Exhaust with x-pipe, and the list goes on and on (http://www.geocities.com/kmook123)...

I don't know about everyone else, but here is why I am doing it:

-More reliable.
-Better performance through hotter spark. (at least at high rpms)
-Easier to change my plug wires
-Don't have to worry about my cap and rotor getting wet in the rain and making my car run like crap.

I am sure there are many more reasons, but there are a few. Sure, it's more expensive than just ONE opti spark. How about 5 years from now?? That could be up to 5 opti sparks. At 175 each, that is $875!! I know that is an extreme number of failed optis but if you figure someone driving a lot of rain, it is VERY feasible.

I'm interested. I only have 34k miles on my 95 Z28 and I'm still on my first optispark. I have a used spare opti with less than 1k miles and am interested none-the-less in this conversion. Does anyone know the cost of the LS1 coil packs? Does anyone have the part numbers? I'd like to check with Jason Cromer on the price. What is the exact application of the coil packs?

Thanks,
Mike

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by kmook:
Am i missing something here?

Why do you all want an alternative? It seems to me like the $400 + whatever the coils cost is a lot when i have the stock opti on my 97' and if it does go a new one is only like $180 from Dal or Cromer...

</font>

180 plus labor. It is the frequency of outage that is the problem. Have you ever priced the cost of an Opti and install at most dealerships?

Of course I won't let the dealer touch my setup since they would find a way to screw up my blower. I assume the solution is meant for everyone, not just use.

-CAL

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Does anyone know the cost of the LS1 coil packs? Does anyone have the part numbers? I'd like to check with Jason Cromer on the price. What is the exact application of the coil packs?</font>

'98-'02 vette/camaro LS1 coil #12558948 @29.86 from gmpartsdirect. with shpg./hdlg. came to about $287. I also used the '99-'00 coil brkt. #12562864 with minor bending in 1 area to mount on valve covers.

Edit/add: Some prefer to mount coils on a generic flat plate.


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I'll be back

[This message has been edited by arnie (edited June 11, 2002).]

[This message has been edited by arnie (edited June 11, 2002).]

I know someone else said they're looking into getting an aluminum cover made to replace the cap on the Opti, but I'm working with someone right now on a solution. I know one thing for sure, it's going to be badass, and it's going to be more than just a "cap". I will post pictures of it when it's done.

I'm curious how many others would be interested in one of these.

I may be interested in maybe trying this out, I'm getting ready to do two opti's here in the next couple of weeks so lets see what you've got.
Arnie, also interested in the details of your setup, you have mail.

Curt:

How much will this be??

Actually, since it seems there are some other people in this post that act like they are way farther than me, I will gracefully bow out and let them take over this post.

I am not in this to compete with people as to who gets it made first. I was asking for knowledge in this post; not others saying "yeah, we are thinking of doing that too." If I wanted those responses, I would have posted this in the Lounge.

Anyway, Curt seems to really want to help out so lets see what he has. What kind of progress have you made on this housing you speak of? When will it be available? Arnie's person already has the other part built so I would say to have a truly bulletproof system, we are only waiting on Curt. I have talked with Arnie's guy and I am going to buy a few of these systems myself. If they are what I was looking at having built (I am sure they are) I will no longer pursue this as it has already been done. However, Curt: Please give us an ETA on when you will be done with these housings and give us an estimate on what they will cost. I am sure many people want to know.

Ryan

I recieved a status e-mail tonight -- preliminary drawings are done, and should be machined within the next week or two. The guy who's doing it is a really busy and with the exceptional work he does, I'm not going to be the one to push him to get it done faster http://web.camaross.com/bb/biggrin.gif

He's also looking at pressing the shaft out of the housing, hopefully without destroying it, in the hopes that the base housing can be improved upon, or at least verified to the build quality.

No idea on what the final cost will be yet -- it will depend on the materials involved, time to machine and time to assemble. The target is to keep it under $100.

Cool, Curt. Keep us posted on the progress of this. If your guy gets this done, the other part is done. That would mean a pretty sweet ignition system.

I am going to wait it out as I don't want to be doing something that is already done or near completion.

Thanks for the update.

Wow, glad to see a replacement for the Opti finally coming about.

Great work guys http://web.camaross.com/bb/smile.gif

Another update:
Opti has been completely taken apart. The shaft is hardened, and rides on a single Japanese made sealed bearing. There is a concern about the quality of the bearing and is being investigated. If the bearing isn't up to par, then a suitable replacment will have to be found.

The drawings have been finalized, and will be machined soon. The cover will replace the standard cap, and a support ring will replace the rotor. On the inside of the cover will be an additional bearing so the shaft will be supported on both ends.

So far the biggest problem is the cost of the materials to make it. Once one has been made, we should be able to get a final cost.

Curt I don't see how this is going to work. I've never seen a metal distributor cap, have you? How will you control spark to each terminal? If the cap is made out of metal won't it just spark inside like crazy? Maybe I'm not getting something, but your plan does sound interesting.

I found another way to fix the optis that happen to go south due to possible water leakage.

1) Buy from Sam Smith- he will warranty it! Though I bought second one to have on hand , he put a label in the box for the return of the old one.

(I'm getting good at this-one hour not including the time to put car in the air and fussing at people putting **** back where is it is supposed to be). Had I not had to take off the intercooler piping and junk, even better. BTW, air tools rock.

2) Finally took off the bad on on mine that I put on in Feb. Had usua signs of buildup on the cap and rotor. Disk was clean but had crap in the terminal area.

This leads me to believe it is time to fashion a 'condom' of sorts to protect the opti at harness connector site. With even a little bit of water/antifreeze in the area, there is enough vacuum from the breather system to suck the moisture past the weather pack. I will try to first us heat shrink tubing but leave a skirt at the bottom to help divert any water away. A different (and cheaper) connector will probably help out more, it is pisspoor engineering to put such a critical sensor and connector where gravity will put water right into the guts. Just ask a civil engineer about how water flows down hill (j/k)

Second, I will hook up the vacuum harness back like it was when stock regardless of what ATI tells you too. I think this is a big reason for failure. You need a pressure gradient, and you cannot vent to atmophere...

Any other ideas

-CAL

There is a solution being done...It is being tested right now was installed 1 1/2 months ago on a LT1 Camaro.When it's all tested and done I will tell you all who too contact.NO MORE OPTI....I have a TEC II mind you , But My shop is working on the Optiless Solution.Also FYI TEC 3 NO GOOD for 8, ok for 4 and 6 .But 8 has REAL PROBLEMS .Should be soon.I will try too get a price for you all and what it entails if they will let me.

------------------
lil Japanese car BIG American motor
www.speakeasy.net/~lt1240z

Luna if you put those vacuum lines back make sure the one way valves are hooked up correctly and make sure they can handle the boost. If not you'll be boosting hot air back into the opti, been there done that and it will fry up the opti.

LT1240Z- Have you tried the new tec 3 out yet? I almost got one of those. I just sold my tec 2 for a killer price ($750) already setup to work for the LT1 including plug wires and such.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by BigRick:
Luna if you put those vacuum lines back make sure the one way valves are hooked up correctly and make sure they can handle the boost. If not you'll be boosting hot air back into the opti, been there done that and it will fry up the opti.
</font>

What was your final remedy?

When the " Engineers @ Electromotive Say stay away "Then what can you say: Tec 3 bad news for 8cyl .4 or 6 ok.

------------------
lil Japanese car BIG American motor
www.speakeasy.net/~lt1240z

Late to the party, I know. I don't get 'over here' very often.

I am making the LTCC optispark eliminator that Arnie has. It is a mature product to run the LS1 coils from the opti signals.

The conversion is pricy when buying new coils, I have heard of some surplus coils "out there somewhere" though.

The unit adds a couple of functions that you would have to buy separately. so there is extra value in the unit.

1- it has a 2-step rev limiter
2- it has an adjustable retard for n20, turbo, or SC.

Just wanted to drop my .02 in the conversation. I have been running this system on my 1996 turboed impala for about 1.5 years, no problems. I never even capped the plug-wire towers ont he opti cap. My car is NOT a fair-weather only driver, so I believe that this system has stretched the useful life of my opti even though I haven't done anything to the vents.

I hope this adds some data to the conversation. Any questions, I'll try to check into this thread every couple days.

TurboBob

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by TurboBob:
....I have been running this system on my 1996 turboed impala for about 1.5 years, no problems. I never even capped the plug-wire towers ont he opti cap. My car is NOT a fair-weather only driver, so I believe that this system has stretched the useful life of my opti even though I haven't done anything to the vents.

</font>

Getting the high voltage out of there seems to make a difference. I am still concerned about the rust that forms in the back around the bearing retainer. But, maybe the ozone from the HV discharge is what promotes the corrosion. I have 2 years on mine without the HV section, only about 5,000 miles total, but there has been some wet weather driving. George Baxter had about 4 years of operation on his, but has since sold the engine... I would suspect he put as much as 15K miles on it, and of course some heavy track use, and the system never showed any kind of problems. I'm not even sure what he did with the vent system, considering he was running close to 20# boost. I just have mine hooked up like OEM.

Getting a "black box" that is cheaper than a MoTeC or a FAST will make is a lot more attractive for the average user.

Fred

Any ideas on how to keep the rust from forming? I'm installing an Opti soon and was wondering if there's stuff I can do to try and increase its longevity.

------------------
Hear LT1 cam WAVs, DIY head porting: members.cox.net/gmarengo (http://members.cox.net/gmarengo)

'95, !CAGS, CAI, ForceII, Hooker Shorties, 14.2@103

The cap has been machined and should be shipped to me this week. I have two pictures of it, although they're not the best quality. When it gets here, I'll take more pictures of it. Let me know what you think.

Picture 1 (http://www.geek-racing.com/curt/SDI/opti3.jpg)
Picture 2 (http://www.geek-racing.com/curt/SDI/opti1.jpg)

Looks great, Curt. Let me know when I can get my hands on one of these as I am putting an engine together for the wife's Vert and would like to do this right from the get go.

Ryan

------------------
1994 Z28 A4, Vortech, Flowmaster, TPIS 52 mm TB, Hooker LT's, LS1 brakes, AAM 3.42 rear, more.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Curt (pres AAMC & ZAA):
The cap has been machined and should be shipped to me this week. I have two pictures of it, although they're not the best quality. When it gets here, I'll take more pictures of it. Let me know what you think.
</font>

I don't mean to be an arse but how exactly would a machined cap be useful?

Seems to increase the chance of a spark going to ground ranter than to the plug.

I guess we (you & I) are not on the same page. What spark? If you are talking secondary high voltage, there isn't any! http://web.camaross.com/bb/confused.gif

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I'll be back

Arnie is correct. This piece was being machined to go with the multi coil packs. To make a better ignition system, you need to get the high voltage out of the opti anyway. Notice there are no spark plug wire towers on the machined piece...

Ryan

The only places i've seen the coils mounted is on top of the valve covers...

Is there another good place to mount them? I would prefer somewhere elses...

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by kmook:
The only places i've seen the coils mounted is on top of the valve covers...

Is there another good place to mount them? I would prefer somewhere elses...</font>

Look on Fred's website -- his are mounted under the car.

Fred's setup (http://cjcfo.fbody.com/members/injuneerzz@aol.com/Photos/Coils01.jpg)

If you have a blower, locating them where mine are is NOT a good idea. George has done quite a bit of damage to the wires with broken blower belts on the same setup.....

There are two more pics of each side:

http://cjcfo.fbody.com/members/injuneerzz@aol.com/Photos/CoilsL.jpg

http://cjcfo.fbody.com/members/injuneerzz@aol.com/Photos/CoilsR.jpg

Fred

[This message has been edited by Injuneer 94FormM6 (edited July 02, 2002).]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by arnie:
I guess we (you & I) are not on the same page. What spark? If you are talking secondary high voltage, there isn't any! http://web.camaross.com/bb/confused.gif
</font>


Ok. That is a little better(also explains why it seemed smaller http://web.camaross.com/bb/smile.gif ).

So now I question why? Since the optical section is exposed to the elements via the plug access (everything else is sealed and vacuum ports capped), what is the purpose of an extremely expensive (though pretty) cap?

Not trying to nitpick but I'm missing something.

-CAL

The purpose of this thread was to find a way to eliminate the opti. The general concensous is that the opti itself is not a bad idea, it's execution is though.
The placing of the HV section seems to add to the problem as well. You might notice that as people start putting on ACCEL systems to increase spark voltage they start having more problems with the opti, such as it going out more frequently.
There is also the problem that the opti is notorious for letting outside moisture in.
So now that there is no high voltage part you can use a metal cap to cover everything and it was created with the intention of sealing the opti better and to make it's life span signifigantly longer.
I believe a base is in the process of being created as well maybe the plug piece can be moved so as to not lett water in, or maybe a different connection all together.

Curt, any word on a beefed up base for the opti?

The base seems more than adequate, haven't found a reason to replace it. The only problem that seems to arise from the base is the bearing itself -- not that it's a bad design or inadequate, it just wears out. The good news is that it can be replaced and it doesn't sound like it's too hard to do. One of the design considerations in making the cap was to add additional support to make the shaft more stable and extend the life of the bearing. The rotor is also eliminated.

Luna -- I'm not sure I understand where you're coming from. How is the optical section exposed to the elements via the plug access? I'm assuming you're talking about the connector that sits at the 10 o'clock position (since that plug was referenced earlier in this thread). I can see how it could be a problem, but I don't agree that it's a poor design that is prone to leak provided that it's maintained properly. I have noticed that over time, those seals become dry and contaminated from being disconnected/reconnected (especially true when handling them with dirty, greasy hands). What I have always done (with all the GM weather packs) is whenever I disconnect one, I remove the little silicone gasket, wash it, give it a coat of dielectric grease and inspect the receiving socket for debris/damage before plugging it back in. I also try to make sure my hands are clean whenever I handle the connectors. Not only does it ensure that the connector remains water tight, but it also will disconnect easily next time around. I consider it preventitive maintenance. Yeah, it's a bit anal, but I've never had a problem with moisture or corrosion with the electrical system, and I wash my engine bay with carwash and a garden hose on a regular basis.

am installing a crank trigger on my 396 stoker. I also purchased the FAST system. I have read posts that you can remove the hi-voltage connections out of the opti and use the remainder for cam senor
Has anyone done this ?

Also what parts do u take out of the opti so there is no more High voltage parts.

Thanks

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by TazZ28:
am installing a crank trigger on my 396 stoker. I also purchased the FAST system. I have read posts that you can remove the hi-voltage connections out of the opti and use the remainder for cam senor
Has anyone done this ?

Also what parts do u take out of the opti so there is no more High voltage parts.

Thanks

</font>

The optical section of the Opti contains a cam position sensor... that is the function of the low resolution pulses. FAST and MoTeC (and I suspect other aftermarket systems) can use the low res signal for cam
position.

And, as I explained in my e-mail, you don't physically have to "remove" anything... simply by not having the coil wire and plug wires connected, you have eliminated the high voltage function, and have eliminated the resulting formation of ozone, and any potential electrical linterference with the optical processor. If you happen to have the Opti apart, you could remove the rotor, but that's all there is in the "high voltage" section. Curt's cover eliminates the plug and coil wire towers and contacts for the high voltage function.

Fred

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">The only places i've seen the coils mounted is on top of the valve covers...
Is there another good place to mount them? I would prefer somewhere else.</font>

Ken, no problem with that. What particular reason do you have for perferring another location? What alternate location do you have in mind? I prefer the traditional valve cvr. location, for a couple of reasons. Proximity to plugs, which is why it is referred to as a CNP system, and second, GM's choice carried alot of weight with me.

Although ingenious, didn't care for the location Fred used, exposing the coils to the elements/moisture. In Fred's case, it works well for him, especially with the limited use and the unlikely possibility of usage in the rain. I am confident those reasons figured into Fred's decision to locate coils where he did.



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I'll be back

[This message has been edited by arnie (edited July 04, 2002).]

What would I use for spark???

If you don't hook up the coil or spark plug wires to the opti, what are you
going to use to distribute the spark?? You can use the crank trigger to
tell it when to fire, but you have no means of getting the spark there,
unless I am missing something.

So the options are to use the opti or go to a coil system. What is everyone's thought about tapping the intake and putting in a MSD distributor?

If I do go with the LS1 coil setup does anyone have a list of parts to buy and the exact directions of what i need to have done ?



[This message has been edited by TazZ28 (edited July 05, 2002).]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by nov194:
There is also the problem that the opti is notorious for letting outside moisture in.
So now that there is no high voltage part you can use a metal cap to cover everything and it was created with the intention of sealing the opti better and to make it's life span signifigantly longer.
</font>


Thats my problem, the plug port is the only place water can come in so a CNCd cover seems to be nothing more than window dressing.


Just don't use the HV section like others are doing an seal off the vacuum lines.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Luna:

Thats my problem, the plug port is the only place water can come in so a CNCd cover seems to be nothing more than window dressing.

Just don't use the HV section like others are doing an seal off the vacuum lines.
</font>

The plug port is not the only place water can come in. Since there are three layers (Opti base, plastic divider and cap), there are several places that water can work it's way into. The seal between the cap, the plastic divider and the Opti isn't that great and is more prone to leak than the plug (which uses a triple flange silicone gasket). The bearing isn't sealed between the base or shaft either, so that could be another "prone" area. And I have no idea how well the towers are made where the coil and plug wires go -- I suspect that they could leak as well. What premise are you basing the problematic leakage at the plug port on, theory or fact?

If you would have read my entire post, you would have understood why the cap was designed the way it was -- not to be just "icing on the cake". But I digress -- some people will never understand (or choose not to understand because it doesn't follow their "logic"), which compels me to say "then just don't get one".

Taz -- the answers are right here in this thread. Go back to the beginning and read all the posts and look at the links that people have posted. The systems that several of us are using (although physically different use a similar principle) have separate coils that fire the cylinders independantly (direct fire method, 8 coils) or in pairs (aka "lost spark method", 4 coils with two plug towers on each one). The crank trigger (at least on my system) only sequences the coil packs -- the Opti still drives the ECM (which sequences the injectors). The ECM still controls the overall timing. FWIW, the Opti is much more accurate than a crank trigger. Here's a link (http://www.geek-racing.com/curt/sdi) to some pictures of my E'motive SDI Opti-Eliminator setup.

Ok I reread everything and will not use the crank trigger and will just use the opti for that portion.

So the options are to use the opti alone or go to a coil system and use part of the opti.
What is everyone's thought about tapping the intake and putting in a MSD distributor.

If I do go with the LS1 coil setup does anyone have a list of parts to buy and the exact directions of what i need to have done ?

Well, an MSD may be OK for an aftermarket engine management system, but your stock PCM would go nuts. Even on the SDI, if the crank trigger is not exactly in sync with the opti input, the pcm goes crazy and throws all kinds of codes. However, using the new MSD CPC system may be OK; someone has said there is a way to do it. YOu would make the hole at the back of the intake and put their plug in then use their system. I am not sure exactly how to do it; the price is too high for me to even look into it as I will be doing 2 or 3 of my LT1 cars when I do upgrade my ignition system.

Ryan

------------------
1994 Z28 A4, Vortech, Borla with EBorla, TPIS 52 mm TB, Hooker shorties, Electromotive SDI, LS1 brakes, AAM 3.42 rear, more.

Hey Curt, I just put 2 and 2 together. We spoke on the phone for an hour or 2 a few months back. I had just bought the SDI and you were the ONLY person that was able to give me the answers I needed.

Thanks for coming over and helping on this!!

Ryan

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Curt (pres AAMC & ZAA):
What premise are you basing the problematic leakage at the plug port on, theory or fact?

</font>

The PLUG is the 4 wire dist harness. Try this : Blow on one of the vacuum connectors and listen to where the air comes out.

Next test apply a vaccum to the ports (since that is the normal condition) and put a slight stream of colored water over the connector. You will be notice a good deal of colored water in the works.

You can also notice that more people are having opti harness failures. Hell, I just took off an opti that was filledup with coolant and the harness was brand spanking new and coated with dielectric. This little fiasco was caused by a pinhole in the TB coolant line. When you see dexcool (or the bluegreen crystals), it is pretty obvious what the sources is. Especially when the rest of the seals display no signs.


<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
If you would have read my entire post, you would have understood why the cap was designed the way it was -- not to be just "icing on the cake".
</font>

Oh I read it, there just isn't any credence. Why do you think it is a water pump that is the cause of opti failure in most cases and not road conditions?

Even so, why the expense of a machined cap when you can do the same this with a $5 tube of UltraBlue? You still have a seal to contend with both ways.


<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
But I digress -- some people will never understand (or choose not to understand because it doesn't follow their "logic"), which compels me to say "then just don't get one".
</font>

Truthfully, it sounds like a horse**** ploy to me. It is a decoration. There is absolutely no reason for needing the machined cap when the same can (and has) been done by many others for the cost of gasket seal.

The idea of this thread is to produce an Opti Eliminator. This isn't being done.

So now I ask you the same. You state the seal between the cap/divider/base isn't that great(even if it were bad, wouldn't a rebuild with a better gasket/sealant make more sense?). What premise are you basing the problematic leakage not being at the plug port on, theory or fact?

-CAL

Well, I couldn't care less if I have an optical pickup or points.....as long as it works and is somewhat reliable. What are the weak points of the opti??

=High voltage section promotes the degradation of the metal components in the opti.

=water gets in

=bearings fail.

=cap and rotor fails

=pain in the butt to change your plug wires

OK, now... what can be done to help relolve some of these problems??

1. Get high voltage out of the opti. (Gee, seems like we have heard this about a million times.)

2. Reduce the points where the water can enter. This would mean maybe getting rid of the plastic cap with a, a, hmmm, aluminum cover maybe??

3. Do something to reduce the load that the bearing is getting. Hmmmm...... what could we do..... Not... quite.... sure..... Oh!! Wait!! How about an aluminum cover that has an EXTRA bearing to help distribute the load?? Hey! Good idea! maybe someone should make a cap like that.

4. Get rid of the cap and rotor and it won't fail...

5. Make your plug wires come from somewhere else besides the opti.

I am sure some of you may be getting the point here. I started this thread. I want people that want to help. I DO NOT want people b!tching. If you see a problem, how about politely pointing it out instead of being a *****?? In order to develop any new product, it takes the cooperation of many. Someone that does not cooperate in an R&D team is sometimes seen standing in the median with a "Will work for food" sign.

How about we turn of whining mode and turn back on thought and suggestion mode?

I think the cap is a good idea. Not necessarily to keep ALL water out but to reduce the probability of it coming in. A plastic cap can break. The aluminum cap would just dent or scratch. The stock cap is not capable of getting a supplemental bearing to make the optical pickup more rigid; the aluminum cap is. OK....the plug problem. They have these new materials called SEALANTS. You just put a sealant where something leaks and it doesn't leak anymore. If it is leaking at the base of the receptacle, who says we can't use something as simple as epoxy to seal it?? Now, if it is the plug leaking, the careful inspection of the gasket and making sure it is properly lubricated will fix that. Still skeptical?? How bout some sealing heat shrink over the plug and wires?? If the opti does fail (we all know it will someday) you just take a sharp instrument called a knife and cut the heat shrink off.

Stepping off my soap box. Putting on Nomex suit....

Ryan

------------------
1994 Z28 A4, Vortech, Borla with EBorla, TPIS 52 mm TB, Hooker shorties, Electromotive SDI, LS1 brakes, AAM 3.42 rear, more.

Ryan, what you fail to see it that a solution to a nonexistant problem has been found.

Lets talk particulars.

Will you be willing to spend close to $2000 on your ignition? Because for this solution to have a practical chance, that will be the requirements.

Now what happens with the CPS goes? you still have to buy a new Opti to swap bases. 190 bucks+.


As for the bearing failing due to ozone. Do you think water is coming in at the bearings? Have you seen this happen? I'd guess not. If the bearings go, the rotor and the optical section reaks havoc different problem. I'd suggest you go talk to a GM tech and see what they see as the major cause of failure. I'll bet you they say coolant.


I believe that Fred said he has 5K or so on his since offloading the distributor function. That in itself is not enough to validate the ASSUMPTION that the HV section is the problem. I know of many running MSDs for a MUCH long time with the stock dual vented opti.


Look it isn't whining. Its constructive criticism and considering how little you knew about the opti problems based on your initial plee for info on this thread, you might need to listen. Now are you trying to solve the problem or are you trying to make a buck.

Wow, I can't wait to see the outcome of this thread, you all have me on the edge of my seat http://web.camaross.com/bb/smile.gif

But just wanted to say thanks to ALL participants who are working on this, hopefully we will finally get a solution to this old problem.

[This message has been edited by kmook (edited July 05, 2002).]

It seems that there are still a few issues to be solved.
The plug at 10 o'clock, this plug is actuallyavery short piece of the wiring harness, why can't putting silicone and some heat shrink wrap on it seal it indefinately, if by some chance you need to disconnect it for some reason or another it disconnect about 8 inches up from the engine wiring harness, the part about the opti cap leaking I believe has been solved.

There is still the base bearing, is there anything that can be done about this? I have put a layer of silicon inbetween each section of the opti this seemed to keep it from having problems. The silicon on the raised ring that actually comes in contact with the engine seems to have kept all traces of oil out of the opti ( had a oil leak) so that seemed to work rather well. The only place moisture could get in at this point would be at the small hole in the ring that comes in contact with the engine at the 6 o'clock position.

I believe that this cap has solved the majority of the issues that were presented, the shaft was deemed a good piece, it was admitted that the bearing might be questionable but it will probably fail at some point regardless,no matter the quality (bearings do that) but the extra bearing in the new cap would take some of the stress off of the back bearing.

Anyone know what that hole in the ring on the base plate is for?

Well it looks like I have the solution for my car and my partner's car.

i am going to install a MSD distributor in the intake and just get rid of the opti all together.


He is going to buy the EDIS from FAST to use with his FAST computer and purchase the LS1 coil packs

We are both purchasing from Pace a opti cover this allows you to remove teh opti and just put the cover in its place.

For his system is there anything else that he will need. he is running a bank to bank system so he wont need a cam sensor.

Please comment on the system.

and other parts besides the ls1 coil pack that will need to be purchased.

Now, if I were out to "make a buck" I wouldn't have posted this. I posted this to get a compilation of a bunch of people so I (or someone else) could build or help build a decent ignition system for our cars. The ignition system will have to be reasonably priced and more reliable than the stock piece.

You are correct. I will be the first to admit I don't know everything about the optispark. Or a transmission. Or how an airbag works. That is the beauty of the internet. You can get a bunch of people together just like this and learn more than you would ever imagine. I just want to make sure we don't end up getting fights between people. I've seen threads go way off topic just like this and prefer to keep this one serious and keep all the energy directed towards OUR development of the opti solution.

I appreciate every one of you inputting your findings, facts, and opinions. All of this is helping us get closer to our goal.

I, too, am pretty excited to see the outcome of this thread.

While the aluminum cover may not be totally necessary, I do think it has some benefits over the stock cap. Yes, we could just leave the stock cap there and seal it but I, personally, would like to see a more complete package.

At any rate, here is where we are so far:

We know someone makes the electronics to put LS1 coil packs on our cars that is compatible with the optical pickup.

There has been an aluminum cover manufactured to take the place of the opti's cap.

Yes, there are still issues with the opti's base and fluid leakage concerns to be addressed; I think this is minor.

Nearly all of us have learned at least something in this thread, so that's good.



Ryan

As a daily driver my Caprice has reached close to 200,000 miles (About 600 miles away) Although I can not speak for the first 100,000 miles while it was a michigan state police car, I changed the cap and rotor on this car about 70,000 miles ago. So the original optical drive is still in tact and working.

Wouldn't the billet cap be more or less an option for someone who wanted to use it?
You COULD just use silicon and plug the plug towers or epoxy for that matter and have the same effect. (Assuming the cap doesn't get effected by heat..)

My problem when I took mine apart is the damn little bolts they have you bolting the cap to the housing. Off two optisparks 7 of the 8 bolts snapped off. I ended up using a drill and drilling out these bolts and then using coarse self taping screws to hold the cap in place. Now my car will stumble for a while after a car wash. Takes about 10 miles of 55mph driving to clear it out. I do not dare do anything much off idle while doing this or the car acts erratic.

Seems to me that normal diaelectric grease is not really made to live around high voltage. I work for a local govt and on the dump trucks and such they load up the connector with diaelectric grease. These connectors never corrode with all that "goop" in them. Now that you have removed the high voltage section would you be able to then pack this connector with the same diaelectric grease or would it possibly leak into the optics?

As another idea why don't we have a cap made that replaces the original cap and this spacer thus removing another layer of possible leaks. If this is done we have the flexability of having a socket made that would better seal if this is indeed a problem or atleast provide a different "angle of attack" for the wire and possibly a channel we could load up with grease?

I expect there will be a new optispark in my future. I would like to instead buy something that I can just stick on my car and be done with the optispark. Having a spark limitor for when I decide to go either NO2 or forced induction will be benifitial as well. I noticed one of the guys with one of these systems is in Detroit. I would be willing to come to Detroit to pick up needed components. (I live by Grand Rapids.)
How close are we to having a true replacement system? For now I would not mind just getting the coil pack setup and I would put vacuum caps on the plug towers for now.

So I have a better idea of how this system will interface....

Will it basically just plug into the place of the coil? Basically we just dont have any plug wires on the opti anymore and this unit basically goes where the coil was or does it goe beween the PCM and OPti while bypassing the coil assembly altogether?
I almost bought an SDI system. But by the time I had the cash available they were no longer selling the unit..

As a side note Elecromotive did publish a want ad in the DIY EFI mail list looking for someone to come work for them...
I know at the tieme I was quoted $1000 for the SDI system without the opti eliminator.

Luna - I'm not exactly sure why you're so dead set against a manufactured cap. It's made to more strict tolerances than a molded plastic cap and it doesn't distort when the screws are tightened, so it seals better. It will probably help keep some EMI out of the Opti when running an electric water pump. It definately looks nicer than the stock cap. I wanted one for my setup, and I thought others would be interested in it as well. And as a FYI, I'm not making any money from these - I'm not the one making them. I've been working on getting them made for others who would like to have one as well.

Out of the single Opti failure I've personally experienced, it was because of a leak between the cap and the plastic divider -- I could see where it had stained the plastic. The used Opti I bought had oil in it when I opened it up, and again, it had leaked between the cap and plasic divider and had discolored the plastic where it came in. Since my motor is out and the wiring harness is laying in the garage, I went and checked how well it sealed, and it's fine. When it's plugged in and I put a vacuum on it, the only leak I could get was from around the shaft. It's not like it's going to have alot of vacuum on it anyway, GM regulates it to less than 2" Hg. (FWIW, when I tested vacuum to the Opti awhile ago, I couldn't get it to even come up to 2" Hg at idle -- the lowest my gauge registers).

There are several other people who have removed the high tension side from the Opti and experienced better reliability. Fred is not the only isolated case.

I don't know why I'm posting all this, you seem to be closed minded about the whole thing. I know that I won't change your mind one way or another, no matter what I write.


To everyone else who's been interested in the cap, it came in today and I got a chance to take some pictures and look at the construction of the base a little closer. I do need someone's help though -- I need to verify how the shaft is indexed to the hub. To show you what I'm talking about, here's a picture (http://www.geek-racing.com/curt/SDI/MachinedCap/Hub%26Shaft1.JPG). There is a small oval hole on the hub, and I believe it's lined up with the slot on the shaft that accepts the pin from the camshaft. Both of my opti's have been disassembled, so I don't have anything to reference. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Anyway, on to some pictures!
Here's some of the cap at different angles:
Pic 1 (http://www.geek-racing.com/curt/SDI/MachinedCap/Cap1.JPG)
Pic 2 (http://www.geek-racing.com/curt/SDI/MachinedCap/Cap2.JPG)
Pic 3 (http://www.geek-racing.com/curt/SDI/MachinedCap/Cap3.JPG)

Here's the assembly process:
Exploded view. (http://www.geek-racing.com/curt/SDI/MachinedCap/ExplodedView.JPG)
Shim on hub. (http://www.geek-racing.com/curt/SDI/MachinedCap/Assemble1.JPG)
Slotted disk on top of shim. (http://www.geek-racing.com/curt/SDI/MachinedCap/Assemble2.JPG)
Base of rotor cut off to hold everything together. (http://www.geek-racing.com/curt/SDI/MachinedCap/Assemble3.jpg) This isn't final production, the piece that will go here wasn't ready yet. I did this to hold it together for now.
Shield in place. (http://www.geek-racing.com/curt/SDI/MachinedCap/Assemble4.JPG) This piece probably isn't needed anymore, but I installed it anyway.
Plastic separater in place. (http://www.geek-racing.com/curt/SDI/MachinedCap/Assemble5.JPG)
Completed assembly. (http://www.geek-racing.com/curt/SDI/MachinedCap/Assembled1.JPG)
Different view of completed assembly. (http://www.geek-racing.com/curt/SDI/MachinedCap/Assembled2.JPG)
Another angle shot of completed assembly. (http://www.geek-racing.com/curt/SDI/MachinedCap/Assembled3.JPG)

In case anyone would like the breakdown of the Opti, it can be found here:
The F-Body Shop (http://www.thefbodyshop.com/frame_index.cfm?txtLink=www.charm.net/%7Emchaney/optisprk/optisprk.htm) (I hope they don't mind me posting a link to their site).


Nov 194 -- What hole in the ring of the base? I looked, but I'm not sure exactly what you're talking about.

elixir -- We looked at removing the center plastic divider, but it proved to be too time consuming and cumbersome to machine the connector plug into it. And I think there is a difference between the non-vented and the vented Optis, so two separate covers would have to be made. Yes, the billet cap is only an option for those who want it, but I believe that it will seal better since it holds tighter tolerances and distributes pressure around the circumferance more evenly. The problem I see with dielectric grease is that some people go way too overboard with it. you only want a nice, thin, even film on the silicone connector -- you don't want it on the contacts themselves, it acts like an insulator and will probably cause more problems than it helps.

[This message has been edited by Curt (pres AAMC & ZAA) (edited July 05, 2002).]

So. I've read this and I'm pretty excited. I have a 1996 Impala SS with an A4. But I have some questions:

1 - If I keep the optispark for high/low pulse with or without a cap, who makes the items I need to interface my PCM to the LS1 style coil packs?

2 - If I can come up with the coil packs, and the mounts and all that, do the electronics that would solve issue 1 above allow me to retain my PCM for the transmission, diagnostics, etc?

Hope I haven't stepped on my d!ck here. Just trying to get some solid information to make the swap.



------------------
Kelly 'GhoSSt' Rosato
1996 DGGM Impala SS, 385 LT4
1995 Formula Firebird, Stock
1993 Caprice, 406ci MPFI

I did post a link to this message on the Bbody mail lists I am on. So don't be suprised if some Impala and Caprice guys show an interest. http://web.camaross.com/bb/wink.gif

Um, well, if you look at the opti in it's assembled form and look at the backside of the base where it touches the engine there is a ring around the gear drive it measures about 3 7/8 inches across and is about 1/4 inch wide, it has a small gap at the bottom, is there anything we can do about this?
What's it for?

ghoSSt:

If you go back and read completely through the thread, you will see the person that is selling the electronics to put the LS1 coil packs on. The pcm still controls all timing like it used to so everything will be the same.

Ryan

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Curt (pres AAMC & ZAA):
Luna - I'm not exactly sure why you're so dead set against a manufactured cap.</font>

I'm not against it one bit. Hell I will probably want one for my next engine if I don't put a shorty distributor on http://web.camaross.com/bb/smile.gif. Like I said it is pretty.

It is I don't think it will solve this particular problem. That is reason of the thread. I agree with the better bearings, but not the NEED of a new cap. But I do like the looks of it.

Whom else do you have reference of with a daily driver and better operation with a external box? I'd love to hear the particulars. 5k or even 15k isn't a good testimony.


First thing is I don't like running off the low rez only. I'd want a box utilizing the high rez line. A crank sensor plus lowrez is fine but low rez only I have a problem with. If it is mostly a strip car fine but I'm looking for a solution that will not take a rev or two to sync up before firing and have well behaved street manors.

What would flip my lid would be a new base that had an easy to replace (5-10min operation) CPS. This has been my objective. A sealed nice bearing would be nice.

Basically I understand that the sensor will fail ultimately so anything that can be done to facilitate the replacement with regard to cost and labor is my key motivator in this thread.

Luna, your last post explained where you are coming from and your position on the subject. Good post, it was I who was misunderstanding what you were trying to say, and I apologize.

Maybe this will allow me to make some points on the bearings GM choose to use, the base and the cap, since I now have a more specific path.

Originally, I set out to come up with something more aesthetically pleasing and turned to a skilled machinist who does amazing work. He's the one that came up with the idea of additional support for the shaft with the hopes of reducing issues with the main bearing. The bearing itself doesn't appear to be a problem, it's a good quality, sealed, made in Japan, ball bearing that is adequately supported and secured in the base of the Opti. The problem seems to arise that the shaft is only supported on one end. Originally, I don't think it was a problem on the 92-93 LT1's, since there was a center shaft between the Opti and the camshaft. When the design was changed, they went to a pin drive which sits off-center and puts a side load on the shaft of the Opti, which I believe causes premature wear. The idea was to support the shaft on both ends to eliminate the side load and prolong the life of the Opti. The long term issue, however, is that it's still a sealed bearing -- it will wear out since it's exposed to heat and there isn't a way to relube it. The answer would have been to use a wet bearing (like they did with the waterpump drive that's pressed into the block). But that would have opened up a whole new set of problems.

For longevity, I personally have over 20k miles on the same Opti using the E'motive setup. My car was a daily driver (until I decided to tear down the engine and do a rebuild). The pictures that I posted earlier of the Opti that was torn all the way down is the Opti I took off my car. The only problem with it was the bearing has some slop in it. Not bad, but way more than it should. I know that Fred has mentioned at least one other person using a system similar to his with no Opti problems. Maybe he'll chime in when he gets a minute.

As far as how the other systems utilize the Opti, I can't say -- I haven't really looked at them since I'm very happy with the Electromotive I currently have. In my setup, the ECM is still using the hi and lo resolution just like it always has, but I have a crank trigger that sequences the coil pack for baseline timing (the ECM still controls overall timing, although I can make the E'motive do it's own timing curve if I choose). Most of the time my car starts just like it did before the E'motive, but there are times it takes a an extra revolution or two for the coil pack to sync to the crank trigger. I don't think it's that big of a deal, but that's me.

The cap was built to try to resolve the issues I had with the Opti to the best of it's ability -- but within reason. Yes, a whole new base/cap setup could have been made, but the time to machine and build would make it way too cost prohibitive. Do I expect it to resolve all the issues? No, there are too many variables out there that make that unrealistic.

FWIW, even though that the new aluminum cap seals much better than the original, I will still run a vacuum line to it just in case some moisture happens to get inside of it. I am also contiplating using a piece of tubing in the weep hole of the waterpump in case it does leak so it won't spray all over the Opti -- more preventative measures. I am also curious if the reduced thickness of the Opti with the new cover will faciliate removal without having to take the water pump off. Doubtful, but I will look at that once I start rebuilding the engine.

I wish I had some answers for you about the other systems, but my part was only working on the cap. The other people who are building the systems will have to step forward and address those issues.

From what I understand the box arnie uses does use bout high and low resolution signals from the opti.
Have I misunderstood here?

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">From what I understand the box arnie uses does use both high and low resolution signals from the opti.</font>

Yes! http://web.camaross.com/bb/smile.gif

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">To everyone else who's been interested in the cap, it came in today and I got a chance to take some pictures...</font>

Curt, I'm a toolmaker by trade.....My compliments to the machinist. http://web.camaross.com/bb/smile.gif

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">I did post a link to this message on the Bbody mail lists I am on. So don't be suprised if some Impala and Caprice guys show an interest. http://web.camaross.com/bb/wink.gif</font>

http://www.impalassforum.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=003361

http://web.camaross.com/bb/rolleyes.gif

------------------
I'll be back



[This message has been edited by arnie (edited July 07, 2002).]

There is an interesting setup being made right now that i am finding some info that uses the edis system and the northstar coil packs wonder if that would work nicely for our cars better.

Steven

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383 Inches of stroked turbocharged fun.
If one is good shouldnt 2 be great????? :D:D:D
TURBO=TORQUE
TORQUE=FUN
Ask me about Burhead Headers If you are gonna use them
My Car (http://groups.msn.com/Zturbo)

Steve, do you know whether it is used with oem pcm or aftermarket ecm?

------------------
I'll be back

Hello all,

I figured this info would pertain to this topic. This person converted a LT1 intake to work with a TPI motor. Here is a link to the page, with the information about drilling the rear distributor hole in an LT1 intake. This might help those thinking of installing a distributor in their LT1 ignition system.

http://www.lt1intake.com/distributor.htm

Courtney

throughout this discussion, nobody has chimed in giving detailed information on the specifics to opti operation.. I know many of you know of or have distributor less systems but unless you can give information pertaining to how they function your chit chat is useless to this thread. know exactly how the opti functions..I know about the high res and low res optical pickups but that doesn't explain to me how at the moment you turn your key and begin turning over the motor how the ecm knows the crank position and timing. it would be my guess is that there might be an even and odd number between the different resolution pickups that it somehow differentiates and instantly knows the cranks position. Well.. if we knew this amount of information I would think it would be conceivable to make some inline plugs that tap the optical portion and have a separate controller for the coil-paks..and just use the factory coil output as a reference for timing changes.

crank position and timing doesn't matter since we have something better, camshaft position sensor.

The low rez line is called reference for a reason, the slot are different in size and allow for determining where in the 4stroke cycle we are. The high rez slots basically give additive information and a more discrete position.

If you put a logic analyzer on the optical section while running, the data coming out makes perfect sense. It is fairly trivial to determine which coil pack to fire from it.

It would be even easier to use the rotor to decide which to fire, just use lower voltage (bypass the coil but buffer the PCM output) to minimize ozone output and use the sparkplug outputs to act as the trigger for the coilpacks. You really don't have to use an outboard computer if you think about it http://web.camaross.com/bb/smile.gif

-CAL

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">I know many of you know of or have distributor less systems but unless you can give information pertaining to how they function your chit chat is useless to this thread. </font>


"chit chat"........ http://web.camaross.com/bb/rolleyes.gif

I guess the rest of us just assumed everyone else was familiar with the cylinder-to-cylinder slot pattern of the low res pulse..... If you wanted to know, there are more polite ways of asking, IMHO.

I've been follow this post with my limited knowledge of the system. But after seeing the LT1 manifold drilled for a distributor I have few questions.

1st) I assume the EGR was air tube connection was blocked off, or did they still fit?

2nd) I have the tech II w/O the opti eliminator. but I see electromotive sells a distributor/wheel sensor that is a replacement for a standard rear mounted dist.
So Would it be possible? without a cap and rotor there should be room back there?

Could eliminate the opti completely from the front of the motor using the crank position wheel and rear distributor sensor?

Anyone else have an Opti that failed like this?

http://members.cox.net/gmarengo/DCP_0842.JPG

That's how the cap looked when I took it off, with the metal rotor part embedded in the plastic ring. Amazingly, my car still ran -- horribly, but still enough to *maybe* beat a stock Honda Civic http://web.camaross.com/bb/smile.gif

Addition: Thanks for the offer, but Sam Smith had one in much better shape, although it did cost me $190 http://web.camaross.com/bb/smile.gif

[This message has been edited by nuke61 (edited July 21, 2002).]

Nuke,
I dont know what went bad in mine, but the one that just cam off of my car sounds like there are 100 pieces rattling around inside.

You can have it if ya like http://web.camaross.com/bb/smile.gif

------------------
Ken Mook - 97' SS #2544
Advanced Tech Posting Guidelines (http://web.camaross.com/cgi-bin/ubbmisc.cgi?action=getannounce&ForumNumber=30&Start=2452276.99&End=2453736&Session=)
?rwhp & ?rwtq Naturally Aspirated on the Stock Bottom End.
Stage 3 Pro Performance Heads, Solid Roller 242/248 Cam, Endur-X Lifters,
Jet Hot Hooker LTs, True Dual 3" Exhaust with x-pipe, and the list goes on and on (http://www.geocities.com/kmook123)...

if you guys want an LS1 ignition then is there a way to integrate the ENTIRE thing into an LT1. im talking about the coils(of course) but along with them, the wiring harness and PCM. wouldnt the LT1 and LS1 meter all engine perameters the same? i dont have any idea how the LS1 igntion timing works so any obvious reasoning is due to my ignorance of the system.

------------------
Brad
1997 Z28 M6
T-tops, chrome rims, all options, SLP Dual/Dual, cutout, !CAGS, FIPK, LT4 KM, Air Foil, TB bypass, pro 5.0, OBD1, !EGR, !AIR, CSI waterpump, 160* thermostat, 1LE intake elbow, PCM tuning by, www.PCMFORLESS.com (http://www.PCMFORLESS.com), taylors, singe-cat SLP shorties minus the cat!

Unfortunately the LS1 and LT1 don't share firing order... it'd be interesting, though, to have a crank and camshaft cut for the LT1 that *did* revise the firing order to match the LS1's... http://web.camaross.com/bb/smile.gif

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by jimlab:
Unfortunately the LS1 and LT1 don't share firing order... it'd be interesting, though, to have a crank and camshaft cut for the LT1 that *did* revise the firing order to match the LS1's... http://web.camaross.com/bb/smile.gif</font>

With the cost of getting a custom crank, and custom cam, plus dealing with the hassle of fitting the wiring harness and computer from the LS1 car, it would be basically the same price to sell your LT1 car, and buy a LS1 powered car. Or I'm sure you could find someone to completely reprogram the LS1 computer to use LT1 programming. A computer can be programmed to do just about anything.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by jimlab:
Unfortunately the LS1 and LT1 don't share firing order... it'd be interesting, though, to have a crank and camshaft cut for the LT1 that *did* revise the firing order to match the LS1's... http://web.camaross.com/bb/smile.gif</font>

Why would you need to do that? All you have to do to change the firing order of the coils is move the coil wiring harness connectors around. You would have to do the same thing to the injectors too.

But getting the PCM to control other parameters of the engine would still probably be a big chore.

We have a car with the FAST piggybacked to the stock PCM. The 41 wires were spliced and the car ran fine. Well, the opti started to crap out, so we got LS1 coils, a crank trigger and cam sync from MSD and the eDist box from FAST. The directions suck as does the support from the vendor and FAST themselves.
We need some schematics/ideas of what to do. Do we keep the Opti and use either the crank or cam sensor?
I thought maybe the ignition module could tell the eDist when to fire, and all we need is to know when #1 is firing? Any direct help/email is much appreciated.

Thanks,
Christian Dionne
CDionne@cfl.rr.com

Ok I works Fine has been field tested and,Is in production and should be availible in 2 too 3 weeks .Linginfelter wants some, So judge for yourself.I am waiting for a phone call right now .May be able too set up a group purchase http://web.camaross.com/bb/smile.gif.I should have the Component list and Price within a couple days.

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lil Japanese car BIG American motor
www.speakeasy.net/~lt1240z

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by cad78:
Well, the opti started to crap out, so we got LS1 coils, a crank trigger and cam sync from MSD and the eDist box from FAST.</font>Christian, just curious who you were able to get an MSD cam sync stub through. We've been waiting on one from MSD for nearly 3 months now, with no luck.

Thanks

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Curt (pres AAMC & ZAA):
Why would you need to do that? All you have to do to change the firing order of the coils is move the coil wiring harness connectors around. You would have to do the same thing to the injectors too.</font>Good point, I hadn't thought of that. http://web.camaross.com/bb/smile.gif

Got it through a vendor that has some horrible support, with one of the best reputations for FAST in the country.

We're still looking for advice or schematics on the eDist wiring. I'm beginning to think that Craig and the others at FAST don't even know themselves.

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Christian Dionne
Orlando, Fl

Well, I don't think that Mark (Montalvo) is going to have a lot of problems with the wiring, but sourcing a cam sync stub has been (more than) problematic so far, apparently. We've got the FAST box, LS1 coils, and an MSD crank trigger wheel, but we're waiting on a cam sync stub at the moment, and at this point, I didn't really want to pay the extra money for the Motec stub if I didn't have to.

I'm out of town and don't have access to my e-mail. If you could post the vendor you bought the MSD cam sync stub from, I'd appreciate it. I'm getting a little anxious to see my engine finally finished and find out just how much power it makes with a fully functioning ignition. http://web.camaross.com/bb/smile.gif

Thanks!

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by LT1240Z:
Ok I works Fine has been field tested and,Is in production and should be availible in 2 too 3 weeks .Linginfelter wants some, So judge for yourself.I am waiting for a phone call right now .May be able too set up a group purchase http://web.camaross.com/bb/smile.gif.I should have the Component list and Price within a couple days.

</font>
LT1 Z240
did I see your Z at Larry Strouths? In Colonial Beach VA?

Also, is that your LT1 with the AFR heads?

If so, is the Opti eliminator and Coil pack ignition a good and reliable system? I'd like to check it out.
Karl Ellwein
PS: if that isn't your stuff, disregaurd.

Hello,

Does anyone have a complete and documented system that uses the stock PCM signals, LS1 coils and a CD control module? It would be great if someone pulled all the information together from this post and documented something for others to follow as a guideline.

Courtney

Yes It's mine, all mine hehehe Small World .It's an lt4 now http://web.camaross.com/bb/smile.gif .The unit entails a gm coil pak availible anywhere, crank trigger, and a unit too control it.I will Have pricing in 2 too 3 weeks units will be availible about 30 too 45 days.Screw looking at my ride there Check out the Volkswagon it's the **** .Also for COMPLETE control the Delphi's should be availible in the next couple months Those units are SICK!! Don't forget too stop at Willey's on the way there. That's half the reason the DRIVE IS
WORTH IT MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM Willey's Tell Trish I sent you the guy with the 240z

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lil Japanese car BIG American motor
www.speakeasy.net/~lt1240z

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by LT1240Z:
..........I will Have pricing in 2 too 3 weeks units will be availible about 30 too 45 days.Screw looking at my ride there Check out the Volkswagon it's the **** .</font>
I'll be keeping an eye in the forum here for the pricing and the progress of your ignition system. I could claim a 0.00001% stake in the system since I let Larry borrow some LT1 hubs and dampers to engineere the system. http://web.camaross.com/bb/smile.gif hehehe. just kidding on that. Hey, what are hot rodding buddys for anyway, lend tools, give away parts.
Maybe Larry will let me race that Cobra at MIR tonight. http://web.camaross.com/bb/wink.gif

Karl Ellwein--see ya in the winner's circle.
95 impala SS, (2 wins at MIR so far this year).

I have no stake at all in it.Just trying too help Sr. sell some.Because all you all Cry about the opticrap all day long.I hate too see such suffering. my opti was blocking a hole[tecII].I bought the plug from GM this year.Never hooked up probably has anywhere from 3000-5000 miles on it, want it CHEAP ?.As for the Cobra, Whose Driving it? Jeff?? After the Volkswagon nuetered him , and chipped his tooth do you think he is up for it?HHEHEHE

I must admit that I am lost. Does someone have a kit available that uses the optispark, LS1 coils and stock PCM (OBDI? or OBDII?) ? LT1240Z, you speak (or write) in tongues. I don't have a clue to waht you are saying concerning the status of t