LT1 Based Engine Tech 1993-1997 LT1/LT4 Engine Related

Troubleshooting a no crank/no start situation

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Old Sep 19, 2023 | 04:06 PM
  #31  
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Re: Troubleshooting a no crank/no start situation

Originally Posted by Injuneer
The top hose on the throttle body supplies clean air to the positive crankcase ventilation (PCV) system. It connects to a plastic elbow pushed into a grommet on the back/top of the passenger side valve cover.

The lower connection on the throttle body is for the hose from the EVAP solenoid. Definitely do not want coolant attached there, and if that’s what they did it would certainly explain water getting into the combustion chambers and locking up the engine. On a 93/94 you pull the two hoses off the connections on the bottom plate of the throttle body and connect them together.

One hose comes in from the heater return line, see hose clamp labeled 6.

http://shbox.com/1/heater_hoses_93-94.jpg

…… and the other flows out to the complex assembly labeled 14 in this diagram:

http://shbox.com/1/93-94_hoses.jpg

OK, now that I went down and had a real good look, I think I can explain things better.

In your second picture, where the return out to the weird #14 all on the driver side, all that is like it is in the picture.

The heater core return to water pump is like the one in the diagram, with a tee and pressure relief valve. It goes to the bottom nipple on the throttle body, and from what I can tell from that picture, does what it is supposed to. From looking at another site, I should be correct in saying that this is the inlet port for the throttle body. It's a 90 degree metal nipple.

As far as I can tell, here are the differences from stock:
Instead of the middle port of the throttle body going to the EVAP solenoid, it is being routed to what appears should be where the "steam pipe" goes into the radiator - just below the coolant overflow hose. The port on the solenoid and the steam pipe are disconnected from anything.

So, unless I am mistaken, the "steam" relief for the heads is just sitting open between the intake and the pass head (probably not a great idea). For some reason it was decided to route the line that was supposed to go to the EVAP solenoid to the radiator. What you're thinking I should do is put it back to stock?

Last edited by It's Cochese!; Sep 19, 2023 at 04:21 PM.
Old Sep 19, 2023 | 06:33 PM
  #32  
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Re: Troubleshooting a no crank/no start situation

Currently:


Old Sep 19, 2023 | 08:33 PM
  #33  
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Re: Troubleshooting a no crank/no start situation

Originally Posted by It's Cochese!
OK, now that I went down and had a real good look, I think I can explain things better.

In your second picture, where the return out to the weird #14 all on the driver side, all that is like it is in the picture.

The heater core return to water pump is like the one in the diagram, with a tee and pressure relief valve. It goes to the bottom nipple on the throttle body, and from what I can tell from that picture, does what it is supposed to. From looking at another site, I should be correct in saying that this is the inlet port for the throttle body. It's a 90 degree metal nipple.
The coolant inlet is on the left side in this photo (90° elbow), the coolant outlet is on the right. It's an aftermarket throttle body, but the bottom plate is from a stock LT1 throttle body. There's vacuum caps on the throttle body pipes, because I bypassed the coolant. No vacuum involved, just a convenient way to plug the ends of the connections.

https://www.camaroz28.com/g/picture/13793478

As far as I can tell, here are the differences from stock:
Instead of the middle port of the throttle body going to the EVAP solenoid, it is being routed to what appears should be where the "steam pipe" goes into the radiator - just below the coolant overflow hose. The port on the solenoid and the steam pipe are disconnected from anything.

So, unless I am mistaken, the "steam" relief for the heads is just sitting open between the intake and the pass head (probably not a great idea). For some reason it was decided to route the line that was supposed to go to the EVAP solenoid to the radiator. What you're thinking I should do is put it back to stock?
Everything has to be reconnected per the heater hose diagram and the radiator hose diagrams. In 93/94 the end of the steam pipe from the back of the heads gets one end of the hose and the connection below the overflow connection on the fill neck gets the other end. That changed for 1995-97, but that's not important.

I wish you were located closer… I could probably point out most of the “defects” in a couple hours. You’ve got a lot of work ahead of you. You have to verify the PASS-Key II (VATS) system, the fuel system, and the ignition system before that thing is going to start.

Old Sep 19, 2023 | 09:04 PM
  #34  
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Re: Troubleshooting a no crank/no start situation

Originally Posted by Injuneer
The coolant inlet is on the left side in this photo (90° elbow), the coolant outlet is on the right. It's an aftermarket throttle body, but the bottom plate is from a stock LT1 throttle body. There's vacuum caps on the throttle body pipes, because I bypassed the coolant. No vacuum involved, just a convenient way to plug the ends of the connections.

https://www.camaroz28.com/g/picture/13793478



Everything has to be reconnected per the heater hose diagram and the radiator hose diagrams. In 93/94 the end of the steam pipe from the back of the heads gets one end of the hose and the connection below the overflow connection on the fill neck gets the other end. That changed for 1995-97, but that's not important.

I wish you were located closer… I could probably point out most of the “defects” in a couple hours. You’ve got a lot of work ahead of you. You have to verify the PASS-Key II (VATS) system, the fuel system, and the ignition system before that thing is going to start.
I will get those two connections right tomorrow.

You have been a great help this far and I really appreciate it. I will continue to take any help you can give.

For VATS, the security light does go off after three seconds, but I will look in the repair manual about it. I was planning on testing fuel pressure, and I was considering a compression test. Anything in those two videos that caught your ear? I’m still a bit concerned that it isn’t spinning as fast as any other LT1 I’ve heard on crank.
Old Sep 20, 2023 | 10:42 AM
  #35  
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Re: Troubleshooting a no crank/no start situation

I have borrowed a fuel pressure gauge and a noid kit. I hope to put questions to bed about fuel delivery today, at least as many as I can.
Old Sep 20, 2023 | 11:43 AM
  #36  
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Re: Troubleshooting a no crank/no start situation

Turn key to run, pump primes for 2-second and shuts off. Pressure should reach at least 40 PSI, and drop very slowly after the pump shuts off.

Old Sep 20, 2023 | 02:08 PM
  #37  
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Re: Troubleshooting a no crank/no start situation

Pressure was right about 40psi, and only fluctuated a little while cranking. 1 or 2psi.

Checked the IAC harness, got nominal readings for A,C, and D. B I was a little worried about, but on jumper cables I did hit 1V.

This is our testing of spark from the coil.

Old Sep 20, 2023 | 07:15 PM
  #38  
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Re: Troubleshooting a no crank/no start situation

Some weirdness tonight.

After testing resistance on the battery and ground earlier, I had the bright idea to test resistance from the positive terminal to the wires on the ignition junction. Bad. So I cleaned all that up, and got down to almost none. It might have been my imagination, but it sounded like the starter had a bit more pep.

That wasn't the weird bit. What was weird was I was testing the injector pulses with the noid, starting with the odds. 1,3,5,7 all tested good. 2 tested good. 4 did not light. Went back to 2. Didn't light. 3 didn't light.

Waited a bit, and tested again. 8 tested good. Six tested good. Four did not. Two did not. 5 dfd not.

Waited another round, tested 1, 3. Good. 4, bad. 1 bad.

Tried starting with starter fluid after the ignition resistance was lessened, nada. It did seem like it might want to start, the best it's sounded thus far.

I'm stumped at the injectors.
Old Sep 20, 2023 | 11:31 PM
  #39  
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Re: Troubleshooting a no crank/no start situation

Each injector gets key on constant 12 volts on the pink wire in the injector connector. Check each pink wire for 12 volts while jiggling the harness. The PCM supplies a ground to each injector on the (color)/black wire to fire the injector. The resistance of each injector should be in the range (roughly) of 12-16 ohms. Circuit failure could be loss of 12 volts, loss of ground, or intermittent open injector. A circuit failure sets code DTC 18, but does not tell you which injector circuit(s) set the code.
Old Sep 20, 2023 | 11:43 PM
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Re: Troubleshooting a no crank/no start situation

Originally Posted by Injuneer
Each injector gets key on constant 12 volts on the pink wire in the injector connector. Check each pink wire for 12 volts while jiggling the harness. The PCM supplies a ground to each injector on the (color)/black wire to fire the injector. The resistance of each injector should be in the range (roughly) of 12-16 ohms. Circuit failure could be loss of 12 volts, loss of ground, or intermittent open injector. A circuit failure sets code DTC 18, but does not tell you which injector circuit(s) set the code.
Thank you, that is on the punch list for Thursday.

I have read about a hundred different forum posts on various issues that might have a relation to my situation. I thought I read somewhere that if the injectors failed to fire, the spark would as well?

Also, I am going to retest the ICM harness tomorrow, how concerned should I be for a reading that barely or does not reach 1VAC on B?
Old Sep 21, 2023 | 02:16 PM
  #41  
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Re: Troubleshooting a no crank/no start situation

Felt really burnt out today, so I shifted focus. The tail panel was looking really dingy with the homemade blackout, and the clear taillights just needed to come off the car. So I did a passable repaint on the panel, and new taillights will be here tomorrow.

I checked the plug wires, hoping that I just had been stupid and wired them up out of order. Doesn't appear that way. They were a bit cracked in places, so I decided that this weekend I would do the compression test and go ahead and replace the wires. At this point any voltage that isn't getting to the spark plugs, real or imagined, doesn't help.

After my son gets home I am going to retest the injectors, pulse and 12v. Between that, and the plugs showing some fuel on them, should put to bed the fuel side of things outside of the Opti/PCM.
Old Sep 21, 2023 | 05:13 PM
  #42  
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Re: Troubleshooting a no crank/no start situation

Is it possible that a previous owner either put on a bad Opti, or put one on wrong? The symptoms seem to be similar - spark, fuel, no start.

https://ls1tech.com/forums/lt1-lt4-modifications/1169758-95-lt1-timing-while-installing-optispark.html

Last edited by It's Cochese!; Sep 21, 2023 at 05:34 PM.
Old Sep 21, 2023 | 07:55 PM
  #43  
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Re: Troubleshooting a no crank/no start situation

Latest information:

I wanted to return the noid light set tonight, so we re-tested. #4 did not get a pulse on any test we did. Each time we would get a good one, another random one after that (usually on the same rail) would not pulse immediately after. It would take a key out-key in process, usually with a little bit of a wait, to get another one to pulse. All of these injector plugs got 12v on the supply line. I do smell at least some amount of gas being dumped, or else I smell it out of the Schrader valve, but it's only after a crank attempt.

This is the spark test, happened to be #4 again, because it is easy. Good continuity between tester and a ground. Shirt between tester and A/C lines to make sure it didn't find an easier path. About 25k on the gap. I think the spark is a bit weak and inconsistent, but I absolutely am not an expert here.


Old Sep 21, 2023 | 10:48 PM
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Re: Troubleshooting a no crank/no start situation

The splined drive shaft, unvented 93/94 Opti gets installed incorrectly about 10% of the time. In theory, it can't be assembled wrong. One of the spaces between the splines is unique, so the shaft only inserts into the cam sprocket in one position, insuring correct timing. I've seen people swear they installed it right “because it can’t be assembled wrong”, and they find are dead wrong when they check the install. I think some people get the splines misaligned, the Opti won’t slip on with a bit of hand pressure, so the pull the Opti down against the timing cover using force on the mounting bolts.

http://shbox.com/1/93-94_opti.jpg

So somehow it gets installed incorrectly. But typically even when misaligned, you will get some indication of the cylinders firing - pops and backfires, maybe even starting, but running poorly. I've also read posts where a cheap Opti was found to have the splined shaft installed incorrectly into the back of the Opti, or the rotor somehow misaligned. Cheap Chinese junk Opti’s can be defective right out of the box. I've even seen confirmed reports of the MSD units being bad out of the box, including a few units “rebuilt” and returned to the owner under warranty.
Old Sep 22, 2023 | 08:56 AM
  #45  
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Re: Troubleshooting a no crank/no start situation

Originally Posted by Injuneer
The splined drive shaft, unvented 93/94 Opti gets installed incorrectly about 10% of the time. In theory, it can't be assembled wrong. One of the spaces between the splines is unique, so the shaft only inserts into the cam sprocket in one position, insuring correct timing. I've seen people swear they installed it right “because it can’t be assembled wrong”, and they find are dead wrong when they check the install. I think some people get the splines misaligned, the Opti won’t slip on with a bit of hand pressure, so the pull the Opti down against the timing cover using force on the mounting bolts.

http://shbox.com/1/93-94_opti.jpg

So somehow it gets installed incorrectly. But typically even when misaligned, you will get some indication of the cylinders firing - pops and backfires, maybe even starting, but running poorly. I've also read posts where a cheap Opti was found to have the splined shaft installed incorrectly into the back of the Opti, or the rotor somehow misaligned. Cheap Chinese junk Opti’s can be defective right out of the box. I've even seen confirmed reports of the MSD units being bad out of the box, including a few units “rebuilt” and returned to the owner under warranty.
One thing I like to think of myself is being a student, and one thing I do really well is research. I have read many threads on this site that have similar issues to me, that you have responded to. A consistent question is, "does the tach move?" I'm not the one who has been cranking the car recently, but every time I have I have never seen the tach move more than just a twitch - best described as the minimum amount a needle could move without being still. Measured in single digit RPMs if at all. Not the couple hundred you have consistently referred to. Security light does shut off after about three seconds. Fuel pump runs, 40psi at rail. 12v+ on battery. Appears to be good spark at coil, not so much at plug.

The other part of this that I wanted to bring back up was the B connector on the ICM, getting 1-4VAC. The first test I did, it did not reach 1V. On the second one, it only just reached 1VAC. I plan on running a retest today.

I have noticed some fine rust in various places, along with the rust you would usually associate with a 30 year old car. Nothing that really looks like it had been in a flood or lived in the Midwest, but not pristine. I noticed poor resistance numbers across the junction block, so I cleaned that up so that resistance was down to virtually nothing. It did not take much, just some swipes with a brass brush. Did the same on the ground at the coil. I think it would be a good idea for my next task to clean the other PCM ground, and the starter connections. Depending on how much more trouble it is, I will also get the starter tested since I am under there anyway. I still need to fix the EVAP/steam pipe stuff. Any reason why rubber, fuel hose-type rigidity won't work?

Compression test is still in the cards, mostly just because I'll know. Also will give me the opportunity to check the plugs again, see if fuel got to them. I gave in and ordered an ALDL cable so I can talk to the computer. That might be here by next weekend.



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