I Hate Gm Engineers
Thread Starter
Registered User
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 49
From: sd, ca
Well I have to say that I do enjoy my car. Before this one I had an 83Z28 which was almost as bad to work on. And it broke down. Often. But, the fun of driving a camaro still outweighed the downsides. Its just that within the last month I've had to work on my car way too much.
Waterpump X 2
Opti
plugs and wires
coil, ICM
air pump
intake leak
heater core
which brings me to number 19
ICM and coil: Ok, just bolt these heat sensitive components right onto the block. Stick a little cooling fin on there and call it a day. I mean....like those cooling fins are going to dissapate all of the heat from a 5.7L V8! Place them where no air flows, down in a little valley. Great job guys.
20: Seats
I think if I was fat the motor wouldn't move the seat.
21: Vents
How about some vents that work without the fan? Like a small constant trickle of air into the cabin. And why make the "fan" setting past the "AC" setting so you have to trip the AC on en route to turning on the fan.
PS: to the guy who tips well: Have you ever done the plugs and wires on your car? Tell me if you feel the same way about the car after
If you have, then you are one patient man.
Waterpump X 2
Opti
plugs and wires
coil, ICM
air pump
intake leak
heater core
which brings me to number 19
ICM and coil: Ok, just bolt these heat sensitive components right onto the block. Stick a little cooling fin on there and call it a day. I mean....like those cooling fins are going to dissapate all of the heat from a 5.7L V8! Place them where no air flows, down in a little valley. Great job guys.
20: Seats
I think if I was fat the motor wouldn't move the seat.
21: Vents
How about some vents that work without the fan? Like a small constant trickle of air into the cabin. And why make the "fan" setting past the "AC" setting so you have to trip the AC on en route to turning on the fan.
PS: to the guy who tips well: Have you ever done the plugs and wires on your car? Tell me if you feel the same way about the car after
If you have, then you are one patient man.
Registered User
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 464
From: Orlando, FL
My car never leaks (except when I didn't put the window up till it sealed) and I have very few if any squeaks, rattles, and etc.
Now, I have probably had a lions share of the possible problems anyone could have. I replaced a head gasket and then the entire engine (spun bearings) within a few months of each other. I have so many thousand in the car I can't even count it anymore.
But you know what? I don't care. I love my car. I love working on my car. It took me all weekend to do plugs and wires the first time because I took my time and had to go out for parts a hundred thousand times, and the 10 hour process of actually finding some NGK plugs locally. But I don't care, I got it done, I took my time and made sure it was done right, and replaced a few other things while I was at it, and became intimately familiar (I spent hours just examining and identifying and looking) with the the underside of my engine compartment. I took mental notes of where every little clip and bolt was. Later on when I went to replace the coil and ICM, it was a snap. I could go back and do plugs and wires in a few hours now, given I start with the right tools and the right parts. Its all a matter of learning which tools to use in which situation. I didn't even loosen the P/S pump to do plugs and wires. I had to bend the AIR hard line in a few places, but its really not *that* bad. And I did a few "while I was at it" things, like a thermostat, and I replaced a few exhaust gaskets, and I ground down the flange on my Y pipe for a better seal.
I thoroughly enjoyed every minute of it. Don't buy these cars for reliability. I plain like working on my car, so who cares. And I thank my lucky stars for that exhaust hump, or ground clearance would be awful on the exhaust. With my new motor, I have had very minimal problems, like a burnt wire (hence the plug/wire change) and a failed Opti, which was replaced for *free* under warranty, along with me providing a new water pump for cheap insurance. The problem is, people drive these cars like your typical soccer mom, and don't take care of them. Most people don't even change their own oil. Get to know your car, its worth it. Don't let stuff go on forever, do the preventative maintenence.... and then go rip on some Mustangs and be thankful that the General gave us the F-Body, even as is.
Now, I have probably had a lions share of the possible problems anyone could have. I replaced a head gasket and then the entire engine (spun bearings) within a few months of each other. I have so many thousand in the car I can't even count it anymore.
But you know what? I don't care. I love my car. I love working on my car. It took me all weekend to do plugs and wires the first time because I took my time and had to go out for parts a hundred thousand times, and the 10 hour process of actually finding some NGK plugs locally. But I don't care, I got it done, I took my time and made sure it was done right, and replaced a few other things while I was at it, and became intimately familiar (I spent hours just examining and identifying and looking) with the the underside of my engine compartment. I took mental notes of where every little clip and bolt was. Later on when I went to replace the coil and ICM, it was a snap. I could go back and do plugs and wires in a few hours now, given I start with the right tools and the right parts. Its all a matter of learning which tools to use in which situation. I didn't even loosen the P/S pump to do plugs and wires. I had to bend the AIR hard line in a few places, but its really not *that* bad. And I did a few "while I was at it" things, like a thermostat, and I replaced a few exhaust gaskets, and I ground down the flange on my Y pipe for a better seal.
I thoroughly enjoyed every minute of it. Don't buy these cars for reliability. I plain like working on my car, so who cares. And I thank my lucky stars for that exhaust hump, or ground clearance would be awful on the exhaust. With my new motor, I have had very minimal problems, like a burnt wire (hence the plug/wire change) and a failed Opti, which was replaced for *free* under warranty, along with me providing a new water pump for cheap insurance. The problem is, people drive these cars like your typical soccer mom, and don't take care of them. Most people don't even change their own oil. Get to know your car, its worth it. Don't let stuff go on forever, do the preventative maintenence.... and then go rip on some Mustangs and be thankful that the General gave us the F-Body, even as is.
Registered User
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 3,223
From: Browns Mills, New Jersey
Yea Gm Engineers suck...they designed the LT1 w/ was basically untouchable, until Gm Engineers came out w/ the ls1 w/ was untouchable til ford finally figured that they need Forced Induction to make up for there lack of cubes 
, two engines way before there time....All companies have those problems...mainly ford and dodge
, two engines way before there time....All companies have those problems...mainly ford and dodge
Registered User
Joined: Jun 1999
Posts: 939
From: Lowcountry
Re: I Hate Gm Engineers
EVERY car has its own quirks and problems. The f-bodies do have some inexpensive parts on them, which is the reason I can afford to have a performance car. It was designed to go fast with reasonable accomodations for a lot less money than most other performance cars.... I think the engineers did a good job.
<cracks knuckles>
1.) Bearings do wear and it's not common only to f-bodies. In fact the bearings used in the opti are actually very high quality and kept to strict tolerances. Thanks to the bean counters and assemblers of the optisparks though the retainers used and the sloppiness of the opti housing means that the bearings are not used effectively, in fact very poorly..... the engineers had something different I'm sure before the cost cutters and manufacturers got to work. I personally would have much preferred a signal only opti and a coil per cylinder setup though
2.) It's tight but I've never had that much trouble. If the factory plugs didn't lose their fricken platinum pucks after 2,000 miles you would only need to change things around ever 100k miles or so. As cars become better equipped, lighter, faster, etc. packaging is going to become tighter. Wasted space is a bad thing. I'd rather have a sleek car with the right hardware packed into it, even if it means spending an extra couple hours when the parts need changing, which these days is a long time, provided the car is stock. When designing an engine I hope durability, effeciency, power, torque curve, etc. is much higher on the list than plug access, although it's as much a chassis specification than an engine one. I'm sure this was one of the sacrifices the engineers made in order to improve other things, I'm not too pissed about it.
3.) You're right, the windows should be much faster. Not only that but the earlier models shouldn't have had such a cheap POS guide system. Was this an engineers fault or an accountant's fault?
4.) The intake manifold leak is purely an assembly problem. The sealant used was crap. Let's say the factory had used a thick bead of brand name RTV like we use and I'd bet it would be a fairly rare problem. A proper sealant is designed to handle the expansion contraction because of heat and bi-metal design. The quick run of tubing for the EGR is cheap, light, and effective, and if the manifold is sealed properly shouldn't pose a problem. I probably wouldn't spend much time overengineering this either.
5.) Any front engine/RWD chassis is going to have a transmission hump. You can't have a drivetrain there without it
If you're referring to the catalytic converter hump, I don't really like it either. I've never heard so many complaints about it until I got on the 'net so I suppose they should have done something about that.
6.) Some fuel pumps whine louder than others. I've been in all sorts of cars and the f-body has never stuck out as being abnormally loud compared to the rest of 'em? I'd be willing to bet that most fuel pumps used in any car come from only a few manufacturers in the world. Almost all in tank fuel pumps use fuel to cool them, whether that be a Camaro, Tahoe, Mustang, Civic. Some get luckier than others and running the tank dry is a bad idea for more than just that reason! Not an f-body engineering problem but a general dumbass driver problem.
7.) T-tops have been ever-improving and for the most part were perfected on the last of the f-bodies, IMO. Due to many factors some will leak, just the same as some windows will leak, even on a Lexus. Your chances of having a leak with T-tops is certainly greater for obvious reasons. I really don't hear about this problem much anymore and 4th gen ttop experience has been favorable on my side of the fence. This is one reason many car designers shy away from ttops but it's been part of the f-body experience for a long time and people seam willing to put up with a few things in order to experience something that you can't find elsewhere. Such is the f-body
8.) I don't believe the engineers were responsible for the gas gauge, more like accountants and those higher up in GM. In fact I actually read something from GM that stated they did it because "customers like to see their fuel gauge at full". This is not something any engineer would subscribe to, believe me.
9.) You're tranny has something wrong with it. If anything GM does a great job with transmissions IMO. I would say GM powertrain is one of the best things GM has going for it. BMW also seems pretty impressed with GM transmissions They should have put a drain plug in the autos though.
10.) No experience, no comment.
11.) Almost all engines need to be bleed after servicing the cooling system, this is in no way shape or form an LT1 thing but an internal combustion engine thing. The LT1 is more sensitive to this than many engines because it is reverse cooled. From an engineering standpoint reverse cooling is superior IMO.
12.) Blame the feds for cags not the engineers. I can't believe you're bagging on the engine again, one of the best things about the f-body. It's pretty difficult to make the engine more effecient, ~30 mpg (properly driven M6) for a car this heavy with performance tires and lots of power is impressive to me
13.) yep, no excuses for the 10-bolt. I can't believe engineers would let this car be built with that POS. I'm sure the powers that be said to keep it as it's cheap and will live provided the car is driven like most on the road and the drivetrain remains stock..... which for the most part is what happens.
I'm just razzin you, I know you're just venting but I couldn't resist I've been very happy with my car considering how much money it's cost me, and there was nothing else like it 
<cracks knuckles>
1.) Bearings do wear and it's not common only to f-bodies. In fact the bearings used in the opti are actually very high quality and kept to strict tolerances. Thanks to the bean counters and assemblers of the optisparks though the retainers used and the sloppiness of the opti housing means that the bearings are not used effectively, in fact very poorly..... the engineers had something different I'm sure before the cost cutters and manufacturers got to work. I personally would have much preferred a signal only opti and a coil per cylinder setup though
2.) It's tight but I've never had that much trouble. If the factory plugs didn't lose their fricken platinum pucks after 2,000 miles you would only need to change things around ever 100k miles or so. As cars become better equipped, lighter, faster, etc. packaging is going to become tighter. Wasted space is a bad thing. I'd rather have a sleek car with the right hardware packed into it, even if it means spending an extra couple hours when the parts need changing, which these days is a long time, provided the car is stock. When designing an engine I hope durability, effeciency, power, torque curve, etc. is much higher on the list than plug access, although it's as much a chassis specification than an engine one. I'm sure this was one of the sacrifices the engineers made in order to improve other things, I'm not too pissed about it.
3.) You're right, the windows should be much faster. Not only that but the earlier models shouldn't have had such a cheap POS guide system. Was this an engineers fault or an accountant's fault?
4.) The intake manifold leak is purely an assembly problem. The sealant used was crap. Let's say the factory had used a thick bead of brand name RTV like we use and I'd bet it would be a fairly rare problem. A proper sealant is designed to handle the expansion contraction because of heat and bi-metal design. The quick run of tubing for the EGR is cheap, light, and effective, and if the manifold is sealed properly shouldn't pose a problem. I probably wouldn't spend much time overengineering this either.
5.) Any front engine/RWD chassis is going to have a transmission hump. You can't have a drivetrain there without it
If you're referring to the catalytic converter hump, I don't really like it either. I've never heard so many complaints about it until I got on the 'net so I suppose they should have done something about that.6.) Some fuel pumps whine louder than others. I've been in all sorts of cars and the f-body has never stuck out as being abnormally loud compared to the rest of 'em? I'd be willing to bet that most fuel pumps used in any car come from only a few manufacturers in the world. Almost all in tank fuel pumps use fuel to cool them, whether that be a Camaro, Tahoe, Mustang, Civic. Some get luckier than others and running the tank dry is a bad idea for more than just that reason! Not an f-body engineering problem but a general dumbass driver problem.
7.) T-tops have been ever-improving and for the most part were perfected on the last of the f-bodies, IMO. Due to many factors some will leak, just the same as some windows will leak, even on a Lexus. Your chances of having a leak with T-tops is certainly greater for obvious reasons. I really don't hear about this problem much anymore and 4th gen ttop experience has been favorable on my side of the fence. This is one reason many car designers shy away from ttops but it's been part of the f-body experience for a long time and people seam willing to put up with a few things in order to experience something that you can't find elsewhere. Such is the f-body
8.) I don't believe the engineers were responsible for the gas gauge, more like accountants and those higher up in GM. In fact I actually read something from GM that stated they did it because "customers like to see their fuel gauge at full". This is not something any engineer would subscribe to, believe me.
9.) You're tranny has something wrong with it. If anything GM does a great job with transmissions IMO. I would say GM powertrain is one of the best things GM has going for it. BMW also seems pretty impressed with GM transmissions
They should have put a drain plug in the autos though.10.) No experience, no comment.
11.) Almost all engines need to be bleed after servicing the cooling system, this is in no way shape or form an LT1 thing but an internal combustion engine thing. The LT1 is more sensitive to this than many engines because it is reverse cooled. From an engineering standpoint reverse cooling is superior IMO.
12.) Blame the feds for cags not the engineers. I can't believe you're bagging on the engine again, one of the best things about the f-body. It's pretty difficult to make the engine more effecient, ~30 mpg (properly driven M6) for a car this heavy with performance tires and lots of power is impressive to me
13.) yep, no excuses for the 10-bolt. I can't believe engineers would let this car be built with that POS. I'm sure the powers that be said to keep it as it's cheap and will live provided the car is driven like most on the road and the drivetrain remains stock..... which for the most part is what happens.
I'm just razzin you, I know you're just venting but I couldn't resist I've been very happy with my car considering how much money it's cost me, and there was nothing else like it
Last edited by Buttercup; Jul 10, 2003 at 04:49 PM.
Registered User
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 98
sounds like the plugs/wires fixed your problem.. im having your exact problem right now and im glad to hear that you got yours fixed.. ive just lived with mine because at first I just thought it was the engine and it needed rebuilt.. I even talked to my car while im in it and pet the steering wheel and it doesn't work.. time to bring it to the mechanics to get the plugs/wires changed cause I dunno how and no one will teach me =O
Thread Starter
Registered User
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 49
From: sd, ca
Buttercup:
I agree that many of the things I listed were probably the fault of bean counters and not the engineers. I'm sure they made these cars in the cheapest, fastest way possible. Compared to other GM cars, I'm sure the camaro is not that bad. But compared to a Honda or Toyota, the quality control is years behind.
The intake manifold leak is a design problem. The surfaces are uneven, different material, and subject to hot/cold cycles. Knowing Al and Fe expand and contract at different rates, they should have used a real gasket in the back there. Plus they should have made the entire surface level.
As for the "hump" I was talking about the catalytic converter hump. I don't drive around midgets with lopsided legs. (Usually)
It could have easily been avoided. Route the exhaust somewhere else, or give us trual duals with pup cats.
Fuel pump: Only low quality domestic cars have the fuel pump whine of death.
Especially the Suburbans and trucks. Back when I worked a drive thru, I could hear the whine before the car even drove up. I'm sure some foreign cars whine too, but not nearly as many.
Ttops: How many years does it take to get them right? I mean they have been a part of the camaro for decades. And they just FINALLY got them right? Wow, its time for them to retire. Too bad it didn't happen in 94.
Gas gauge: yes I like to see it at full, but it distrubs me when I goes to "extra full" (you know what I'm talking about) The only gauge I want to see pinned is the speedo.
My tranny is "normal" according to most people. Do a poll. Everyone's does it. (M6)
Most cooling systems do NOT need to be bled. They self purge. I've never seen bleeder screws on any other motor. I know i'm not the walking bible of engines, but I have seen quite a few cars, and none of them had bleeder screws.
[complaint]
23: Stupid coolant overflow dipstick
Why do we have to have a plastic excuse for a dipstick in our overflow. Just make the dang thing clear and visible so we can check it easily. That stupid plastic thing gets wet too easily, and then you can't really tell how much is in there. [/complaint]
30 mpg: You gotta be kidding me!! Seriously. Maybe downhill with a tailwind. And being towed. 30mpg...hahah thats comedy right there. 24mpg freeway....ok i believe that
20 is about the max for around town. If you are getting 30mpg then you are not filling your tank back up all the way, or someone slipped you a 6 banger.
All in fun. BTW I'm feeling a lot less irritated now. Venting is good
I agree that many of the things I listed were probably the fault of bean counters and not the engineers. I'm sure they made these cars in the cheapest, fastest way possible. Compared to other GM cars, I'm sure the camaro is not that bad. But compared to a Honda or Toyota, the quality control is years behind.
The intake manifold leak is a design problem. The surfaces are uneven, different material, and subject to hot/cold cycles. Knowing Al and Fe expand and contract at different rates, they should have used a real gasket in the back there. Plus they should have made the entire surface level.
As for the "hump" I was talking about the catalytic converter hump. I don't drive around midgets with lopsided legs. (Usually)
It could have easily been avoided. Route the exhaust somewhere else, or give us trual duals with pup cats.
Fuel pump: Only low quality domestic cars have the fuel pump whine of death.
Especially the Suburbans and trucks. Back when I worked a drive thru, I could hear the whine before the car even drove up. I'm sure some foreign cars whine too, but not nearly as many.Ttops: How many years does it take to get them right? I mean they have been a part of the camaro for decades. And they just FINALLY got them right? Wow, its time for them to retire. Too bad it didn't happen in 94.
Gas gauge: yes I like to see it at full, but it distrubs me when I goes to "extra full" (you know what I'm talking about) The only gauge I want to see pinned is the speedo.
My tranny is "normal" according to most people. Do a poll. Everyone's does it. (M6)
Most cooling systems do NOT need to be bled. They self purge. I've never seen bleeder screws on any other motor. I know i'm not the walking bible of engines, but I have seen quite a few cars, and none of them had bleeder screws.
[complaint]
23: Stupid coolant overflow dipstick
Why do we have to have a plastic excuse for a dipstick in our overflow. Just make the dang thing clear and visible so we can check it easily. That stupid plastic thing gets wet too easily, and then you can't really tell how much is in there. [/complaint]
30 mpg: You gotta be kidding me!! Seriously. Maybe downhill with a tailwind. And being towed. 30mpg...hahah thats comedy right there. 24mpg freeway....ok i believe that
20 is about the max for around town. If you are getting 30mpg then you are not filling your tank back up all the way, or someone slipped you a 6 banger.
All in fun. BTW I'm feeling a lot less irritated now. Venting is good
Last edited by surfinmud; Jul 10, 2003 at 06:48 PM.
Registered User
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 736
From: Hagerstown, MD
Your car is almost 10 years old, probably has 130,000 miles and it probaly has had the crap bet out of it, I don't what car youbuy, of it's got over 100,000 miles on it and hasn't been maintained it's going to give you problems, you have to consider these things before you buy a car, you probaly could have got a car 2 or 3 years newer and half as many miles and difference wouldnt be any different that what you have spent now.
Registered User
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 574
From: Stillwater Ok USA
I always thought it was very easy to bleed the air out of the cooling system. Why in particular do you find those bleed screws so irritating? Just curious.
While I am at it. I am just wondering why the fuel guage also bothers you so badly. It costs no more to run it on full than on empty. When it gets down to half tank, fill it up.
Again with the comparison to a Toyota or Honda. If you drove one of those cars like you drive your Camaro. It would break all the time too.
You mentioned earlier in this post that I am very lucky for not having more problems than I do. Well it is because I take care of my car!!
If you want something that is hardly ever going to break on you and is cheap to fix. Go buy a bicycle and peddle it around for a while.
While I am at it. I am just wondering why the fuel guage also bothers you so badly. It costs no more to run it on full than on empty. When it gets down to half tank, fill it up.
Again with the comparison to a Toyota or Honda. If you drove one of those cars like you drive your Camaro. It would break all the time too.
You mentioned earlier in this post that I am very lucky for not having more problems than I do. Well it is because I take care of my car!!
If you want something that is hardly ever going to break on you and is cheap to fix. Go buy a bicycle and peddle it around for a while.
Registered User
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 302
From: Plumas Lakes CA
At least you have your car, I wrecked mine last week and this was after spending 4 months doing a rebuild with 500 miles on it. I had my car less than a year and spent $5,000 on mods and the rebuild. I had fun working on it and I never regreted buying it the whole time, just wish I still had it. Guess I'll see what the insurance will give me for it. My wife didn't even ask how I was doing after the accident she just asked about the car, she loved the car as much as I did if not more. These cars are great! Be happy your still driving it.
Registered User
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 217
From: McHenry, Il
Actually, I get irritated over some of these little things too. Makes me feel better that others feel the same way.
1. Be glad you can even get to the plugs. Some transverse engines up against firewall, you can't even get to them (see my sig : Monte Carlo).
2. Thermostat is easy to change.
3. Half the stuff wouldn't nearly be as bad to replace/change if it wasn't so damn crowed in there. Having to take 10 things off to change one thing is frustrating.
After that said and like most having a job that requires almost perfection or get yelled at, seeing something designed stupid that could easily be redesigned to make all the difference, and then have to deal with it while fixing your car is maddening.
1. Be glad you can even get to the plugs. Some transverse engines up against firewall, you can't even get to them (see my sig : Monte Carlo).
2. Thermostat is easy to change.
3. Half the stuff wouldn't nearly be as bad to replace/change if it wasn't so damn crowed in there. Having to take 10 things off to change one thing is frustrating.
After that said and like most having a job that requires almost perfection or get yelled at, seeing something designed stupid that could easily be redesigned to make all the difference, and then have to deal with it while fixing your car is maddening.
Registered User
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,428
From: Woodstock,Georgia
Originally posted by surfinmud
Have you ever done the plugs and wires on your car? Tell me if you feel the same way about the car after If you have, then you are one patient man.
Have you ever done the plugs and wires on your car? Tell me if you feel the same way about the car after
If you have, then you are one patient man.
It all seems easy now after pulling the motor out and reinstallining it. Ive learned the best ways to approach every aspect of working on my car. The 2 most important things to have when working on these cars is patients and the right tools. If you get fustrated stop and have a beer, think about it and then go back at it. One more thing...the real GM shop manuals are worth thier wieght in gold....if you aint got um get um.
The only real complaint I have is the damn design of the seats....impossible to get in and out of without scuffing up the bolsters....my leather looks great except for these scuffs.
Registered User
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 574
From: Stillwater Ok USA
Originally posted by 94_Z28_guy
3. Half the stuff wouldn't nearly be as bad to replace/change if it wasn't so damn crowed in there. Having to take 10 things off to change one thing is frustrating.
3. Half the stuff wouldn't nearly be as bad to replace/change if it wasn't so damn crowed in there. Having to take 10 things off to change one thing is frustrating.