Heads
01-02-2012, 03:56 PM
#46
Registered User
Join Date: Dec 1998
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 344
Re: Heads
I would go LE2 anyday. My LE2 heads are so good that I probably could have thrown a much more aggressive cam in there.
01-03-2012, 12:07 AM
#47
Registered User
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Mt Sterling KY USA
Posts: 315
Re: Heads
I had LE2 heads on a 358 with a GM 847. I now have have AI 200cc heads and AI cam. NO COMPAIRISON!!!! AI has LE's beat hands down. For not much more $. I want to see you run 9's on the bottle with your LE heads. And you weigh a lot less than I do.!!!!! Hell with the same motor before i put in the TH400 i ran low 10's on a 60E
Last edited by hvyss; 01-03-2012 at 12:11 AM.
01-03-2012, 03:40 AM
#48
Registered User
Join Date: Dec 1998
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 344
Re: Heads
I had LE2 heads on a 358 with a GM 847. I now have have AI 200cc heads and AI cam. NO COMPAIRISON!!!! AI has LE's beat hands down. For not much more $. I want to see you run 9's on the bottle with your LE heads. And you weigh a lot less than I do.!!!!! Hell with the same motor before i put in the TH400 i ran low 10's on a 60E
And if you read the TS's post I didn't see anywhere that he was ripping his engine out for a totall rebuild so that's where my heads might be a good choice if he so chooses.
Last edited by Rob94hawk; 01-03-2012 at 03:45 AM.
01-03-2012, 05:06 AM
#49
Administrator
Join Date: Nov 1998
Location: Hell was full so they sent me to NJ
Posts: 70,677
Re: Heads
If this turns into another AI vs. LE contest, the thread is getting closed.
This is getting so far from the OP's question that it's not serving any purpose.
This is getting so far from the OP's question that it's not serving any purpose.
01-03-2012, 10:14 AM
#50
Registered User
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Mt Sterling KY USA
Posts: 315
01-03-2012, 03:29 PM
#51
Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Las Vegas
Posts: 38
Re: Heads
Did you even read the original post?
He thought he could save money by buying a $650 pair (or so he thought) of Edelbrock heads. All I did was suggest that 1) he wasn't getting a pair of heads for $650, and 2) there was a more cost effective way to make more power.
I mentioned the LE2's as an EXAMPLE because the math worked. You get upwards of 370rwHP, 80-90 more than the Edelbrocks. He didn't say he wanted a laid back street car, he didn't say he wanted to have a wild track car..... he asked about saving money with the Edelbrocks. If he wants mild, he can do the LE1 setup, and spend less money. Or with any other reputable shop. No one suggested he go to the first guy who wanted to take his credit card.
But to come on here alluding to your apparent belief that we are all ignorant because:
Then you use a 195cc LT4 head as an example of making big power for the street to prove your theory about 170cc runners (totally lost me on that one).
No one talked about FLOW numbers except you. You turned what was a really simple Q&A about price into a debate about head porting theory. Screw the theory.... how do they work? Or do they work at all?
Now, are you suggesting that sending your heads to LE or AI is like dealing with some fly-by-night head porter in the "LA basin"?
Lot's of obfuscation, little substance.
He thought he could save money by buying a $650 pair (or so he thought) of Edelbrock heads. All I did was suggest that 1) he wasn't getting a pair of heads for $650, and 2) there was a more cost effective way to make more power.
I mentioned the LE2's as an EXAMPLE because the math worked. You get upwards of 370rwHP, 80-90 more than the Edelbrocks. He didn't say he wanted a laid back street car, he didn't say he wanted to have a wild track car..... he asked about saving money with the Edelbrocks. If he wants mild, he can do the LE1 setup, and spend less money. Or with any other reputable shop. No one suggested he go to the first guy who wanted to take his credit card.
But to come on here alluding to your apparent belief that we are all ignorant because:
Then you use a 195cc LT4 head as an example of making big power for the street to prove your theory about 170cc runners (totally lost me on that one).
No one talked about FLOW numbers except you. You turned what was a really simple Q&A about price into a debate about head porting theory. Screw the theory.... how do they work? Or do they work at all?
Now, are you suggesting that sending your heads to LE or AI is like dealing with some fly-by-night head porter in the "LA basin"?
Lot's of obfuscation, little substance.
Obfuscation is right, u have done your best to distort everything i provided to help the OP.It was u that stated "any quality head porter would be ashamed to sell you a package at that price". We that fact is there ain't no consumer reports service documenting who the quality head porter's are and who ain't. The novice is easy prey and the Edlebrock Performers are a reasonable enough improvement over stock - even your own link exclaims the low end throttle response and torque improvements by the Edlebrocks. I only used the LT4 heads as a identifible comparision. Did u compare the Edleborck Performer head flow numbers to the LT4's??? Some how u boast 80-90hp gains with your LE1's - where's the proof? LE's w/s??
Apparently u haven't understood anything i have posted regarding velocity, swirl and higher torque under the greater part of the power curve. U reject it at your own loss - not mine. I just hope the OP has an open enough mined to sort this out for himself.
Whoa hold on a minute there friend. We haven't dropped the LS head comparison ...... we've just given up on you understanding it!
Since you mentioned the ""physics" of head flow .... I'll try this one (1) more time for you. By your earlier statement regarding the "straight shot" that those 15 degree LS style heads have at the intake valve, you should then realize that the length of the intake runner on an LS style head is SHORTER that on an LT1 head. Now since intake runner volume is just average cross sectional area times length ..... those STOCK LS1 heads with 200cc runners and those STOCK LS3 heads with 260cc runners, and SHORTER runner lengths ........ must have MUCH greater average cross sectional areas than any LT1 style head could possibly have! By your thinking then the airstream velocity in these heads must be MUCH, MUCH LOWER than in any LT1 head, right. And hence, by your thinking perform very badly at low RPM, when .......... (as LE mentioned above) they perform beautifully at low RPM.
Again, it's NOT high airstream velocity in the intake port that's required for good head flow, but rather CONSTANT velocity in the intake port ....... when that intake valve is opening and closing 25 times per second at 3,000 RPM and 50 times a second at 6,000 RPM!!!
Since you mentioned the ""physics" of head flow .... I'll try this one (1) more time for you. By your earlier statement regarding the "straight shot" that those 15 degree LS style heads have at the intake valve, you should then realize that the length of the intake runner on an LS style head is SHORTER that on an LT1 head. Now since intake runner volume is just average cross sectional area times length ..... those STOCK LS1 heads with 200cc runners and those STOCK LS3 heads with 260cc runners, and SHORTER runner lengths ........ must have MUCH greater average cross sectional areas than any LT1 style head could possibly have! By your thinking then the airstream velocity in these heads must be MUCH, MUCH LOWER than in any LT1 head, right. And hence, by your thinking perform very badly at low RPM, when .......... (as LE mentioned above) they perform beautifully at low RPM.
Again, it's NOT high airstream velocity in the intake port that's required for good head flow, but rather CONSTANT velocity in the intake port ....... when that intake valve is opening and closing 25 times per second at 3,000 RPM and 50 times a second at 6,000 RPM!!!
QUOTE=cardo0;6849375]OK, things are a little more civil now.
************************************************** ********************
I did not realize things were uncivil . . . . . ? ? ? ?
Lloyd
************************************************** ********************
Mr. LE thx for your elaboration here. There are not many head porters that have Vortec style head expertiece. And i look at the LT1 head as directly related to the Vorec head but most the local machine shops that advertize head porting want to treat the LT1/Vortec head as a regular GEN I head
.
************************************************
The CAST IRON LT1 head is alot like the 906 Vortecs with a tall short side radius, etc but the alu LT1 is more like the 8113 TPI castings and closer to the std small block chevy (dbl umps, BowTies, etc) with the short short-side radius, etc.
Lloyd
*************************************************
From what i have read pocket porting a Lt1/Vortec head gains almost nothing. The porter has to know exactly where to take metal out or performance goes down. But most machine shops want your business first and then do what ever they want. Or worst case just rebox someone else's work and charge u.
************************************************
the average machine shop with boring bar, engine dyno, crank balancer, etc, etc has so much over head that they muct charge $200-300 per hour for there work (regardless of how long you think the work took or is on your bill). Nothing wrong with that. they have LOTS of $$$ invested, lots of overhead and deserve to at least break even at the end of the month and maybe a lil profit . . . . this is just what it costs. In order to "port" a set of heads for you they are gonna spend 3-4 hrs of porting before you have a $600-1200 bill for "portwork". Before valves/springs . . . before VJ, mill, clean and assembly.
Some of these shops actually know what to do but can't do a top notch job in the time allowed (to charge you an amount you will pay) so they end up doing gaskets match, bowl job, narrow guides a lil, polish everything and call it good. Some of these shops do not have the knowledge to make the heads right even if they wanted and so therefore this is all they do anyway. This is a generalization but it is true in a lot of instances. There are some "engine shops" that do good portwork also but you are gonna pay . . . . . . that is just part of all of there overhead.
I do lots of work for machine shops and they just mark it up $100-200 (or more in some) cases. They do not get to make the entire $400-600 for the port job but they are not out the 10-12 hrs of shop labor either. they can come out much better by boring blocks, balancing cranks, milling heads, doing valve jobs, assembling engines for 10-12 hrs than the paltry $400-600 they would make on the 2-4 hr portjob they would do so they get the heads to me, pick them up and make an instant $100-200 profit and still get to run there machine shop.
Lloyd
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Regardless i see nothing wrong with what Edlebrock has done. They have take the LT1 and made a "bolt on" improvement with quality and warrenty.
**********************************************
If you are after a 15 HP over stock and have bags of $$$ laying around, sure why not. . . . . . most would want more $$$ for the same $$$ and so would I. Heck, just do a nice have job (5 angle intake, radius ex.) on some LT1 heads and mill them .020" then install a som Howards 98215 springs and you can match the HP gains the ede heads privide.
IF Edelbrock used a 2.02/1.60 valve in the heads, 52 cc chamber and about 180cc's in the port you could maybe justify 25 HP gains for the $$$ spent . . . . . but they didn't. . . . they used 1.94/1.55 valves, worse chamber design than stock Lt1 heads and no gain in runner volume. They could have done all of this for the same $$$ and could probably sell a cpl of heads or at least not be embarassed by the reviews of people that have installed them when comparing to what they could have done in hind sight.
the Edelbrock heads are great for a street rodder and there typical parts selection. A guy and his 37 Chevy, T bucket, etc that has NO craving for power at all. . . . . . just something with a nice rumble and is slightly above stock but he can put the long list of parts on used a poster board and set beside the car. . . . . . Ede performer heads, Performer intake, Carter AFB carb, comp 268 flat tappet cam, 1 1/2" block hugger headers, etc, etc. . . . . They are happy with the results and that is all that matters but an educated person (or anyone after an actual ibcrease in power) could spend the same $$$ or a few $$$ more and make more power at every RPM just from better parts selection.
Lloyd
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Try returning a set of ported heads to a local machine shop?? I don't think Edlebrock deserves the bad mouthing they get as their heads proved a performance improvement by them selves at a price less than new LT4 heads and possibly make even more power.
************************************************** **
LT4 heads will win that battle EVERY TIME and they are not really anything spectacular.
Lloyd
************************************************** ***
I am not a head porter myself am not trying to patronize someone who is. But i have been literaly rippe off enough over the years to make the effort to research before a major purchase or modification. And while Smokey Y. (may he rest in peace) focused on the "bell or cone" shape of airflow over the valve he was mainly focused on a high rpm/speed endurance engine for oval track racing. If u study D. Vizard he focuses more on low lift flow and crating "swirl" for improved torque through out the curve - reasoning the greater area under the power curve is more important than peak power. And D. Vizard had more of a circuit track/drag race background.
*********************************************
Vizard had some intersting theories but most are to the way side now. If anyone is serious about learning about what makes the head work, you just have to dive in and learn. read all you can, buy CD's from the people that KNOW, talk with porters that are superiors, LISTEN TO THEM, soak up all you can and try it all.
Most do not wanna put in this time and effort and most would rather just repeat a few phrases they read on the internet so others think "wow, this guy knows his stuff".
Lloyd
********************************************
************************************************** ********************
I did not realize things were uncivil . . . . . ? ? ? ?
Lloyd
************************************************** ********************
Mr. LE thx for your elaboration here. There are not many head porters that have Vortec style head expertiece. And i look at the LT1 head as directly related to the Vorec head but most the local machine shops that advertize head porting want to treat the LT1/Vortec head as a regular GEN I head
. ************************************************
The CAST IRON LT1 head is alot like the 906 Vortecs with a tall short side radius, etc but the alu LT1 is more like the 8113 TPI castings and closer to the std small block chevy (dbl umps, BowTies, etc) with the short short-side radius, etc.
Lloyd
*************************************************
From what i have read pocket porting a Lt1/Vortec head gains almost nothing. The porter has to know exactly where to take metal out or performance goes down. But most machine shops want your business first and then do what ever they want. Or worst case just rebox someone else's work and charge u.
************************************************
the average machine shop with boring bar, engine dyno, crank balancer, etc, etc has so much over head that they muct charge $200-300 per hour for there work (regardless of how long you think the work took or is on your bill). Nothing wrong with that. they have LOTS of $$$ invested, lots of overhead and deserve to at least break even at the end of the month and maybe a lil profit . . . . this is just what it costs. In order to "port" a set of heads for you they are gonna spend 3-4 hrs of porting before you have a $600-1200 bill for "portwork". Before valves/springs . . . before VJ, mill, clean and assembly.
Some of these shops actually know what to do but can't do a top notch job in the time allowed (to charge you an amount you will pay) so they end up doing gaskets match, bowl job, narrow guides a lil, polish everything and call it good. Some of these shops do not have the knowledge to make the heads right even if they wanted and so therefore this is all they do anyway. This is a generalization but it is true in a lot of instances. There are some "engine shops" that do good portwork also but you are gonna pay . . . . . . that is just part of all of there overhead.
I do lots of work for machine shops and they just mark it up $100-200 (or more in some) cases. They do not get to make the entire $400-600 for the port job but they are not out the 10-12 hrs of shop labor either. they can come out much better by boring blocks, balancing cranks, milling heads, doing valve jobs, assembling engines for 10-12 hrs than the paltry $400-600 they would make on the 2-4 hr portjob they would do so they get the heads to me, pick them up and make an instant $100-200 profit and still get to run there machine shop.
Lloyd
**************************************************
Regardless i see nothing wrong with what Edlebrock has done. They have take the LT1 and made a "bolt on" improvement with quality and warrenty.
**********************************************
If you are after a 15 HP over stock and have bags of $$$ laying around, sure why not. . . . . . most would want more $$$ for the same $$$ and so would I. Heck, just do a nice have job (5 angle intake, radius ex.) on some LT1 heads and mill them .020" then install a som Howards 98215 springs and you can match the HP gains the ede heads privide.
IF Edelbrock used a 2.02/1.60 valve in the heads, 52 cc chamber and about 180cc's in the port you could maybe justify 25 HP gains for the $$$ spent . . . . . but they didn't. . . . they used 1.94/1.55 valves, worse chamber design than stock Lt1 heads and no gain in runner volume. They could have done all of this for the same $$$ and could probably sell a cpl of heads or at least not be embarassed by the reviews of people that have installed them when comparing to what they could have done in hind sight.
the Edelbrock heads are great for a street rodder and there typical parts selection. A guy and his 37 Chevy, T bucket, etc that has NO craving for power at all. . . . . . just something with a nice rumble and is slightly above stock but he can put the long list of parts on used a poster board and set beside the car. . . . . . Ede performer heads, Performer intake, Carter AFB carb, comp 268 flat tappet cam, 1 1/2" block hugger headers, etc, etc. . . . . They are happy with the results and that is all that matters but an educated person (or anyone after an actual ibcrease in power) could spend the same $$$ or a few $$$ more and make more power at every RPM just from better parts selection.
Lloyd
************************************************
Try returning a set of ported heads to a local machine shop?? I don't think Edlebrock deserves the bad mouthing they get as their heads proved a performance improvement by them selves at a price less than new LT4 heads and possibly make even more power.
************************************************** **
LT4 heads will win that battle EVERY TIME and they are not really anything spectacular.
Lloyd
************************************************** ***
I am not a head porter myself am not trying to patronize someone who is. But i have been literaly rippe off enough over the years to make the effort to research before a major purchase or modification. And while Smokey Y. (may he rest in peace) focused on the "bell or cone" shape of airflow over the valve he was mainly focused on a high rpm/speed endurance engine for oval track racing. If u study D. Vizard he focuses more on low lift flow and crating "swirl" for improved torque through out the curve - reasoning the greater area under the power curve is more important than peak power. And D. Vizard had more of a circuit track/drag race background.
*********************************************
Vizard had some intersting theories but most are to the way side now. If anyone is serious about learning about what makes the head work, you just have to dive in and learn. read all you can, buy CD's from the people that KNOW, talk with porters that are superiors, LISTEN TO THEM, soak up all you can and try it all.
Most do not wanna put in this time and effort and most would rather just repeat a few phrases they read on the internet so others think "wow, this guy knows his stuff".
Lloyd
********************************************
LE u don't even compare to what D. Vizard has for head porting skills. To claim your his superior sounds more like a proclomation of mental illness. It was his material i found the 170cc runner dosn't become restricted until 7,000 rpm on a 350". Well the truth hurts and u are making quite a whine. I can't believe any of your claimed hp numbers now and could never buy any of your products or services now. Every product Edlebrock makes is somehow inferrior in design and performance to yours and every piece of advice Vizard makes is inferrior and out dated too. Some how everything i say is not true then our disscussion is well over. I refuse to respond to hipocritical attacks.cardo
01-03-2012, 04:10 PM
#52
Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Red Oak Texas
Posts: 1,509
Re: Heads
is your Prozac refill empty?
never claimed to be the superior to Vizard, just the he is not the greatest mind in porting as you seem to think he is. To think the porting world has not evolved in the last 25-30 years (since anyone would have realistically claimed Vizard to be on top) is just crazy.
It seems you have it all figured out so you should just buy your Edelbrock heads and fill them with epoxy to get them down to 155 cc for more velocity, switch to a 30 degree valve job to get even more low lift flow, epoxy in a swirl vane like an LS1 head and get more "swirl" and then let me know how that works for you.
As mentioned, these are great with .420 lift cams in a dump rtruck spinning 2000-2500 RPM but if you are wanting power above 4500-5000 RPM you are gonna want something different than your Edelbrock heads with all that swirl, velocity, etc sales pitch.
I am posting from a standpoint to inform you and help you but if you are working for Edelbrocks PR department on a different agenda, that would explain alot.. . . . only other motive would be if you already purchased some Edelbrock heads and are wanting someone . . . . (anyone) . . . to agree with you that it was a great purchase.
You should really get the Prozac refilled.
Lloyd
never claimed to be the superior to Vizard, just the he is not the greatest mind in porting as you seem to think he is. To think the porting world has not evolved in the last 25-30 years (since anyone would have realistically claimed Vizard to be on top) is just crazy.
It seems you have it all figured out so you should just buy your Edelbrock heads and fill them with epoxy to get them down to 155 cc for more velocity, switch to a 30 degree valve job to get even more low lift flow, epoxy in a swirl vane like an LS1 head and get more "swirl" and then let me know how that works for you.
As mentioned, these are great with .420 lift cams in a dump rtruck spinning 2000-2500 RPM but if you are wanting power above 4500-5000 RPM you are gonna want something different than your Edelbrock heads with all that swirl, velocity, etc sales pitch.
I am posting from a standpoint to inform you and help you but if you are working for Edelbrocks PR department on a different agenda, that would explain alot.. . . . only other motive would be if you already purchased some Edelbrock heads and are wanting someone . . . . (anyone) . . . to agree with you that it was a great purchase.
You should really get the Prozac refilled.
Lloyd
Last edited by NightTrain66; 01-03-2012 at 08:51 PM.
01-03-2012, 04:21 PM
#53
Administrator
Join Date: Nov 1998
Location: Hell was full so they sent me to NJ
Posts: 70,677
Re: Heads
Obfuscation is right, u have done your best to distort everything i provided to help the OP.It was u that stated "any quality head porter would be ashamed to sell you a package at that price". We that fact is there ain't no consumer reports service documenting who the quality head porter's are and who ain't. The novice is easy prey and the Edlebrock Performers are a reasonable enough improvement over stock - even your own link exclaims the low end throttle response and torque improvements by the Edlebrocks. I only used the LT4 heads as a identifible comparision. Did u compare the Edleborck Performer head flow numbers to the LT4's??? Some how u boast 80-90hp gains with your LE1's - where's the proof? LE's w/s??
Apparently u haven't understood anything i have posted regarding velocity, swirl and higher torque under the greater part of the power curve. U reject it at your own loss - not mine. I just hope the OP has an open enough mined to sort this out for himself.
:
As clearly indicated in the comments above, you assume you know it all, and anyone who doesn't happen to agree with you 100% is ignorant. With a mind that closed, it's a waste of time for the rest of us to try and point you in the right direction. I'm not going to waste my time.
If this thread gets out of hand, it will be closed and there will be repercussions.
01-03-2012, 04:54 PM
#54
Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: TN
Posts: 271
Re: Heads
most people will argue what they have is the best or fastest. they should have more of a open mind. i got trickflow heads but cant say there the best out there. i can say there nice heads right out the box at 195cc but wish i did some work on them before i installed them a few years ago but plan on it in the near future. i believe Llyod sells tf heads with work done on them right?
Last edited by nick3; 01-03-2012 at 04:57 PM.
01-03-2012, 08:49 PM
#55
Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Red Oak Texas
Posts: 1,509
Re: Heads
cardo0,
Vizard was a smart guy and I am not debating cylinder heads with him, I am debating heads with a guy that has NEVER ported a head in his life and has only read a 25-35 year old book so HELL YEA I know more than the guy I am debating heads with.
Vizard was trying to help people AT THAT TIME build a street car with the parts available AT THAT TIME.
go grab your Vizard book and see what year it was FIRST published. Not your copy but look at all of the years and the earliest one mentioned is when it was first published.
You figure he did not write that overnight but somewhere between 6 moths to 5 years before that would be a fair guesstimate.
What heads were available at the time (dbl humps, Bowties, etc). . . . . look what options are available now, not in name brand but technology (port shape, measurements in certain araes, etc).
What cams were people using at the time? Hyd flat tappets with .420-..480 lift would be where most cams would fall. The hyd flat tappets at that time had slow ramp speed and valves did not spen much time in the high lift range and the spring technology at the time was not what it is now so ramp speeds were even slower.
He is talking about how to make a dbl hump, Bowtie, etc work well with low lift, mild ramp speed hyd flat tappet cams. Hell, you HAD TO focus on low lift flow because the valve was never above .500 lift and was not above .350-.400 lift for long at all.
MUCH better spring technology allows for Hyd rollers with far more aggressive ramps keeping valves in the higher lift range longer and making mid/high lift flow more important. Cam and spring technology has been part of what made what he wrote in his book outdated.
Not being stuck with dbl hump heads and having lots of castings available with far greater potential for measurements in certain areas has made what he wrote in his book outdated.
If he was to write a book today do you think the info about 85% venturi throat diameter, 30/45/60 valve jobs done with stone equipment, etc would be relative?
If you are gonna debate that he wrote something in his book 25-30 years ago, I will not disagree, you may have his book memorized. If you wanna debate what will make the average SBC/LT1 customer happiest with his stock bottom end spinning 5800-6200 RPM with a .520-.580 lift hyd roller cam, you need to ignore that book and listen to the info I am giving you.
More cubes, more RPM, larger lift cams (there ARE people running .580-.620 lift hyd roller on the street and having springs live for 30-40K miles), etc all make the stuff in his book even more outdated.
I stay swamped with work. I am not asking you to buy anything from me at all. I am just trying to educate you or anyone else that has NO HANDS on experience with what actually works in cylinder heads and hopefully they get heads from ANYONE as long as they read my post about runner volume, measurements at the pushrod pinch, over short side radius, constant velocity (NOT HIGHEST VELOCITY) and understand what to look for in a working set of heads.
Hopefully this sinks into everyone except for cardo0. I REALLY want him to get some Edelbrock heads and do the epoxy work, swirl vane and get the Edelbriock heads down to 155 cc and do a 30 degree valve job to increase low lift flow, swirl and velocity.
Lloyd
Vizard was a smart guy and I am not debating cylinder heads with him, I am debating heads with a guy that has NEVER ported a head in his life and has only read a 25-35 year old book so HELL YEA I know more than the guy I am debating heads with.
Vizard was trying to help people AT THAT TIME build a street car with the parts available AT THAT TIME.
go grab your Vizard book and see what year it was FIRST published. Not your copy but look at all of the years and the earliest one mentioned is when it was first published.
You figure he did not write that overnight but somewhere between 6 moths to 5 years before that would be a fair guesstimate.
What heads were available at the time (dbl humps, Bowties, etc). . . . . look what options are available now, not in name brand but technology (port shape, measurements in certain araes, etc).
What cams were people using at the time? Hyd flat tappets with .420-..480 lift would be where most cams would fall. The hyd flat tappets at that time had slow ramp speed and valves did not spen much time in the high lift range and the spring technology at the time was not what it is now so ramp speeds were even slower.
He is talking about how to make a dbl hump, Bowtie, etc work well with low lift, mild ramp speed hyd flat tappet cams. Hell, you HAD TO focus on low lift flow because the valve was never above .500 lift and was not above .350-.400 lift for long at all.
MUCH better spring technology allows for Hyd rollers with far more aggressive ramps keeping valves in the higher lift range longer and making mid/high lift flow more important. Cam and spring technology has been part of what made what he wrote in his book outdated.
Not being stuck with dbl hump heads and having lots of castings available with far greater potential for measurements in certain areas has made what he wrote in his book outdated.
If he was to write a book today do you think the info about 85% venturi throat diameter, 30/45/60 valve jobs done with stone equipment, etc would be relative?
If you are gonna debate that he wrote something in his book 25-30 years ago, I will not disagree, you may have his book memorized. If you wanna debate what will make the average SBC/LT1 customer happiest with his stock bottom end spinning 5800-6200 RPM with a .520-.580 lift hyd roller cam, you need to ignore that book and listen to the info I am giving you.
More cubes, more RPM, larger lift cams (there ARE people running .580-.620 lift hyd roller on the street and having springs live for 30-40K miles), etc all make the stuff in his book even more outdated.
I stay swamped with work. I am not asking you to buy anything from me at all. I am just trying to educate you or anyone else that has NO HANDS on experience with what actually works in cylinder heads and hopefully they get heads from ANYONE as long as they read my post about runner volume, measurements at the pushrod pinch, over short side radius, constant velocity (NOT HIGHEST VELOCITY) and understand what to look for in a working set of heads.
Hopefully this sinks into everyone except for cardo0. I REALLY want him to get some Edelbrock heads and do the epoxy work, swirl vane and get the Edelbriock heads down to 155 cc and do a 30 degree valve job to increase low lift flow, swirl and velocity.
Lloyd
Last edited by NightTrain66; 01-03-2012 at 09:24 PM.
01-03-2012, 09:08 PM
#56
Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Metro Detroit, MI
Posts: 1,326
Re: Heads
I'm putting a cam in this winter from Lloyed elliot. I have not decided if i'm going to get a set of heads from him or not. his seem kinda pricey. I found these Edelbrock heads on summit (I'd be changing the springs over to patriot gold springs) but I seem too can't find any reviews on them? Has anybody used these? Would you say there a good deal? or should I just save up and go with LE1??? Any opinoins are very much welcomed.
Heres the link.... Edelbrock 61909 - Edelbrock Performer LT1 Cylinder Heads - Overview - SummitRacing.com
Heres the link.... Edelbrock 61909 - Edelbrock Performer LT1 Cylinder Heads - Overview - SummitRacing.com
Edelbrock has a reputation for not making anything good for our cars.
I have never bought an Edelbrock product for my LT1 and honestly when shopping for parts I do not ever even consider them.
Definitely get your heads ported if you want to make some power. My ported heads were the best mod I ever did to my car.
01-03-2012, 09:18 PM
#57
Registered User
Join Date: Dec 1998
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 344
Re: Heads
This thread has gotten out of control to the point that I'm getting attacked in my PM for helping a LT1 enthusiast with my own rebuild experience.
People need to chill the hell out.
People need to chill the hell out.
01-03-2012, 09:26 PM
#58
Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Red Oak Texas
Posts: 1,509
Re: Heads
Injuneer is a mod, just forward him the PM's.
01-03-2012, 09:29 PM
#59
Registered User
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Bay Area, CA
Posts: 2,001
Re: Heads
Wow...it's been years since I've seen a thread like this on here. 
I'm not going to wade into the debate other than to say that Edelbrock makes a very good quality casting, but I have never been happy with their final port, chamber or valve job. They are also not "Ready to Run" out of the box, consistently the valve job is not concentric to the guide. Their spring packages also leave much to be desired.
I'm not going to wade into the debate other than to say that Edelbrock makes a very good quality casting, but I have never been happy with their final port, chamber or valve job. They are also not "Ready to Run" out of the box, consistently the valve job is not concentric to the guide. Their spring packages also leave much to be desired.
Last edited by MachinistOne; 01-03-2012 at 09:32 PM.