Pro's & Con's of porting the LT1/LT4 intake
Thread Starter
Registered User
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 1,942
From: kitchener/Ontario
Bret,
this intake could it be the LT1 or LT4 intake..or do you want the LT4 ...then would this work with the LT1 heads...
How versatile is this intake, do you think there will be a need to up gread, how would this intake compare to a carb style intake..
this intake could it be the LT1 or LT4 intake..or do you want the LT4 ...then would this work with the LT1 heads...
How versatile is this intake, do you think there will be a need to up gread, how would this intake compare to a carb style intake..
Banned
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 6,518
Originally posted by Schurters LT1
Bret,
this intake could it be the LT1 or LT4 intake..or do you want the LT4 ...then would this work with the LT1 heads...
How versatile is this intake, do you think there will be a need to up gread, how would this intake compare to a carb style intake..
Bret,
this intake could it be the LT1 or LT4 intake..or do you want the LT4 ...then would this work with the LT1 heads...
How versatile is this intake, do you think there will be a need to up gread, how would this intake compare to a carb style intake..
Bret
Registered User
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 1,462
From: smog zone adjacent to a great lake
Originally posted by SStrokerAce
...but since this setup is going to need the core intake, the injector rails and a good amount of machining, fabricating and welding....
...but since this setup is going to need the core intake, the injector rails and a good amount of machining, fabricating and welding....
Originally posted by SStrokerAce
Not a LT based intake and it's not a carb intake. More like a sheetmetal intake.
Not a LT based intake and it's not a carb intake. More like a sheetmetal intake.
Guess not what I had originally envisioned.
Banned
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 6,518
It starts off using a SBC intake as a core rather than a LT1 intake so, if you have a LT1 or LT4 intake it's not needed as a core.
The next step is to drop it on a 383, first lets get the Heads/Cam 350 done since that's a more likely use then the 383/396 guys would be next.
It will be very close to a stock LT1 head or ported as is, and it can be port matched but yeah the only proper way to do that is to have the heads here to do it. The good thing is that it doesn't need to be port matched to work, so that's a good deal.
I'm also going to have a cam matched up to it per the customers combination of course. Ultimately you can get the intake, the intake and cam/valvetrain kit and a intake/heads/cam/valvetrain kit.
I'm glad to see there is interest in this setup, really the big problem with LT1's is the intake manifold, if that problem can be fixed then it's going to be a much stronger motor where the LS1 guys (like myself) should worry about it.
Bret
The next step is to drop it on a 383, first lets get the Heads/Cam 350 done since that's a more likely use then the 383/396 guys would be next.
It will be very close to a stock LT1 head or ported as is, and it can be port matched but yeah the only proper way to do that is to have the heads here to do it. The good thing is that it doesn't need to be port matched to work, so that's a good deal.
I'm also going to have a cam matched up to it per the customers combination of course. Ultimately you can get the intake, the intake and cam/valvetrain kit and a intake/heads/cam/valvetrain kit.
I'm glad to see there is interest in this setup, really the big problem with LT1's is the intake manifold, if that problem can be fixed then it's going to be a much stronger motor where the LS1 guys (like myself) should worry about it.
Bret
Last edited by SStrokerAce; May 20, 2004 at 05:48 PM.
Thread Starter
Registered User
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 1,942
From: kitchener/Ontario
Sounds sweet Bret,
Now i have to do my thinking all over now....
When you are finshed the intake are you going to post before and after numbers so we can see real world numbers...
With this intake , As i have the LT1 heads now, and say up gread to 210/220 AFR's will the intake still work.....
What about pluming it for NOS
Is this intake a bolt IN....
Bret as i was talking to you about Cam's...would this be the better way to go for me ....as i am after more TQ & HP....
YOu said there was another intake you are working on as well...any info on that one????
Now i have to do my thinking all over now....
When you are finshed the intake are you going to post before and after numbers so we can see real world numbers...
With this intake , As i have the LT1 heads now, and say up gread to 210/220 AFR's will the intake still work.....
What about pluming it for NOS
Is this intake a bolt IN....
Bret as i was talking to you about Cam's...would this be the better way to go for me ....as i am after more TQ & HP....
YOu said there was another intake you are working on as well...any info on that one????
Registered User
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 1,429
From: plano texas
Man I dont think there is an lt1 owner who wouldnt be interested. May even deserve more than just a little post that 95% of the board is gonna miss, possibly a sticky when you come up with something and get numbers...
Banned
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 6,518
Yeah that's the thing I am scared of is too much demand for them. Then either I get swamped with them or have the price high enough to keep me busy & happy. Or get the parts all CNC machined how I want them and then just do less work and sell more of them. That's all about demand though, not going CNC if the volume is low like most intake work is.
The intake is going to like a cam to work with it. Plain and simple, engines are a system and getting all the pieces right is the way to make power. Look at the guys who know what they are doing and who make big power. Some of the guys that are impressive to me are Joe O, Rich Krause and Mindgame, those guys could be engine builders if they wanted to run a bussiness doing that (which is harder said than done) and they have the most impressive motors here IMHO. All of those guys understand that it's a combo not just a pile of parts put together. They also know what they can and can't do, but then again they also understand what's going on in the motor. Other guys who have fast combos either copy someone elses work (which BTW is lame to me, first copycat is also the first loser) or they get the help they need to go fast from people who know what they are doing. I might add FASTFATBOY to that list of impressive stuff later on since his old man knows WTF is going on too, I still want to see that bad boy run!
The whole idea of this intake is to have a relatively bolt on item that will improve on the LT1 design in areas that it is lacking. There is not going to be EGR, but things like vaccum lines and MAP sensors and stock style TB's will work. I still don't know how close the TB and intake ducting is going to line up, but it's not going to be too far off from stock.
The big key here is what's next. Previously we had the supposedly bad *** heads out there that flowed 255-260cfm (I know I've flowed them), now we have an honest 270cfm LT1 head, so we have some improvements there. Before the HotCam, CC305 and CC306 were the cams of choice, now the 847, some of Joe O's stuff (when he does it) and some of the things I have seen/done are improving on the cam area. We still have AFR's even though bare castings are $940-$1025 a set, but with the TFS introduction I think we are getting even closer to better head setups too.
Now the next step is some better TFS and LT1 porting developments, mainly that's getting guys into doing them that work on higher end racing stuff and have them do some development. Things like new valve seats in LT1 heads so we can do 2.055 valves needs to become a norm and to have guys not bitch that a better head costs more. If it's me I want better valvetrain parts in them too, not the cheapest spring that will get the job done. The TFS heads are going to be the choice later on for strokers and boosted setups, just because with a 2.055 or 2.08 valve and a quality port job they are going to move air like a ported AFR 210 would. Still not 215 RR and 18* deg stuff, but then again that stuff can out power the block and over rev the RPM limit of the stock computer.
Intake manifold development is the farthest behind out of everything. Compare a SBC to a LT1. The first thing a SBC guy did is change his intake, LT1 guys have no choices and the power demand now is asking for that change. It's a good place to be in since LS1 guys really have no place to go beyond the LSX FAST intake. The only good way to improve on the LT1 intake is to weld up the intake and go at it. The pictures of Jordan's work above is about what I am talking about. I think he does a better job than most guys do, and I know when I do a LT1 or LT4 intake for a car it's going to be welded and ported to maintain constant cross section and straight parallel walls, not something easy to do most times. Even then a stock intake is only going to get you so much since it is just limited in what can be done to it. You can go from a stock intake, to a welded and ported one, to a extensively worked one to a better setup. Every step there goes up in price and performance.
Once we start getting 450-500rwhp heads/cam/intake cars and 500rwhp strokers then we are going to be at an area where things are decent IMHO. I don't think we are going to get to the Mustang territory with big blowers and what not with LT1 blocks since there is no drag racing classes and organizations out there to fuel it all. The only way to not go broke fixing engines here is if guys go to aftermarket blocks like the Ford guys do, then big power and really impressive drag times will happen, but there is no money in it so it's only lame bragging rights. I know we all like bragging rights to a point if you want to go racing, get a 5.0L and a Dart Block and some Edelbrock Victor castings and then we are talking. To me bragging rights with LT1's is really strong "street cars" not some nitrous hungry motor that eats main bearings and cranks for lunch every run. That doesn't apply to 95% of the guys here, 370rwhp cam only setups, 450rwhp heads/cam cars and 500rwhp strokers that are STREET CARS apply. Hell 600-700hp boosted street motors are cool too!
I know this was rambling and excuse me for it. The good thing about LT1's is that they are a cheap place to start and you can get into modding them quickly because they don't require as big of a car payment if any at all. True I drive a LS1, because I like the engine design and at one point I will have a circle track esque street motor in it that has instant throttle response and stupid power, but untill the Mustang in the next lane pulls up and makes me look stupid and the guy is driving that thing to work that day and everyday I'm not going to worry about it.
Ok so back to the intakes........(Since it's good to get some feedback from you guys)
What is a decent price for gaining 15% average power? This means with the all out head/cam setups take both numbers (rwTQ and the rwHP) and multiply them by 1.1-1.15, what is that kind of power worth to you? I know how much labor it's going to take to make that, but if it prevents a 383 build or a aftermarket head setup then whats it worth? AFR's done right are $2500-$3000, a good street 383 is going to be $4000-6000.
Bret
The intake is going to like a cam to work with it. Plain and simple, engines are a system and getting all the pieces right is the way to make power. Look at the guys who know what they are doing and who make big power. Some of the guys that are impressive to me are Joe O, Rich Krause and Mindgame, those guys could be engine builders if they wanted to run a bussiness doing that (which is harder said than done) and they have the most impressive motors here IMHO. All of those guys understand that it's a combo not just a pile of parts put together. They also know what they can and can't do, but then again they also understand what's going on in the motor. Other guys who have fast combos either copy someone elses work (which BTW is lame to me, first copycat is also the first loser) or they get the help they need to go fast from people who know what they are doing. I might add FASTFATBOY to that list of impressive stuff later on since his old man knows WTF is going on too, I still want to see that bad boy run!
The whole idea of this intake is to have a relatively bolt on item that will improve on the LT1 design in areas that it is lacking. There is not going to be EGR, but things like vaccum lines and MAP sensors and stock style TB's will work. I still don't know how close the TB and intake ducting is going to line up, but it's not going to be too far off from stock.
The big key here is what's next. Previously we had the supposedly bad *** heads out there that flowed 255-260cfm (I know I've flowed them), now we have an honest 270cfm LT1 head, so we have some improvements there. Before the HotCam, CC305 and CC306 were the cams of choice, now the 847, some of Joe O's stuff (when he does it) and some of the things I have seen/done are improving on the cam area. We still have AFR's even though bare castings are $940-$1025 a set, but with the TFS introduction I think we are getting even closer to better head setups too.
Now the next step is some better TFS and LT1 porting developments, mainly that's getting guys into doing them that work on higher end racing stuff and have them do some development. Things like new valve seats in LT1 heads so we can do 2.055 valves needs to become a norm and to have guys not bitch that a better head costs more. If it's me I want better valvetrain parts in them too, not the cheapest spring that will get the job done. The TFS heads are going to be the choice later on for strokers and boosted setups, just because with a 2.055 or 2.08 valve and a quality port job they are going to move air like a ported AFR 210 would. Still not 215 RR and 18* deg stuff, but then again that stuff can out power the block and over rev the RPM limit of the stock computer.
Intake manifold development is the farthest behind out of everything. Compare a SBC to a LT1. The first thing a SBC guy did is change his intake, LT1 guys have no choices and the power demand now is asking for that change. It's a good place to be in since LS1 guys really have no place to go beyond the LSX FAST intake. The only good way to improve on the LT1 intake is to weld up the intake and go at it. The pictures of Jordan's work above is about what I am talking about. I think he does a better job than most guys do, and I know when I do a LT1 or LT4 intake for a car it's going to be welded and ported to maintain constant cross section and straight parallel walls, not something easy to do most times. Even then a stock intake is only going to get you so much since it is just limited in what can be done to it. You can go from a stock intake, to a welded and ported one, to a extensively worked one to a better setup. Every step there goes up in price and performance.
Once we start getting 450-500rwhp heads/cam/intake cars and 500rwhp strokers then we are going to be at an area where things are decent IMHO. I don't think we are going to get to the Mustang territory with big blowers and what not with LT1 blocks since there is no drag racing classes and organizations out there to fuel it all. The only way to not go broke fixing engines here is if guys go to aftermarket blocks like the Ford guys do, then big power and really impressive drag times will happen, but there is no money in it so it's only lame bragging rights. I know we all like bragging rights to a point if you want to go racing, get a 5.0L and a Dart Block and some Edelbrock Victor castings and then we are talking. To me bragging rights with LT1's is really strong "street cars" not some nitrous hungry motor that eats main bearings and cranks for lunch every run. That doesn't apply to 95% of the guys here, 370rwhp cam only setups, 450rwhp heads/cam cars and 500rwhp strokers that are STREET CARS apply. Hell 600-700hp boosted street motors are cool too!
I know this was rambling and excuse me for it. The good thing about LT1's is that they are a cheap place to start and you can get into modding them quickly because they don't require as big of a car payment if any at all. True I drive a LS1, because I like the engine design and at one point I will have a circle track esque street motor in it that has instant throttle response and stupid power, but untill the Mustang in the next lane pulls up and makes me look stupid and the guy is driving that thing to work that day and everyday I'm not going to worry about it.
Ok so back to the intakes........(Since it's good to get some feedback from you guys)
What is a decent price for gaining 15% average power? This means with the all out head/cam setups take both numbers (rwTQ and the rwHP) and multiply them by 1.1-1.15, what is that kind of power worth to you? I know how much labor it's going to take to make that, but if it prevents a 383 build or a aftermarket head setup then whats it worth? AFR's done right are $2500-$3000, a good street 383 is going to be $4000-6000.
Bret
