Going to Get heads today Quick Question
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Joined: May 2001
Posts: 264
From: Vermilion, Ohio USA
Trey I Don't believe that Stock Casings will outperfom AFR's I just don't like the Idea of paying a ton of $$ for the heads I already Have!!! I'd much rather get new ones and Not have to worry about warpage or anything else!
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,781
From: Detroit area
Joe,the stock LT1 heads have a 170cc intake volume.Just FYI.I ordered some AFR's,not going to tell you what size.
Bigger isnt always better.You can always sell your old heads or have them done.Even try it yourself.
Bigger isnt always better.You can always sell your old heads or have them done.Even try it yourself.
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Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 1,791
From: Upstate New York,USA
Well, that was brief and non-informative. Throwing a blanket "BS" reference w/o offering anything to counter whats being said. Tell me what part you object to and let's discuss it. I understand that heads, like cams, need always be evaluated in a context. Context being, "street", "street strip", "weekend warrior" and "Trailer Queen". This guy seems to be focused on a mostly street, some strip context. Like I mentioned, Flows can be purposefully manipulated. Certainly, a balance of Flow, Velocity and Swirl has to be obtained but once again, it's gotta be tied to the context. Optimal flow for a race only car is huge. But put that head on a daily driver in Houston Traffic and it's gonna be a pig. It's the combination that yields the best results and even at that, it's a compromise on a street car.
And what's this "Alarmist" statement "Someone better PRAY(?) that Phil or Lloyd gets on here"..... Is that like "Wait'll my big brother gets here. Then you'll be sorry..."?
and this one "Hell I could get insane flow out of LT1 heads too, I just wouldn't sugest trying to get power out of them" .... is there someone that's not getting power out of their LT1 heads here? I'm kicking similar modded LS1's to the curb with my home ported stock valve sized LT1 castings, a 3rd owner CC224/236 cam and $360 headers. I got third place in the MTI spring Break shootout 11 second index and every car I eliminated getting there was an 11 second LS1. Even the time trials were against other 11 second LS1's. Who's not making power with their LT1 heads here?
And what's this "Alarmist" statement "Someone better PRAY(?) that Phil or Lloyd gets on here"..... Is that like "Wait'll my big brother gets here. Then you'll be sorry..."?
and this one "Hell I could get insane flow out of LT1 heads too, I just wouldn't sugest trying to get power out of them" .... is there someone that's not getting power out of their LT1 heads here? I'm kicking similar modded LS1's to the curb with my home ported stock valve sized LT1 castings, a 3rd owner CC224/236 cam and $360 headers. I got third place in the MTI spring Break shootout 11 second index and every car I eliminated getting there was an 11 second LS1. Even the time trials were against other 11 second LS1's. Who's not making power with their LT1 heads here?
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,505
From: looking for a flow bench so Brook and I can race
Originally posted by DirtyDaveW
Well, that was brief and non-informative. Throwing a blanket "BS" reference w/o offering anything to counter whats being said. Tell me what part you object to and let's discuss it. I understand that heads, like cams, need always be evaluated in a context. Context being, "street", "street strip", "weekend warrior" and "Trailer Queen". This guy seems to be focused on a mostly street, some strip context. Like I mentioned, Flows can be purposefully manipulated. Certainly, a balance of Flow, Velocity and Swirl has to be obtained but once again, it's gotta be tied to the context. Optimal flow for a race only car is huge. But put that head on a daily driver in Houston Traffic and it's gonna be a pig. It's the combination that yields the best results and even at that, it's a compromise on a street car.
And what's this "Alarmist" statement "Someone better PRAY(?) that Phil or Lloyd gets on here"..... Is that like "Wait'll my big brother gets here. Then you'll be sorry..."?
and this one "Hell I could get insane flow out of LT1 heads too, I just wouldn't sugest trying to get power out of them" .... is there someone that's not getting power out of their LT1 heads here? I'm kicking similar modded LS1's to the curb with my home ported stock valve sized LT1 castings, a 3rd owner CC224/236 cam and $360 headers. I got third place in the MTI spring Break shootout 11 second index and every car I eliminated getting there was an 11 second LS1. Even the time trials were against other 11 second LS1's. Who's not making power with their LT1 heads here?
Well, that was brief and non-informative. Throwing a blanket "BS" reference w/o offering anything to counter whats being said. Tell me what part you object to and let's discuss it. I understand that heads, like cams, need always be evaluated in a context. Context being, "street", "street strip", "weekend warrior" and "Trailer Queen". This guy seems to be focused on a mostly street, some strip context. Like I mentioned, Flows can be purposefully manipulated. Certainly, a balance of Flow, Velocity and Swirl has to be obtained but once again, it's gotta be tied to the context. Optimal flow for a race only car is huge. But put that head on a daily driver in Houston Traffic and it's gonna be a pig. It's the combination that yields the best results and even at that, it's a compromise on a street car.
And what's this "Alarmist" statement "Someone better PRAY(?) that Phil or Lloyd gets on here"..... Is that like "Wait'll my big brother gets here. Then you'll be sorry..."?
and this one "Hell I could get insane flow out of LT1 heads too, I just wouldn't sugest trying to get power out of them" .... is there someone that's not getting power out of their LT1 heads here? I'm kicking similar modded LS1's to the curb with my home ported stock valve sized LT1 castings, a 3rd owner CC224/236 cam and $360 headers. I got third place in the MTI spring Break shootout 11 second index and every car I eliminated getting there was an 11 second LS1. Even the time trials were against other 11 second LS1's. Who's not making power with their LT1 heads here?
I'll just throw out a few more blanket statemetns- flow isn't everything. How many times have people bought phils heads, got worse flow numbers and made more power?
Combos heads made like 900hp with 25xcfm. Crazy huh.
Flow numbers can varry so much from one honest flow bench to another its insane. Throw in a guy whos working a bit of voodoo and heads aren't even comprable even more.
Just the fact that someone asked if the combustin chambers were 195cc's is pretty silly. Think about what 195cc's are
thats a 10cm x 10cm 2 cm block perhaps "pray" was a strong word and that reply was just strong in general. I appologize for that. I'm damn skeptical about 300cfm heads for $1800 though
I'm not saying you dont make power, cant make power or are a poor head porter. But to say his heads are better because they flow 300cfm is pretty rediclious. I've seen too many crappy heads around here make too much power.
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Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 1,791
From: Upstate New York,USA
True.. I was at GTP one time talking to Craig and he was very incensed that one of his customers posted his flow numbers from a set of heads Craig had done for him. The reason being, perception is everything for an undecided (potential) customer. Craigs numbers seemingly compared poorly to other porters offerings but the truth was told on the track. They made good numbers at the track, indicating the power. But someone not very knowledgeable about heads would probably bypass purchasing the GTP heads/service if he *only* looked at published numbers.
It's a very tough balancing act. Flow, Velocity, Swirl and the intended use of the car all have to be weighted and considered for the end result to be satisfactory. The safest bet is to go with known and proven combos/porters. Other than that, its a crapshoot. I will be posting my numbers both from GTP's flow bench and the track so that will be the proof in the pudding, as they say.
It's a very tough balancing act. Flow, Velocity, Swirl and the intended use of the car all have to be weighted and considered for the end result to be satisfactory. The safest bet is to go with known and proven combos/porters. Other than that, its a crapshoot. I will be posting my numbers both from GTP's flow bench and the track so that will be the proof in the pudding, as they say.
Last edited by DirtyDaveW; Jun 26, 2003 at 02:36 PM.
Thread Starter
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Posts: 264
From: Vermilion, Ohio USA
The one thing I seem to have learned from this post is that Flow numbers are not the most important factor. I'm gonna go ahead and get the AFR's, and if it sucks, I'll sell em and still have unmolested stock heads to turn to It seems the safest route right now!
So I think I'll go with:
AFR 195's
LT4 Intake
My Existing Crane Gold 1.6RR
My Existing Hotcam
Stock Lifters
Stock Puhrods
AFR Hydra-Rev
Sound Like a Plan
So I think I'll go with:
AFR 195's
LT4 Intake
My Existing Crane Gold 1.6RR
My Existing Hotcam
Stock Lifters
Stock Puhrods
AFR Hydra-Rev
Sound Like a Plan
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,505
From: looking for a flow bench so Brook and I can race
Originally posted by JOE96Z28SS
The one thing I seem to have learned from this post is that Flow numbers are not the most important factor. I'm gonna go ahead and get the AFR's, and if it sucks, I'll sell em and still have unmolested stock heads to turn to It seems the safest route right now!
So I think I'll go with:
AFR 195's
LT4 Intake
My Existing Crane Gold 1.6RR
My Existing Hotcam
Stock Lifters
Stock Puhrods
AFR Hydra-Rev
Sound Like a Plan
The one thing I seem to have learned from this post is that Flow numbers are not the most important factor. I'm gonna go ahead and get the AFR's, and if it sucks, I'll sell em and still have unmolested stock heads to turn to It seems the safest route right now!
So I think I'll go with:
AFR 195's
LT4 Intake
My Existing Crane Gold 1.6RR
My Existing Hotcam
Stock Lifters
Stock Puhrods
AFR Hydra-Rev
Sound Like a Plan
Personally, Id get the heads ported now.. I am doing a head swap right now and I will never do it again. Mainly because it kills me that i shouldn't have to- i should have done it right the first time around
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Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 1,791
From: Upstate New York,USA
Just looking here at JDS Performance stuff..
http://www.jdsperformance.com/index....tem&inmake=all Hey! Says Free shipping with these heads!
Looks like you can get them in two different combustion chamber CC's. Be sure to ask for the small one (56cc).
Treyz28 is right in saying the rev kit won't be needed for the LT4 HOT cams .525 lift.
http://www.jdsperformance.com/index....tem&inmake=all Hey! Says Free shipping with these heads!
Looks like you can get them in two different combustion chamber CC's. Be sure to ask for the small one (56cc).
Treyz28 is right in saying the rev kit won't be needed for the LT4 HOT cams .525 lift.
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,505
From: looking for a flow bench so Brook and I can race
Originally posted by FireAm94
Well..you could look at it as cheap insurance. If you break a pushrod it keeps the lifter in place. *shrug*
Joe
Well..you could look at it as cheap insurance. If you break a pushrod it keeps the lifter in place. *shrug*
Joe
The pushrod will bend and thats that. end of story.
edit:
where the hell is the lifter going to go
Last edited by treyZ28; Jun 26, 2003 at 11:33 PM.
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,505
From: looking for a flow bench so Brook and I can race
Originally posted by JOE96Z28SS
Trey I Don't believe that Stock Casings will outperfom AFR's I just don't like the Idea of paying a ton of $$ for the heads I already Have!!! I'd much rather get new ones and Not have to worry about warpage or anything else!
Trey I Don't believe that Stock Casings will outperfom AFR's I just don't like the Idea of paying a ton of $$ for the heads I already Have!!! I'd much rather get new ones and Not have to worry about warpage or anything else!
5 lines :thumbL:
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,505
From: looking for a flow bench so Brook and I can race
Originally posted by FireAm94
Well consider this the first time you heard of it because it happened to me last year. I don't really care what he does...just throwing an idea out there....not flame bait
Joe
Well consider this the first time you heard of it because it happened to me last year. I don't really care what he does...just throwing an idea out there....not flame bait
Joe
were they really crappy cast/wooden pushrods?
I cant see any hardened (even OEM hardened) pushrod snapping, especialy with only .500 or .525 lift,whatever the hotcam has...
why didn't it bend
Last edited by treyZ28; Jun 26, 2003 at 11:54 PM.
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Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 699
From: Decatur, AL
First off...I meant to say keeps pushrod in place...lol...oops. My car bent a pushrod (oem) and when it bent it broke. Luckily nothing else was damaged. BTW...you must have the only set of crappy wooden pushrods i've ever seen
Joe.
Joe.
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Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 1,791
From: Upstate New York,USA
Well, just got back from GTP. I took one of my ported LT1 heads over to him on Friday to have the head flowed on one cylinder. I suppose he(Craig Gallant at GTP) just picks a random one or perhaps the convenient one (it was one of the end cylinders anyway).
My porter said that he'd got 283 or 287 out of the heads during his port work. That might have been on one cylinder. GTP's flow sheet, for whatever reason, are lower. This may just be flowbench methods, setup, or like chassis dyno's, everyone's unique.
Here's the tale of the tape, err... flow bench.
Valve Intake MAX CFM: 265.4 Avg CFM: 239.2
Lift Flow
===================
.2014 152.0
.3069 208.6
.4009 243.9
.4532 256.3
.5044 261.3
.5510 262.5
.6038 263.5
.6502 265.4
Valve Exhaust MAX CFM: 200.4 Avg CFM: 174.8
Lift Flow
===================
.2013 115.1
.3002 142.6
.4006 166.4
.4511 175.4
.5030 186.4
.5518 190.9
.6047 196.3
.6512 199.5
.7092 200.4
My porter said that he'd got 283 or 287 out of the heads during his port work. That might have been on one cylinder. GTP's flow sheet, for whatever reason, are lower. This may just be flowbench methods, setup, or like chassis dyno's, everyone's unique.
Here's the tale of the tape, err... flow bench.
Valve Intake MAX CFM: 265.4 Avg CFM: 239.2
Lift Flow
===================
.2014 152.0
.3069 208.6
.4009 243.9
.4532 256.3
.5044 261.3
.5510 262.5
.6038 263.5
.6502 265.4
Valve Exhaust MAX CFM: 200.4 Avg CFM: 174.8
Lift Flow
===================
.2013 115.1
.3002 142.6
.4006 166.4
.4511 175.4
.5030 186.4
.5518 190.9
.6047 196.3
.6512 199.5
.7092 200.4