ok so my car won't start. I just finished up my LT header install and went to star the car and it didn't start and i heard chattering. I tried a few more times to start it and then all it did was make a ckick ound. I tried reinstalling the starter and moving it around to try and get it to start but no luck. I then took the starter out of the car and hooked it up to a portable jumper that i have. I got the solinoid to pop the gear out and to get the motor to spin the gear so i figured it wasn't broken and just needed to be shimmed. I bought a shim kit and tried every compination of double and single shims. I also started checking voltage at the soleniod when cranking and was getting voltage, although it jumped arpound too much before i could get a clear reading. My battery is new and fully charged the lights are bright in the car and dim slightly when i try to start the car.

Could my starter be broken even thought i got it to work outside of the car with my portable jumper?

 

What happens if you apply a jumper between the postive battery post and the starter solenoid (the small wire)? If it engages and cranks, you the know the problem is in your ignition circuit. If it does not, it could be a problem with the battery cables since your starter seems towork on the bench. Check the ground connection on the passenger side bottom of the block near the front of the block. Could be loose.

Also check for corrosion inside the crimper terminal ends of the battery cables. The only way to accurately test is to measure the voltage across the length of each battery cable during cranking. It should be very low (i.e. <.2) If it is higher (like 1 volt) you have a bad cable.

 

ok before i read you post i hooked up that portal jumper to my starter negative on case and the positive on the big lug with a wire with a switch connecting the big lug with the small lug and it cranked!

So i'm gonna try you suggestion connecting a jumper cable or wire from the positive battery terminal and the small lug.

So if its not the ignition circuit i can test each battery cable by connecting a jumper cable from the battery + to the starter Big lug for the positive cable and the - to the starter Case to test the ground?

If so i might use a battery that i know works from another car or my portable starter

 

ok so i bypassed the ignition circut by connection the big lug and the small lug on the starter and put the key in the car and flipped the switch that i connected to the wire connecting the big lug an small lug at it started! Thanks for the idea man

Ok so i have some problem in the ignition circuit so where should i look for a problem?

 

I am having deja vu because I have been where you are. For clarity, let's recap. You have proven that your main power source (ie battery cables) are working and that you are not getting the 12 volt trigger from the ignition circuit.

The next step is to measure the voltage on the trigger wire at the starter when you turn the key to the start position. You need to do this under load which means the wire needs to be connected to the starter when you measure it. Put the ground test lead on the block (make sure you have a clean connection) and the positive test lead right on the starter ignition terminal (small wire connection).

In my case I was getting voltage (but about 1 volt less than battery voltage) and all I would get was a "click". It turned out to be a poor connection at the after market starter kill relay I installed.

When you turn the key, you should get very close to battery voltage. If you are a volt or so less than battery voltage, you have a poor connection somewhere. If you are getting no voltage, you have a broken connection.

The wire goes from your ignition switch mounted on the top of the steering column under the dashboard to the VATS relay mounted on the vertical metal bracket that forms the right side of the glove box opening. You will need to remove the glove box to access it. There are two identical relays, one for the VATS (theft deterrent) and one for the trunk (or maybe hatch in your case) release. They are located on the backside of the metal plate and a little difficult to get to.

You can apply a 12V jumper to the output pin of the relay socket and see if the starter cranks. This pin goes directly to the starter. If it cranks, the problem is upstream, in the relay or the wiring or the ignition switch.

Since the relays are identical, you can swap them to test if it is the relay. The other wires on the relay are a constant 12 volts, the trigger line from the ignition key and a ground. If you put a jumper from the 12V to the trigger input, you will simulate the ignition key being turned and if it cranks, you have ruled out the relay and the problem is in the wire from the ignition switch or the ignition switch itself.

The next step is to reassemble everything and pull the connector off the ignition switch. If you apply a 12V jumper to the pin that leads to the VATS relay and it cranks, the problem is with the ignition switch.

Hope this helps. Just don't assume you are looking for a complete short or complete opne circuit. Sometimes a small voltage drop in the circuit from dirty relay contacts, loose connectors, etc. can cause enough voltage drop to prevent cranking but you won't see this unless you measure voltage under load.

Let us know how you make out!

Jeff

 

ok so i connected a 12v jumper to the Vats relay on the pin thats connected to the wire going to the starter and it didn't start. So i figure i found it and start pulling the wire out and looking at it trying to find a tear or something in it. Nothin. I check the length of the wire with the ohm meter and i get a reading of like.1 so i'm good there. I figure i'd try it again but this time with my "mystery wire" taken off the starter small lug. It started. I then put the relay back on and turned the key and the car started.

What is this mystery wire? One end is connected to the small lug on the starter and the other is splicedinto two black wires with a white strip that leads to the connecter conected to the computer "red" terminal. Any ideas?

I thought it might be part of my viper alarm system but i called the place i got it installed in and they said that it isn't part of the system.

 

Unfortunatley I am at work and don't have my schematics with me to identify the wire you mentioned. Does the car consistently start now that you removed that wire?

Could there have been a short to ground in the wire from the VATS realy to the starter that you cleared when moving the wires around? Does the problem come back when you reattach the mystery wire?

 

yes the car does conisistantly start now that i disconnected that wire. I also disconnected this wire when i started the car with the jumper cable connected to teh positive battery terminal.

I do have the full service manual but i'm not sure if i'm reading it right. It says that those wires which are actually a black wire with a white stripe going to the "grey" terminal and a black with a white stipe going to the "grey" are pcm grounds? there marked in the manual as connector a, b, c, d, instread of red, grey etc..

when i tested the small lug with the volt meter( one of the case of the starter and one of the small lug) i would always get a reading of .5 or so volts with the key just in the "on" position (not the "start" position) I donno if that would be related

I'll recheck the whole wire going from the vats relay to the starter but I still wanna figure out what this mystery wire is. I didn't put it there it must have been someone who owned the car before me because the way the wires are spliced into the wires in the wire loom doesn't seem very stock (with a black crimp tube with a yellow stripe)

 

ok i might have figured it out.

this "mystery wire" is the pcm ground that is isposed to connect to the block. Wow ok i'm an idiot. Anyway this is definately i good example of what can happen when you don't mark where things go. thanks alot for your help. atleast this post will be a good trouble shooting guide for people that can't start their cars. thanks alot for your help it really helped me out

 

Glad we could help. I never realized how sensitive the ignition circuit could be until I had my issue with the starter kill relay. My whole problem was caused by using crimp terminals to connect to the relay. Those things are not really designed to carry higher current loads like the starter solenoid. They are intended more for audio signals. What made it stranger is that it worked for 10 years and then finally stopped even though there was no corrosion.

Electrical problems are usually about the subtle things (ie corroded ground connection, loose connections, pinched wires, etc.).

Good luck!

Jeff