Oooooohhhhhh. I like that line. Mind if I use it sometimes? I can think of a perfect situation in my personal life where this is applicable

Now, on the topic. I guess that most of us can agree that both sides, and the middle ground have very valid points. But what I find ironic is that Osama and Saddam, (which spelled bacwards is Maddas ) where both at one time or another working for or being funded/aided by the US. I also wonder what would happen if the UN or say another country , said we believe that the US is making weapons of mass destruction. Do you think the US would allow UN inspectors to freely go where they want in their country and question whoever they want to prove this claim true/false? So I can imagine the hostility that any ruler of a country would have. Mind you , the US is a "democratic" society and there are enough controls, hopefully, in place that would prevent a US president from pushing the button in comparison to Saddams dictatorship. so that to a point can be justified.
I also wonder about how it has been said that the US will go into Iraq , free the people, establish "order" and then leave the Iraqi people to rule themselves. How long will it take for this order to be established so that the Iraqis are free to rule themselves. Will it every be orderly enough for the US and Britain to withdraw or will they end up raisining another Osama?

I don't know the answers to half these questions and I have lots more that are unanswered. These are all things that makes me question the true motives of the USA. It could be exactly what they say it is, but that's a hell of alot of money to spend (Billions) to "free people" and expect nothing in return but thank yous and some peace and quiet fo a little longer.

Man... I gotta get back to work

 

You bring up some good points! For one the US does have many weapons of mass destruction and that is what makes it a superpower to some degree. Is it right to have these?? I don't know. The problem isn't with other countries like it used to be it is with Fundementalist and I don't know if they really care if we have them or not.

Also the US unlike an Iraq keeps EXTREME tabs on all this crap, if an inspecter came in they could provide the documentation of everything and know where everything is. There aren't mines and conisters of Sarin just laying around.


I think alot of the reason for the war is political, I mean to say that the average US citizen thinks its Marines should die for Iraqi freedom would be a little crazy. Now on the broader side of that should US Marines die for increased National security by having a crazy, ruthless, egotistacal, murdering, manipulative dictator out of the middle east sounds more logical. I honestly feel the Iragi "freedom" is a by product of political and financial agenda. To think that a country as rich as Iraq will not benefit some US private and public interests is unrealistic. To say that there will not be some political control by the US in Iraq and Afganistan is unrealistic. There is one glaring negative to all this and that is the US complete support for Isreal. I understand it but something has to be down Isreal is punishing the palistens for a minority of Fundementalists and wonders why they support them!!

On the positive side do you honestly think that the average Iraq, Afganistan person is not going to have a WAAAAY better standard of living? There country is rich in money AND history and culture and it is about time they benefited from it! Not a bad by product IMHO

But I agree the US government has done some crazy things I mean we supplied Iraq with munition to fight the weapons we supplied to Iran WTF????

 

Very nice thread IMO.

97TA-WS6-Con- Very nicely put imo.


I personally do not feel that we should have sat on our hands for months after months while we get jerked around by our shorthairs. I.E. Ohhhh sorry we do have some missles our bad lets crush one a day. Ohhh sorry we do have a little support for terrorist cells our bad lets support them some more.

I am all for the US and Britian for invading, but on the same note it is sad that all the women, children and Soldiers will die and or get hurt.

It is kinda suprising that most of the countries that did not support the war had something to do with supporting in some way the Iraqies.(sp)

I guess I have a little diff view on these things, cause I do have many freinds now fighting over in Iraq and that could die trying to make Iraq free.

I am a Proud American and if few have to die to make someone get what I have (Freedom ) then so be it. Isn't it nice to be able to say what you feel. Protest if you choose to. Say what you feel needs to be changed and VOTE to make it happen.

Steven

 

Thank-You, and yes you raise some good points as well. So far I've enjoyed this thread because we aren't getting hotheaded, etc
lets keep that up and have a good discussio on this.


Besides a greedy dictator, the Iraqis in particular have something against them that is beyond their control and is through no fault of their own. The Sanctions against them. With no external trade allowed in oil, their most abundant and valuable resource, except for exchange of food, etc they have had no economy. I believe that if those sanctions like the sanctions against Cuba, which I'm not going to go into, were lifted not only would the Iraqi economy start to move but the standard of living would rise. This would allow the people who are already suffering to gain strength and fight back. They are too busy trying to survive to fight Saddam. I think, although it would take more time, it would have been a better, less chaotic, and more peaceful solution to all of this. Look at the countries that have had sanctions put against them. They are all struggling. And I have to say this.... This is an example of why the US Foreign Policy MUST change, and this is the perfect example of why people dislike them. People just want to be left alone to live their life. They don't want to be struggling for years and years because you cannot sell what you have even though there is a demand for it. This will only create a black market and as a result an entire country willing to break rules to get ahead in life. They become desensitized to what is right and what is wrong.
A friend of mine who came to Canada from Iraq said to me" Do you know what it was like to watch American shows and see the awesome and wonderful things that they had on TV, and then have to go back to work struggling to put food on the table?" He also said " It felt as if even the poorest people there had someone who would pay for food and shelter. Here it was be able to work or die"
My opinion, that sucks.

 

Yes unfortunately when the sanctions were put on to punish Iraq leaders for not complying with the sieze fire agreement it punished the people more than the regime which is wealthy enough to still get by.

But to your real arguement I say this: this is not a new thing, Saddam tried to invade a small country that could not defend itself the UN at that time protected it. Saddam was allowed to retain control of his country on the basis of the agreement he had 12 YEARS to comply when the oringnal was much less. The guy is crazy and its good that he is gone. HE MAY NOT HAVE ANY WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION BECAUSE HE USED IT ALL ON HIS OWN PEOPLE!!!!!

I think your arguement is flawed if sanctions were released, it would never be right it may have been better but not right. On the only people it would have been good for is the Sunni arabs the majority kurds and Shiets (sp?) would have been appressed.

Plus if Saddam had resources to built the government and palaces he did everywhere he had resources to better his peoples standard of living. Left on his own he could have been another Hitler. Actually Scarier considering the Nuclear and terrist threat we have today. I've been to NY and seen the hole the threat is real.

 

BTW I agree I was worried about this thread even from the title I thought this was going to be one of those crazy threads and it has actually been a very enjoyable one. Too bad the subject is such a horrible one

 

Here is the problem Sandeep. In a dictatorial political environment, the wealth does not filter down to the people. The wealth of Arab countries, China, Cuba etc continues to reside with the ruling elite and their beaurucrats. They steal the wealth of the country for their benefit.

Of course it may well be argued that their are stinkingly wealthy people in the USA and very poor, but those people had to EARN it. They did not STEAL it - notwithstanding the complaints of the loony left.

I will agree that the sanctions resultin a negative impact on the huddled masses and that the ruling elite continue to live in luxury. But the idea is to try and encourage the people to make changes themselves, as difficult as that often is. What else can the civilized world to indicate its distain for despotic leaders. Unfettered trade merely allows those despots more resources to squander on themselves.

The "Oil for food" program was a reasonable concession. You give us oil, we'll deliver you food and medicine. Seems reasonable to me.

It may be argued by some that this was a war of two egos. Maybe so, but the consequences of Bush UNDERESTIMATING Saddam were too expensive to gamble with.

Lennon had a moving peace song that we all know, Imagine.

Can you imagine the joy, happiness, wealth, security, FREEDOM that the world would enjoy if every country had the democracy, freedom of expression, of religon, free market capitalism of countries such as Canada, USA, Britain, Australia etc.

Capitalism and Democracy may not be the BEST option but it is a LONG way ahead of whatever comes second.

What if this change in Iraq were to lead to the peoples of ALL Arab states - nearly all of which are NOT democracies - to look toward their political leadership and say, "we want a change here too"?

The next few weeks are key. I believe that the US is doing everything it can to reassure the people of Iraq that they have no interest in hanging around. If people will just play ball with the States, I'm sure they will withdraw as quickly as possible.

PS: Again, I agree that the unswerving US support of Isreal is an issue. in much the same way that the US complains about Frances intransigence (sic), the US can justifyably be critiqued in their support of Isreal.

 

 

Hey what did Iraq have to do with 911? We condemning all arabs now? Because I thought the people envolved in 911 were afghanies and didn't the U.S already "liberate" that country?

So does this mean Canadians are the same as americans because we speak the same language and for the most part look the same? Uh oh...

I'm still a proud Canadian and will always keep my small Canadian flag sewed on my backpack to represent.

 

Well Guys this has been very civil

I will keep it that way.

Lets start off with i have no hard feeling for anyone and or there opinions. Then again i served for 14 years in the military so you could have them! I served in several Country's including Korea. I hated it there. We used to joke the biggest reason we were still there was to keep south Korea from invading North Korea and pissing off China. Everyone here SHOULD have a good fear off fighting China for any reason.

We were well versed in kill Ratios. Where I was at we had the highest kill ration in the US forces. Fighting a like equiped enemy we were at 5 to 1. for every one of our tanks lost the enemy lost 5. This included all allied forces. Now apply this to China that litraly out number our trained forces 100 to 1!

You see North Korea under stands this and Knows with out China right now they would just be known as Korea

I am not happy we went in. On the other hand it needed done and needed done NOW! I wish a few countrys would have kept there word. those countrys are going to benifit as much if not MORE then the US and Britan for this action.

As far as France and Germany? Most of them can kiss my @$$! I was there last in 1988. the older people still remember what the US and Britan did for them and were very gracious to us. they younger crowd had no idea why the US and Britan were there and just hated us for it. France on the other hand has to be the most stuck up crappiest place on Earth IMHO!

I will Say the most moving place i have ever been on earth was General Goerge S Patons grave in Luxumberg. An entire DIVISION buried in formation. This Massive group of people gave there lives willingly so the rest of the world could live there's in freedom.

As far as the US being the patrol for the world? HELL NO!! How do you think I personaly feel paying for all this crap? We may live in a rich nation but it does not mean we are all rich! Then again if we do not do it who will? I suppose we could have let the whiners of the world hold us back another ten or more years. Then when he started Blowning up the rest of the world and destroying every thing including Canada what would we do then?

As for your PM there is no need to Appologize. For Eight years we had a lieing cheating thief in charge of our country Your PM can't be that bad can he

Again I respect your right to an opinion the differs from mine. Enough so that I put my life in the hands of my Military for 14 years and did what it took to keep it that way.

Good luck all!

 

Actually the majority of the hijackers were Saudis. Osama is a Saudi as well.

Kind of ironic that Saudi's are NOT harassed at the US border like Iranians and Iraqis are.

 

My question is, what did Iraq have to do with 911? Can you answer that?

You might not be able to answer that because you've been watching so much CNN that your brain now has 50 stars and 13 red/white stripes embedded into it's cerebral cortex.

It's always a race issue without racism there would be no war, no hunger, no hate, no violence.

 

Right up until the post above this had been a VERY interesting, articulate, thought provoking DEBATE with intellegent reasoning and arguments without any personal offense intended, expectated, interpretted or inflicted.

I would just as soon continue to see those who have useful and constructive comments to continue this interesting discussion. I feel it will be best served that people NOT waste time or energy either writing the avove comments OR responding to them.

For once lets leave such inflamatory rhetoric in one of the other lame a$$ posts that litter the boards.

I personally will not be responding to such posts. I would appreciate it if no one else did so as to not allow this thread to degenerate by those not willing to think before they type or at least not able to provide a thought provoking counter argument.

Shaun

 

Yes you are correct Shaun I actually deleted two of my replies (they weren't that bad) but if anyone saw them I apologize for getting on the defensive

 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Muskys SS
[B]You can't down what chretian chose to do. We support the UN. And if it's not agreed upon by the UN then why should we go and fight.

Interesting point Shawn. Canada has entered conflicts contrary to UN resolutions. I believe Crotia was one such event.

I know we enter as a peace keeper but in the case of Croatia i believe the UN refused to pass a resolution that would have the UN intervene. The UN just let the civil war go on. Canada (and I assume some other countries) went in.

I know it is not the same situation but my point is, Canada has chosen to ignore UN resolutions before when we felt it was "right".