I am having some major confusion about the head bolts. The bolts I took off the car had washers even though the stock bolts I ordered new from rockauto.com came without washers. So I said, ok, whatever I'll just re-use them. But I lost some so in the process of trying to find new washers, the dealership told me that they don't sell just the washers, so I try to buy the head bolts for one side for the washers, and they say, "oh, hold on a sec, they actually changed these bolts over to washer-less, so they no longer come with washers. But I've read here and cz28 that they are needed. But if they are washerless and I put washers on them, that will have affected the torque. Speaking of, I need to take the head that I already torqued down off anyhow to change the spring retainers, is my gasket ok since it's been torqued, or should I buy another new one?

 

Absolutly use washers. They'll keep the bolt or nut depending on what your using from guilling the head and it helps spread the load. Even on cast heads i like using them. The best way is to put a little grease or moly lube on both sides of the washer to keep everything from crabbing each other.

 

Yes washers with lube during assembly.

 

ok, so here's the dilemma with that....I can't find any washers. I looked all over the internet and when I went to the dealer they told me that they no longer have washers, even if I buy the bolts they come without washers....I only need 4 or 5.

 

I have an old set of stock head bolts and just tried to pull the washers off for you. I can't get the washers off the bolts.

Try your local hardware store for some hardened wahsers.

 

Measure the washers you still have - inside diameter, outside diameter and thickness. Then go to McMaster-Carr and look for what you need. The have, for example, a case-hardened, high precision, corrosion resistant washer (parallel withing 0.005", thickness within 0.010"), sold in packs of 5 or 10. Available in SAE or metric. Might be a bit on the thick side, compared to what you have, but look through what they have available.

http://www.mcmaster.com/#

 

but it looks as though these bolts I have were engineered to be used without washers just as I was told, the flanges are wider, and with washers it looks like thread would be lost. If I were to take this to the dealership, they would install these other bolts I have without washers.

However, if you are right, I've found out that the bolts that were taken out were ARP bolts with washers, do you recommened i just get another set of these? I really don't want to have to pay for them money is extremely tight, but I am still trying to get the car back on the road as soon as possible.

 

You can reuse the ARP head bolts. Just get the wahsers you need and you're good to go.

 

thanks guys. I see arp does sell special purpose washers, I'll try and see if they have ones that fit this.

 

A "regular" washer, even if it is flat and hardened is not correct and can cause (big) problems. If you look at a head bolt washer, the inner edge is radiused on one side of the washer. That is the side that abuts the head of the bolt. If you look closely at the bolt, the head of the bolt has a radius where is meets the shaft. This is to prevent a stress riser, which could cause the head of the bolt to shear off. If you use a washer w/o a radiused inner edge or install it incorreclt is will dig into the shoulder of the bolt and potentially cause failure.

So, you need washers and they need to be the correct washers installed in the correct orientation. I am no expert engine builder, but there are probably hundreds of "little" things like this you need to know when bolting one together. That is why I encourage people to get help the first few times they do it from someone who knows the right way to do it. I often see advice on here about how easy it is to assemble an engine. Well, it's not rocket science or brain surgery, but there are a lot of subtleties that seem minor but can result in a major failure if not done right.

Rich

 

wow, didn't know that rich, I'm thinking about buying a whole new set from arp then, too bad they don't sell each head set separately.

I feel stupid for making a big deal out of it and for buying a bolt set for each head already and being told different things about the bolts not needing washers.

 

Some bolts need washers and some bolts come with the washer incorperated with the head of the bolt.

 

I have purchased head bolt (7/16) arp washers from Summitracing.com. They are hard, flat, and have special chamfer/ reliefs for the under-head bolt radius. I use them in other places also. B.

 

The separate washer prevents the steel bolt from galling the aluminum head. A head bolt with an integral washer would not offer that advantage.

 

do I have to re-torque the heads after it's been driven? btw, I'm doing 65ft lbs in 3 passes what do you guys torque it down to?