true, those guys run and maintain dan millens mustang, that thing cooks. thing is they are volume too, there are still alot of quality guys here, just not quantity like that. just takes research to find the right guy for you. like where i got my motor built. they specialize in ford powerplants but they also do 2000hp alcolhol injectected big block chevys. they know their **** and theres alot of guys at the track that have dealt with them, so i went there, and they did awesome work

 

Rashpaul has built my current motor. I'm optomistic about it being 100% and he will be present at start up and tuning.

of course I also have a better base line tune for this start up then last time.

Candidly, I think a short block is a short block. i think deciosn on can, tuning and heads are significantly more important with respect to experience being important.

 

All I have to say is it comes down to one thing: TUNING the computer.

A Gen 2 or 3 small block requires specific tuning of the computer to break in properly. I don't think it's the actual assembly and machining that's the main factor in the differences between a Gen 1. Most all Gen 1's are carbed, and there are a ton of people that can tune a built motor with a carb for break-in.

I agree with others, that there is nothing exotic about an LT1 or LS1, it's the break-in tune that makes it or breaks it.

With a GM EFI motor you need the proper tune for break-in, and re-tune after the rings have been seated. The only other way I can see it working is if you break in your LT1 or LS1 with a carb, and then fine tune after that.

 

jason, you have no experience with anything other then sbc so whatever. and if you lump in a turbo buick with a sbc bottom end you are a complete idiot. go check on turbobuick.com, they have totally differnent tolerances, which is why 90% of GN guys go to like three shops in the US. ive looked into turbo buicks, i wanted to run a turbo buick setup. its builders who think like you put together these bottom ends and have them not run right. so pull your head and carb fantasy out fo your *** for once. you DO NOT take a honda motor to a shop that builds SBC all day long, it wont run right period.

okay so tunning may wash rings, but what about oil pressure failure?? and should it not be the shops responisibility to tell a customer on proper break in? that is negligence on there part to just drop in a motor and give the keys and say here you go have fun, but theres no warranty on anything whatsoever.

i never said the gen 2 or 3 is magical, id like to see anyone find a post where i stated that. i just said locals cant seem to build em right. they, like many old school guys, just treat them like any other bottom end. you guys cant seem to get it thru your heads that gen 2 and gen 3s have different tolerances then gen 1s. and dont even try and say the turbo buick blocks are the same as well, theres only a handful of shops that know the turbo buick blocks inside and out.

ive stated my piece, im talking to a wall here so im done on this subject.

 

What about the fool who turned up the boost without forged internals or proper tuning?

 

Im lovin my motor... built and tuned local....iv put on about 3500kms and none of them have been easy kms....i kick the **** out of my car cuz i know it can handle it....cars pulls like a ****!!!!!!! cant wait till i hit her up with a 250 shot!!!!!
The most important part of my motor was my tune....right from the first time it came alive dragin don had i covered!!!!
The SS will be goin into surgery friday for stage 3 heads set-up and g5x3 cam...and ls1 edit will be used for the tuneing.....will post dyno #'s up soon when shez all done and tuned!!!! Gonna be GOODTIMEZ!!!!

 

I don't think this discussion can go any further untill we all know what failed on that motor, so Roy when you find out please share

 

Let us know when it's going on the dyno. I'd like to witness the insanity

 

Damn you have too many badass toys !!

 

Jaz is the Late Model GM PIMP!!!!

 

I have to say that I have yet to see a local builder do a good job on any of our cars, the list goes on, Roy has a point when he says that all locals suck. I think it comes down to attitude, every shop I have ever gone to for any high performance need locally I want to run out of there after hearing all their lack of knowledge and neglidgence, they all thing a rebuilt is a rebuild, but if you ask as shop in the states like MTI, they will not stop talking about what they do different, and that is what I like hearing, not "rebuld $3k", we carry our own crappy in house part, there is no need to do what you are doing doing, kind of attitude that I get from any shop around here, except HPE, when I went there, I noticed they are very well organized but hell, they charge an arm and a leg so I can see their product being good.

Most of the shops here, you can tell them one thing and they will do the complete opposite, like a valve job, I can explain to them what I want, and they won't even have a clue what I'm talking about, this does not go for all builders, just all the ones I've ever gone to "except HPE which I can't afford".

Sure there are some bad shops in the states, but they are not advertised like the crummy ones here, ARE? Well, lets just say no American will touch those idiots with a 10 foot pole, just like any Canadian shop, all I hear is they ask for one setup and they get another, they ask for a full port job, and they get a pocket port job. Just do some research on this board about them.

Richmond motors, I dunno, all I know is they told Sandeep its a 383 and he got a 355, they also told him that it will be a power house and rev to the moon, but hey, you can use stock rockers and valve train no problem, until he did and bent a few a valves. I heard those guys if they know you, you will get an good job, if they don't, they'll pump out your engine real fast and not care about it, but he, thats just what I heard.

Didn't they do Houman's last engine? The one that went through what, 3 rebuilds? And when it sold it was blowing blue? Yeah thats right, and they will all tell you, that you are not doing what you should be with the engine by beating on it.

But here is a very nice example, Payam's engine. Stock 140,000 on the clock, launching on 100 shot at 6k RPM dump, reving to 7k all day long, and ran perfectly fine and then sold that way. Yeah, I guess its a bad idea to do anything close to a rebuilt engine, because I mean come'on, its not a stock production build anymore, its a performance build, so you have to take it easy on it.

I dunno, I'm tired, but I started thinking, its true, the guys you don't hear about, are the ones that spend a lot of money, I know most shops in the states use state of the art equipnment almost anywhere you call, here, its like one shop that does, that says something, they get busy, they have long waiting lists, and they do a good job for a lot of money.

Then you hear that you gotta pay to play, but hey, I paid nothing, and I'm playing with over 400RWHP for little money, but you know what? I guess my 5 angle valve job is not considered so high tech down in the states so almost everyone has one, here its like 3 angle? WOW! Where at? How much? Why do you need all those angles? Hu, 5 angles? you mean two valves combined?

Again, there are bad shops in the states too, but the bad one there, a valve job costs you $50, a bad valve job here, costs you $400, you take your pick. Good valve job there, $200 maybe more if something super duper, here, over a grand, and it will probably be something they don't do on a regular basis.

Anywho, I'm not bashing one, just typing.

 

^ and the word of god has been writin in the engine bible for all to see and fear over.

 

Dave Ferina's old car (Houman's) broke all three main caps due to tuning...apparently he downloaded a tune that put everything out of wack. Low Fue (L&R Racing) tried to tune it and couldn't even get it a block without saying its ****ed. BOTTOM LINE IT WASN"T THE SHOPS FAULT.

Sandeep got what he paid for (355) and obviously got decent customer service because his engine at Richmond right now. Jim told me he bent a valve because he floated the valves. Again, not the shops fault.

 

i have alot more experience then you know, and it aint just a sbc, which this discussion falls into play, a sbc. obviously your not reading what ive been typing, were not talking about some 1200hp custom motor here, were talking about a 6L rebuild with std parts. there is absolutely nothing special with that bottom end. there is no special procedures that it uses that no other motor does, bearing clearances are bearing clearances, endplay is endplay, bolt torque is bolt torque. the engine will have a spec to follow its the same as any other motor, set the clearances right, bolt it up, put the right rings and gap in with the proper ring gap spacing.

but obviously your just being stubborn and its no use discussing it cuz no matter what i say its wrong anyhow


and bunker, theres alot of right in what your saying, there are bad shops out there that dont know what they are doing, and sometimes its hard to find good work for value. but like any other application key is to research and go places that specialize in what you are looking for. like for me when i found me engine builder, he has done alot of work for people in the racing scene, and made tons of high hp race motors from drag racing to mud bogging. the key is experience. chances are joe shop would have messed up my build too cuz its pretty custom, so i found someone with experience in that field. bottom line is $$$ talks. good help is easy to find with lots of $$$

 

Man, I wasn't even going to jump in on this but... My motor is NOT at Richmonds, and hasn't been since I first got it from him. I sent him my heads to match up the bent valve that I had. The bent valve resulted from "driving" on the #1 and reving up to the red. I had told him that I wanted 1.6rr and better sprngs from the start of my rebuild , but he told me not to bother. That is my only bone to pick with him, because I asked him more than once to go ahead and throw some better valves and RRs on the motor. That probably would have saved me the trouble that I have to go through now.

I will say however that his customer service is awesome! When I told him what happened, he was more than willing to get my heads looked after. I will also say that I didn't get what I wanted, however I do partially blame that to miscommunication on both sides, and lack of experience/knowledge on my side. As for price, I think he's a little on the expensive side, and he has openly admitted to not knowing EFI cars as well as he does carbed cars when it comes to tuning. And from first hand experience I can see why,... I didn't see a single car in there that was EFI besides MIkes and Mine. Everything else was 600+ hp carburated behomeths. He will however point you in the right direction, ie refer you to someone who does know how to tune. I never took him up on that offer but I can say that he does have the resources.

Just because I am dissatisfied with what I got, I refuse to say that he runs a shiotty shop, mostly because I believe that it was my lack of knowledge or ignorance that led to what I got. It is hard to blame yourself and easy to blame the "other" guy. I didn't know you guys at that time at all, and if I did, I probably would have had more knowledge about what I wanted and I would have done things A LOT different.

With all this being said, I need to go pick up my heads from him soon, so I can get my car back together for the summer. The whole thing with Richmond was a learning experience, but I will say if I ever wanted to get a motor built that was carburated, I would definetly go back to him, no if ands or buts. He is a great guy to deal with and his service alone speaks wonders for a business.