New Engine won't pass emissions, High NOX
11-16-2018, 02:55 PM
#61
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Re: New Engine won't pass emissions, High NOX
State run meaning one of those star certified ones? I believe so
I didn't watch too closely what they were checking though since the visual I didn't have a problem with
I didn't watch too closely what they were checking though since the visual I didn't have a problem with
11-16-2018, 03:20 PM
#63
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Re: New Engine won't pass emissions, High NOX
Oh that sounds like the state ref... They check everything. Def don't want to meet with them even if your car is good lol
He got a random notice? As I understand it there's a few ways the state ref would want to see you.
You get a ticket from a cop for an exhaust and he marks state ref if he wants to be a jerk or suspects that you modified the emissions ie the cat. A lot of cops don't know what they're looking at so if it's too loud they just send you to the ref sometimes.
Or I believe if you have some issue at a regular smog place they can escalate to the ref.
But I never heard of a random notice. Also the last option is someone could report you and rat you out if they think there's something to report and you might get called.
He got a random notice? As I understand it there's a few ways the state ref would want to see you.
You get a ticket from a cop for an exhaust and he marks state ref if he wants to be a jerk or suspects that you modified the emissions ie the cat. A lot of cops don't know what they're looking at so if it's too loud they just send you to the ref sometimes.
Or I believe if you have some issue at a regular smog place they can escalate to the ref.
But I never heard of a random notice. Also the last option is someone could report you and rat you out if they think there's something to report and you might get called.
11-17-2018, 11:38 AM
#65
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Re: New Engine won't pass emissions, High NOX
OP, FWIW I have a 96 OBD2 car. H/C 383, larger injectors, shorty headers, etc. Passing smog has always been a priority on any build/mod I have done as CA does have very strict emission standards vs other states
With that said the HC, CO & NOX thresholds have risen, lot lowered for me. Not much but they have. I would have thought the opposite.
In 06 (first year the smog reports showed specific measurements vs just a "pass/fail"). For the 15 & 25 mph on rollers in 06 they were HC 52 & 36. 2018 54 & 37. For CO .49 & .47. 2018 .50 & .47. NOX 425 & 712. In 2018 it is 430 & 717.
So for at least OBD2 they have not decreased but slightly increased. OBD1 IDK but at least you don't have to have the "plug in" test to see in IM monitors are ready like OBD2 cars. I have always had EGR and CAT heat show "not ready" and passed until 1/1/18 when CA changed to only allow 1 IM monitor to show not ready. I have EGR & CATS and they both work but has never shown ready in IM testing. PCM "adjustment" can rectify that by setting IM to always show "ready" even if you disconnect the battery.
IDK what your secret is about WTF the car did not pass previously to high NOX...but good it did for whatever reason you got it to.
IMHO you want to avoid a referee, they are more inclined to fail and go by the letter of the book.
I get the full colonic on CA smog tests. My vehicle is classified as a "high emitter profile" so I get visual, plug in and tail pipe. I have always passed and I attribute that to a solid mechanically running motor and a good tune...with the later leaving some power on the table to stay within emission levels with my 383. YMMV
With that said the HC, CO & NOX thresholds have risen, lot lowered for me. Not much but they have. I would have thought the opposite.
In 06 (first year the smog reports showed specific measurements vs just a "pass/fail"). For the 15 & 25 mph on rollers in 06 they were HC 52 & 36. 2018 54 & 37. For CO .49 & .47. 2018 .50 & .47. NOX 425 & 712. In 2018 it is 430 & 717.
So for at least OBD2 they have not decreased but slightly increased. OBD1 IDK but at least you don't have to have the "plug in" test to see in IM monitors are ready like OBD2 cars. I have always had EGR and CAT heat show "not ready" and passed until 1/1/18 when CA changed to only allow 1 IM monitor to show not ready. I have EGR & CATS and they both work but has never shown ready in IM testing. PCM "adjustment" can rectify that by setting IM to always show "ready" even if you disconnect the battery.
IDK what your secret is about WTF the car did not pass previously to high NOX...but good it did for whatever reason you got it to.
IMHO you want to avoid a referee, they are more inclined to fail and go by the letter of the book.
I get the full colonic on CA smog tests. My vehicle is classified as a "high emitter profile" so I get visual, plug in and tail pipe. I have always passed and I attribute that to a solid mechanically running motor and a good tune...with the later leaving some power on the table to stay within emission levels with my 383. YMMV
11-17-2018, 11:51 AM
#66
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Re: New Engine won't pass emissions, High NOX
HOT FLOORBOARDS:
To clarify - when you measure the outside of the metal exhaust pipe, you are not directly measuring the actual exhaust gas temperature. I tried to explain that. The outside of the pipe is going to be cooler than the exhaust gas inside it.
The exhaust gas has to be hot enough to keep the O2 sensors at 600-degF, or above, for the O2 sensors to work. During extended idle, the exhaust may not be hot enough to maintain this temperature. That's why 1994 and up have heated O2 sensors. The passenger side sensor is in the Y-pipe branch, about 1/2-way to the cat. The exhaust at the cat is going to be cooler than at the sensor. At higher engine loads, out on the road, exhaust gasses can easily reach 1,000-degF. The cat also generates heat when it oxidizes the unburned hydrocarbons and the carbon monoxide.
Does your car still have the catalytic converter heat shield installed? See diagram on page 6F-12 of the factory service manual. If it's missing, the hump on the passenger side floor, and the side of the transmission tunnel are going to be hot.
AFTERMARKET CATS
I would assume that the manufacturer has to have evidence to show that the replacement meets or exceeds the performance of the original factory part, in order to get the CARB certification.
Otherwise, a great analysis.
One note... in the 1994 model year, the M6 LT1's sold in CA (I lived there at the time) were "50-state" certified cars. However the A4 cars were "49-state" and had to have the CA emissions package added. That would lead me to believe that the A4 cars have a PCM program that is unique to CA.
For the 1995 model year, the A4 cars sold in CA got a dual cat setup, while the M6 cars still have the single cat exhaust.
MISCELLANEOUS THOUGHTS
We're lucky here in NJ (sort of). The State is so strapped for money that they have been cutting back on inspections of all kinds. There is no longer any "safety" inspection.... you can go to the emissions stations with 4 bald tires, inoperative wipers, poorly aimed headlights, etc., and there is no check on these items.
About 2 years ago, they stopped all emissions inspections on 1995 and older (OBD-1) light vehicles. I have a card to display if I am stopped, indicating the car no longer requires an inspection sticker. The requirements for functional OEM emissions control systems and components are still in effect, but it is an "honor" system. A LEO can still give you a ticket for no cats, aftermarket mods, etc.
When I built the stroker way back in 2000, we set the engine up to meet NJ emissions. It makes a shade under 500 HP at the flywheel, without the nitrous, with a moderate cam. The nitrous system is legal, as long as you have a permit to posses nitrous oxide, issued by the department of aging and health (or something like that). When you apply for the permit, one of the acceptable reason is "auto racing". You (technically) have to show the permit to have the tank refilled. And NJ State Police used to walk through the pits at Englishtown drag strip, looking for nitrous and asking to see the permits. The permit is required under the "controlled dangerous substances" law, even though the vehicle nitrous has a noxious odor added to deter sniffing it.
So, theoretically I could have taken it to an inspection station, passed the tailpipe test, and they would never have opened the hood. But, they had mobile inspection teams, that would set up on the side of the road, and pull cars over "at random" (like they didn't go after high performance cars with loud exhaust???) and subject them to an actual roadside dyno test and a full visual check by people who had the full resources to know the details of what to look for. It was what altered my thought process to turn it into a "track" car.
To reduce costs, they don't seem to go after passenger cars any more. They focus primarily on heavy diesel trucks.
To clarify - when you measure the outside of the metal exhaust pipe, you are not directly measuring the actual exhaust gas temperature. I tried to explain that. The outside of the pipe is going to be cooler than the exhaust gas inside it.
The exhaust gas has to be hot enough to keep the O2 sensors at 600-degF, or above, for the O2 sensors to work. During extended idle, the exhaust may not be hot enough to maintain this temperature. That's why 1994 and up have heated O2 sensors. The passenger side sensor is in the Y-pipe branch, about 1/2-way to the cat. The exhaust at the cat is going to be cooler than at the sensor. At higher engine loads, out on the road, exhaust gasses can easily reach 1,000-degF. The cat also generates heat when it oxidizes the unburned hydrocarbons and the carbon monoxide.
Does your car still have the catalytic converter heat shield installed? See diagram on page 6F-12 of the factory service manual. If it's missing, the hump on the passenger side floor, and the side of the transmission tunnel are going to be hot.
AFTERMARKET CATS
I would assume that the manufacturer has to have evidence to show that the replacement meets or exceeds the performance of the original factory part, in order to get the CARB certification.
Otherwise, a great analysis.
One note... in the 1994 model year, the M6 LT1's sold in CA (I lived there at the time) were "50-state" certified cars. However the A4 cars were "49-state" and had to have the CA emissions package added. That would lead me to believe that the A4 cars have a PCM program that is unique to CA.
For the 1995 model year, the A4 cars sold in CA got a dual cat setup, while the M6 cars still have the single cat exhaust.
MISCELLANEOUS THOUGHTS
We're lucky here in NJ (sort of). The State is so strapped for money that they have been cutting back on inspections of all kinds. There is no longer any "safety" inspection.... you can go to the emissions stations with 4 bald tires, inoperative wipers, poorly aimed headlights, etc., and there is no check on these items.
About 2 years ago, they stopped all emissions inspections on 1995 and older (OBD-1) light vehicles. I have a card to display if I am stopped, indicating the car no longer requires an inspection sticker. The requirements for functional OEM emissions control systems and components are still in effect, but it is an "honor" system. A LEO can still give you a ticket for no cats, aftermarket mods, etc.
When I built the stroker way back in 2000, we set the engine up to meet NJ emissions. It makes a shade under 500 HP at the flywheel, without the nitrous, with a moderate cam. The nitrous system is legal, as long as you have a permit to posses nitrous oxide, issued by the department of aging and health (or something like that). When you apply for the permit, one of the acceptable reason is "auto racing". You (technically) have to show the permit to have the tank refilled. And NJ State Police used to walk through the pits at Englishtown drag strip, looking for nitrous and asking to see the permits. The permit is required under the "controlled dangerous substances" law, even though the vehicle nitrous has a noxious odor added to deter sniffing it.
So, theoretically I could have taken it to an inspection station, passed the tailpipe test, and they would never have opened the hood. But, they had mobile inspection teams, that would set up on the side of the road, and pull cars over "at random" (like they didn't go after high performance cars with loud exhaust???) and subject them to an actual roadside dyno test and a full visual check by people who had the full resources to know the details of what to look for. It was what altered my thought process to turn it into a "track" car.
To reduce costs, they don't seem to go after passenger cars any more. They focus primarily on heavy diesel trucks.
Last edited by Injuneer; 11-17-2018 at 11:53 AM.
11-17-2018, 12:31 PM
#67
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Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 1,083
Re: New Engine won't pass emissions, High NOX
HOT FLOORBOARDS:
Does your car still have the catalytic converter heat shield installed? See diagram on page 6F-12 of the factory service manual. If it's missing, the hump on the passenger side floor, and the side of the transmission tunnel are going to be hot.
AFTERMARKET CATS
I would assume that the manufacturer has to have evidence to show that the replacement meets or exceeds the performance of the original factory part, in order to get the CARB certification.
.
Does your car still have the catalytic converter heat shield installed? See diagram on page 6F-12 of the factory service manual. If it's missing, the hump on the passenger side floor, and the side of the transmission tunnel are going to be hot.
AFTERMARKET CATS
I would assume that the manufacturer has to have evidence to show that the replacement meets or exceeds the performance of the original factory part, in order to get the CARB certification.
.
IIRC in CA OBD1 cars don't need a "C.A.R.B." CAT (unless that law changed in 1/18)...OBD 2 you absolutely do. MagnaFlo makes them and they are $250 each as a non CARB OBD1CAT (Catco for example) is $70
I go to cruise events. One in particular draws hundreds of cars each Sunday and there is always the burnout or rev the motor dushbag so Police are always present. The organizer has a megaphone telling everyone Cops are here and WILL cite anyone for exhibition of speed or "equipment" violations and tow the car immediately. Several deserving dushbags (ironically late model Mustang owners and ricers with fart can exhausts) have had their cars impounded for illegal & loud exhausts and ticketed accordingly where they have to go to the Ref. Typically they would have to install their factory or CARB approved exhaust to get the ticket signed off
Otherwise the Cops are cool and do themselves walk around just checking out the cars (not for any violations) as spectators.
11-17-2018, 01:16 PM
#68
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Join Date: Jul 2018
Posts: 140
Re: New Engine won't pass emissions, High NOX
In 06 (first year the smog reports showed specific measurements vs just a "pass/fail"). For the 15 & 25 mph on rollers in 06 they were HC 52 & 36. 2018 54 & 37. For CO .49 & .47. 2018 .50 & .47. NOX 425 & 712. In 2018 it is 430 & 717.
But now, gross polluter means you have to test at a star station and not a regular smog place. But most places around here are Star if they're doing OBD1. I called about 5 Smog shops before I found one that even did OBD1. They also rolled out a new machine last week. I'm not sure what the difference is but just thought it was interesting.
If you're getting sniffer test AND monitor ready, that is absolutely terrible! lol I don't have to worry about drive cycles and having to drive my car for 50-100 miles to get all the monitors ready when I unplug the battery. That sucks. And yeah it used to be 2 ANY monitors, now it's just 1. And for ODB2 after 99, it used to be ANY one monitor not ready, but now it's only the EVAP monitor not ready.
Anyway, I'm pretty confident that if I had learned and played around with tuning it would reduce nox even less. Because tuning software can allow the EGR to come on at certain times(?) still not sure about that. I see in TunerPro the max/min RPM but I don't see any way to turn it on continually. I imagine if you turn it on continually it would reduce nox quite a bit. You can also retard timing but I'm not too versed on tuning.
Injuneer, I think the exhaust temps are normal and the heat is somewhat normal. Like I said, I had the same issue in my 350z when I would drive it for a long time. I might get some of that adhesive reflective heat shield stuff that I use on my starter on the bottom of the floorboard and the trans tunnel if it gets too uncomfortable. But so far it's not a big deal.
I'm just still stoked that my AC system has no leaks. Held at 30" HG for over 24 hours.
Last edited by ridiqls; 11-17-2018 at 01:20 PM.
11-17-2018, 03:35 PM
#69
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Re: New Engine won't pass emissions, High NOX
car be categorized as a "high emitter profile" is not the same as "gross polluter". Gross polluter is a car that fails emission testing multiple times
BAR takes overall data from a given model/year vehicle and determines if "x" of those cars have higher emission testing results than those brands/models/years are categorized as "high emitter" requiring them to be tested at "Star" testing smog shops. Its not like the old days when you could find a "friend" for $150 where they used a donor car to plug in. Now BAR actually sends out "spy" cars with faulty issues on the car for emissions or ones they can induce by flipping a switch they install. That put the fear of God in shop owners as they get heavily fined and lose their license to test so many shop owners don't even test some of these cars. The place I go to does me no favors. Everything by the book and only because I have been going to him for 12-15 years and I have 5 other cars he tests mine. He said if a shop tests to many older cars and they pass...it raises a red flag with BAR (Bureau of Automotive Repair) for inspection of the shop. IDK if that is BS or not. I do what I need to do with the tune to stay on the right side of the line. I recently had my tuner do a "smog tune" where he pulled timing back to stock and set my fan on temps back to stock. That will greatly lower HC which is one area I am "close" to the limit. I have not needed that PCM yet but have it in my back pocket should I ever cross the HC line.
BAR takes overall data from a given model/year vehicle and determines if "x" of those cars have higher emission testing results than those brands/models/years are categorized as "high emitter" requiring them to be tested at "Star" testing smog shops. Its not like the old days when you could find a "friend" for $150 where they used a donor car to plug in. Now BAR actually sends out "spy" cars with faulty issues on the car for emissions or ones they can induce by flipping a switch they install. That put the fear of God in shop owners as they get heavily fined and lose their license to test so many shop owners don't even test some of these cars. The place I go to does me no favors. Everything by the book and only because I have been going to him for 12-15 years and I have 5 other cars he tests mine. He said if a shop tests to many older cars and they pass...it raises a red flag with BAR (Bureau of Automotive Repair) for inspection of the shop. IDK if that is BS or not. I do what I need to do with the tune to stay on the right side of the line. I recently had my tuner do a "smog tune" where he pulled timing back to stock and set my fan on temps back to stock. That will greatly lower HC which is one area I am "close" to the limit. I have not needed that PCM yet but have it in my back pocket should I ever cross the HC line.
11-17-2018, 03:51 PM
#70
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Re: New Engine won't pass emissions, High NOX
Interesting that they're different. I looked it up but still kind of confused what the difference is between the 2. High emitter profile is basically cars that are tagged based on of statistics and you have to go to star testing? Gross polluter also requires star testing so curious what the difference is functionally?
Regardless, I failed 2 official, 2 pre-tests and passed on the 5th. As I understand the pre-tests get reported but do not count against gross polluter but I'm not sure. I keep hearing conflicting things.
Regardless, I failed 2 official, 2 pre-tests and passed on the 5th. As I understand the pre-tests get reported but do not count against gross polluter but I'm not sure. I keep hearing conflicting things.
11-21-2018, 03:10 AM
#72
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Re: New Engine won't pass emissions, High NOX
Got the AC recharged and fixed, works great.
Unfortunately, one problem solved, another one arises.
The battery died today. I measured parasitic drain with a multimeter and it's around .15amps, which is about 150 milliamps so about 3x the upper limit.
I parked the car Thursday to fix the stereo and AC and haven't driven it until today so for about 5 days it was draining at that rate. Then, I got a DTC trouble code for 36, for the distributor. The oil leak from the water pump seal is causing havoc so I gotta address this now before I drive it anymore.
As for the opti, I'm going to pull the waterpump and opti and open up the opti and see if there's any oil inside. I RTVed the opti case when I installed a new cap and rotor so it shouldn't but I'll double check. Might just be oil on the electrical connector but I can't see with all the stuff in the way.
So..
any stereo or electrical experts here?
This is how the previous owner wired up the stereo.. The stock car had a bose system. He removed all the speakers except for the Bose rear speaker/amp combo in the trunk on the driver's side. Then he put in all 4 new speakers (2 front/2 sail panels) and new Sony headunit.
The way he wired it up is for the 2 front speakers... he cut the stock harness and wired the signal wires (green/white) to the speaker. The orange/black wires which are the power wires that the stock bose speakers used to have, are left untouched. So that part sounds OK.
But the rear speakers.... given that there is no harness back there he wired directly from the speaker to the headunit. The rear left speaker wires are T-spliced into front left signal wires at the stereo harness. (Same for the right side)
So you basically have the rear speakers piggybacking off the front audio+/- signal wires.
This was very strange because the balance/fader was all messed up and the Bose Rear Trunk Speaker/Sub/Amp combo was way louder than the aftermarket speakers.
So I kind of cleaned it up and T-spliced all 4 speakers into their RESPECTIVE signal wires at the stereo harness. This allows all 4 speakers to get the right signal. By T-splicing it, it also maintains the Rear Bose Trunk speaker/amp unit to continue to get audio signal because according to the wiring diagram, it looks like that rear amp gets it's signal from the stock harness rear audio+/- wires.
Now, if I were to CUT the front left &right, rear left&right wires at the harness and wire them to the speakers... that would completely bypass the Bose Trunk Unit Amp/speaker combo. I didn't do this because that unit sounds pretty good.
Unfortunately, I'm not sure if this hybrid type of audio system is causing a drain problem. The rear bose amp is tied in with the 4 aftermarket speakers and Sony headunit.
I haven't experienced battery drain previously because I wasn't using the stereo. I had the faceplate removed for the time being. Now that I cleaned up the stereo over the weekend and started using it, the battery died on me.
Either something I did to the wiring made the parasitic drain worse, or it was draining before just didn't at this rate because I didnt use the stereo until now. Listening to the stereo with the engine off for about 2 hours was enough to kill the battery. (+5 days of not running)
Is there something about the Bose system in particular or the wiring that may cause additional drainage on the battery? Need to investigate this further
Unfortunately, one problem solved, another one arises.
The battery died today. I measured parasitic drain with a multimeter and it's around .15amps, which is about 150 milliamps so about 3x the upper limit.
I parked the car Thursday to fix the stereo and AC and haven't driven it until today so for about 5 days it was draining at that rate. Then, I got a DTC trouble code for 36, for the distributor. The oil leak from the water pump seal is causing havoc so I gotta address this now before I drive it anymore.
As for the opti, I'm going to pull the waterpump and opti and open up the opti and see if there's any oil inside. I RTVed the opti case when I installed a new cap and rotor so it shouldn't but I'll double check. Might just be oil on the electrical connector but I can't see with all the stuff in the way.
So..
any stereo or electrical experts here?
This is how the previous owner wired up the stereo.. The stock car had a bose system. He removed all the speakers except for the Bose rear speaker/amp combo in the trunk on the driver's side. Then he put in all 4 new speakers (2 front/2 sail panels) and new Sony headunit.
The way he wired it up is for the 2 front speakers... he cut the stock harness and wired the signal wires (green/white) to the speaker. The orange/black wires which are the power wires that the stock bose speakers used to have, are left untouched. So that part sounds OK.
But the rear speakers.... given that there is no harness back there he wired directly from the speaker to the headunit. The rear left speaker wires are T-spliced into front left signal wires at the stereo harness. (Same for the right side)
So you basically have the rear speakers piggybacking off the front audio+/- signal wires.
This was very strange because the balance/fader was all messed up and the Bose Rear Trunk Speaker/Sub/Amp combo was way louder than the aftermarket speakers.
So I kind of cleaned it up and T-spliced all 4 speakers into their RESPECTIVE signal wires at the stereo harness. This allows all 4 speakers to get the right signal. By T-splicing it, it also maintains the Rear Bose Trunk speaker/amp unit to continue to get audio signal because according to the wiring diagram, it looks like that rear amp gets it's signal from the stock harness rear audio+/- wires.
Now, if I were to CUT the front left &right, rear left&right wires at the harness and wire them to the speakers... that would completely bypass the Bose Trunk Unit Amp/speaker combo. I didn't do this because that unit sounds pretty good.
Unfortunately, I'm not sure if this hybrid type of audio system is causing a drain problem. The rear bose amp is tied in with the 4 aftermarket speakers and Sony headunit.
I haven't experienced battery drain previously because I wasn't using the stereo. I had the faceplate removed for the time being. Now that I cleaned up the stereo over the weekend and started using it, the battery died on me.
Either something I did to the wiring made the parasitic drain worse, or it was draining before just didn't at this rate because I didnt use the stereo until now. Listening to the stereo with the engine off for about 2 hours was enough to kill the battery. (+5 days of not running)
Is there something about the Bose system in particular or the wiring that may cause additional drainage on the battery? Need to investigate this further
11-21-2018, 10:15 AM
#73
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Join Date: Nov 1998
Location: Hell was full so they sent me to NJ
Posts: 70,650
Re: New Engine won't pass emissions, High NOX
While measuring the parasitic drain, did you disconnect the loads/fuses one at a time to try and pin down the source of the drain?
Again, time for a new thread, a separate one for the battery/audio? problem. GaryDoug is good with electrical issues. I'll point him to your new thread.
The oil leak/Opti problem should also be a new thread. Seeing 6 pages and 77 posts, not directly related to the new problems might scare off people who would otherwise try to help.
Again, time for a new thread, a separate one for the battery/audio? problem. GaryDoug is good with electrical issues. I'll point him to your new thread.
The oil leak/Opti problem should also be a new thread. Seeing 6 pages and 77 posts, not directly related to the new problems might scare off people who would otherwise try to help.