5.0 or LS1????
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Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 135
From: In front of you
Let's see...we have you, who theorizes and considers doing things to their 5.0, and you have me: who has actually gone and done it.
You are speaking from speculation, I am speaking real life experience.
Not true at all.
Nope, I'm about at that level now. And my car is fine. Without a tune. A tuned 5.0 can withstand about 600hp at the crank, and there are plenty of examples making much more than that.
WTF? Is that in Canadian money? The Trick Flow head/intake/cam package can be had for ~1600. All bearings in my engine were about 120 bucks, gaskets were another 100 bucks, and I have the stock rotating assembly.
Actually, yes you can. And I did. And my car was just fine.
Gears are optional. My gear was 180 bucks, did the install myself. I still have the stock axles and stock traction lok. I launched at 5500rpm on a 175 shot on ET Streets and my car is still fine. Now I have a blower, and I'll be doing the same.
Everybody loves to bag on the T-5, but if you drive properly it will last. I'm still on my stock T-5. And if I did break it, the Tremec TKO is not that much more expensive.
Bottom line: If you want to go fast for cheap or have an all out drag car, the 5.0 is the better car. If you want a fast as hell daily driver with modern creature comforts, keep the LS1.
You are speaking from speculation, I am speaking real life experience.
Originally posted by blacknight
Twin turbo's on a stock 5.0 block is like driving around with a stick of dynamite.
Twin turbo's on a stock 5.0 block is like driving around with a stick of dynamite.
Originally posted by blacknight
The stock block can handle I believe 500 hp at the flywheel.
The stock block can handle I believe 500 hp at the flywheel.
Originally posted by blacknight
You would be highly advised to get a much stronger block for that. I thought for a long time about having a engine built for my stang and it would costs at least $4000 in just parts.
You would be highly advised to get a much stronger block for that. I thought for a long time about having a engine built for my stang and it would costs at least $4000 in just parts.
Originally posted by blacknight
You can't just slap on a set of heads and cam and intake and go.
You can't just slap on a set of heads and cam and intake and go.
Originally posted by blacknight
Then figure in having rear gears done at $400-600 and have some 31spline axles installed along with a different differential so the rear won't blowup under your 5000rpm clutch drops with slicks
Then figure in having rear gears done at $400-600 and have some 31spline axles installed along with a different differential so the rear won't blowup under your 5000rpm clutch drops with slicks
Originally posted by blacknight
Then the trans would blowup since t-5's are weak.
Then the trans would blowup since t-5's are weak.
Bottom line: If you want to go fast for cheap or have an all out drag car, the 5.0 is the better car. If you want a fast as hell daily driver with modern creature comforts, keep the LS1.
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Joined: Jul 1998
Posts: 27
From: MD
I love how people speculate all this stuff about ford. Big Red Jim has it down. I am sorry, but anyone that is bashing the ford for weakness, you dont have a clue.
The setup I posted Earlier on my 93 GT, that was the stock short block. Yes I just took and bolted heads on, threw a cam in it and bolted on an Intake. I then took it to the track with my STOCK T5, My STOCK axles and 3.73's and some slicks and launched it off the stock rev limiter of 6250. Guess what, I did that a bunch of times and it NEVER broke.
As for the Rear end, Lets look at a statement made that you need to replace the gears/axles/carrier... Ok thats fine
Gears 200.00
Carrier 250.oo (Trac Lok, which are nice to use and have little problems in the 31 spline truck series)
Axles 250.00
So that is 700.00 that a 5.0 would have in a rear, and you would never have a problem with it.
Now for the GM rear (what a joke this is, but I will waste some time to point this out)
12 Bolt.. 2500.00 People break them still
9" 2500.00
Give or take a few hundred on the GM rear, thats around a 1700.00 dollar difference...hmmmm Guess what, lets say you want that TKO trans, the money saved on the rear will pay for the trans AND a clutch.
And when T5's break its not from launches, its from power shifting them, which I have seen plenty of T-56's wasted this way also.
Fuel system on the 5.0, Yup have to change that stock pump out. Stock rails/fuel lines are good to 500-550hp. Guess the GM pump you dont hu?
Now, I took my 93 engine out of my 93 because it has Hyperutectic pistons (Gee funny so does the LS1, major weak point for power adder) Put a motor from a 91 in it, did nothing to it, totally stock short block the way it came out of the car. Put in a small nitrous cam, same stock trick flow heads off the other motor, same Cobra intake, shorty headers, STOCK COMPUTER NO PROGRAM (More money you have to spend in tuning for the LS1) and put on a 200 shot, car ran 10.8@128 on ET streets. And I did have a Tremec 3550 in the car at this point.
So lets say you buy a 92 and down 5.0 to get the forged pistons and find one with about 70,000 on it. This motor will be fine, you buy the car for 6000.00 dollars
Heads 1300 (with rocker arms and push rods)
Cam 200
Intake 400
Headers 200
MAF 200
TB 200
NOS Big shot kit 600
Fuel pump up grade 200
MSD 200
Trans 1100 (Tremec 3550)
Clutch 350
Rear 700.00
Off road pipe 120
Cat back 250
injectors 250
So this all comes out to 6070.00 in the drivetrain. Some of these prices are a little high, but there is always misc. that you miss. Plus this will get you into the 10's with near 130mph trap speeds. Now add the price of the car you are around 13000.00 lets say. Hell I will throw in another 2000.00 to play with, your at 15,000. for the mustang running 10's with 130mph trap speeds.
So lets see an LS1 Camaro, well the car is going to be around 12,000 for the most part, figure 2500 in the rear, so lets see you are at 14,500 for a stock LS1 with a rear in it. WoW...
Its not even a comparison, if you want to go fast cheap, you will never beat the 5.0. And to top all that off, you can find most of the parts listed for close to half the cost if you look for used parts. And if you want 9's, add 4000.00 for the 408 shortblock (with forged everything) and the misc. you need to do the swap from 5.0. Now you have a 9 second mustang for 19,000.00. So hell I will add another 3000.00 just for the sake of misc that you may need in suspension/fuel and such. Now you are at 22,000.00 for a 9 second mustang. Including buying the car. And you could knock off alot of the car money by buying a 4cyl car, since you will change it all out with a new motor and such anyway. So lets say buy a 4cyl mustang for 2000.00, add some money for the rear end housing, wiring harness so you have 4000.00 in the car, now you have that 9's car for 20,000.00
How much would it cost to go 9's reliably in a Camaro with an LS1?
The setup I posted Earlier on my 93 GT, that was the stock short block. Yes I just took and bolted heads on, threw a cam in it and bolted on an Intake. I then took it to the track with my STOCK T5, My STOCK axles and 3.73's and some slicks and launched it off the stock rev limiter of 6250. Guess what, I did that a bunch of times and it NEVER broke.
As for the Rear end, Lets look at a statement made that you need to replace the gears/axles/carrier... Ok thats fine
Gears 200.00
Carrier 250.oo (Trac Lok, which are nice to use and have little problems in the 31 spline truck series)
Axles 250.00
So that is 700.00 that a 5.0 would have in a rear, and you would never have a problem with it.
Now for the GM rear (what a joke this is, but I will waste some time to point this out)
12 Bolt.. 2500.00 People break them still
9" 2500.00
Give or take a few hundred on the GM rear, thats around a 1700.00 dollar difference...hmmmm Guess what, lets say you want that TKO trans, the money saved on the rear will pay for the trans AND a clutch.
And when T5's break its not from launches, its from power shifting them, which I have seen plenty of T-56's wasted this way also.
Fuel system on the 5.0, Yup have to change that stock pump out. Stock rails/fuel lines are good to 500-550hp. Guess the GM pump you dont hu?
Now, I took my 93 engine out of my 93 because it has Hyperutectic pistons (Gee funny so does the LS1, major weak point for power adder) Put a motor from a 91 in it, did nothing to it, totally stock short block the way it came out of the car. Put in a small nitrous cam, same stock trick flow heads off the other motor, same Cobra intake, shorty headers, STOCK COMPUTER NO PROGRAM (More money you have to spend in tuning for the LS1) and put on a 200 shot, car ran 10.8@128 on ET streets. And I did have a Tremec 3550 in the car at this point.
So lets say you buy a 92 and down 5.0 to get the forged pistons and find one with about 70,000 on it. This motor will be fine, you buy the car for 6000.00 dollars
Heads 1300 (with rocker arms and push rods)
Cam 200
Intake 400
Headers 200
MAF 200
TB 200
NOS Big shot kit 600
Fuel pump up grade 200
MSD 200
Trans 1100 (Tremec 3550)
Clutch 350
Rear 700.00
Off road pipe 120
Cat back 250
injectors 250
So this all comes out to 6070.00 in the drivetrain. Some of these prices are a little high, but there is always misc. that you miss. Plus this will get you into the 10's with near 130mph trap speeds. Now add the price of the car you are around 13000.00 lets say. Hell I will throw in another 2000.00 to play with, your at 15,000. for the mustang running 10's with 130mph trap speeds.
So lets see an LS1 Camaro, well the car is going to be around 12,000 for the most part, figure 2500 in the rear, so lets see you are at 14,500 for a stock LS1 with a rear in it. WoW...
Its not even a comparison, if you want to go fast cheap, you will never beat the 5.0. And to top all that off, you can find most of the parts listed for close to half the cost if you look for used parts. And if you want 9's, add 4000.00 for the 408 shortblock (with forged everything) and the misc. you need to do the swap from 5.0. Now you have a 9 second mustang for 19,000.00. So hell I will add another 3000.00 just for the sake of misc that you may need in suspension/fuel and such. Now you are at 22,000.00 for a 9 second mustang. Including buying the car. And you could knock off alot of the car money by buying a 4cyl car, since you will change it all out with a new motor and such anyway. So lets say buy a 4cyl mustang for 2000.00, add some money for the rear end housing, wiring harness so you have 4000.00 in the car, now you have that 9's car for 20,000.00
How much would it cost to go 9's reliably in a Camaro with an LS1?
Last edited by Cobra R; Sep 26, 2002 at 05:35 PM.
Registered User
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 28
From: Toronto, ON, Canada
Originally posted by Big Red Jim
I am unaware of any LS1s in the 7s at the moment....5.0 is still a better drag car.
Agree with the daily driver comment though.
I am unaware of any LS1s in the 7s at the moment....5.0 is still a better drag car.
Agree with the daily driver comment though.
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 681
From: Republic of Korea
Originally posted by STALLONE81
I saw a red LS1 in the high 6's almost a year ago at MIR (maryland international raceway)....that thing was crazy...
I saw a red LS1 in the high 6's almost a year ago at MIR (maryland international raceway)....that thing was crazy...
There are NO LS1s even close to running the 1/4 mile in the 6s. Fastest one has ran a 9.1, the car will be in the 8s with a little better 60' but that's still nowhere near 6s.
I seriously doubt an LS1 will ever break mid 8s.
Last edited by 96SFLZ; Sep 26, 2002 at 07:36 PM.
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Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 28
From: Toronto, ON, Canada
Originally posted by 96SFLZ
Um...maybe you were looking at his 1/8th mile times? Or...it's quite possible that the car was just a '98+ Camaro body with a blown BB making over 1500hp under the hood (read: Not an LS1).
There are NO LS1s even close to running the 1/4 mile in the 6s. Fastest one has ran a 9.1, the car will be in the 8s with a little better 60' but that's still nowhere near 6s.
I seriously doubt an LS1 will ever break mid 8s.
Um...maybe you were looking at his 1/8th mile times? Or...it's quite possible that the car was just a '98+ Camaro body with a blown BB making over 1500hp under the hood (read: Not an LS1).
There are NO LS1s even close to running the 1/4 mile in the 6s. Fastest one has ran a 9.1, the car will be in the 8s with a little better 60' but that's still nowhere near 6s.
I seriously doubt an LS1 will ever break mid 8s.
)post what was previously the best time, mid 9's.....
i love the supras and the 300zxtt's and the M3's or any of the other high end imports (u gotta respect the speed of those cars), but i hate... absolutely HATE little civics that are molded after "The Fast and The Furious"....
Last edited by STALLONE81; Sep 26, 2002 at 07:46 PM.
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 736
From: Hagerstown, MD
I would definitly find actually find one before i went and sold the camaro. but if you get a 5.0 your going to be sorry in the long run because your giving up a car that's 6 years newer, still has warrenty, has more power initialy, gets better gas mileage, looks and rides nicer, has a nice interior, t-tops, nicer stereo, sits lower, handles better. and a new camaro gets more attention than a old rustang. you will really miss the camaro. I don't know about you, but the idea of sitting under a car every weekend for months and spenping thousands of dollars just to make it faster than an Ls1 isn't my idea of fun. i'd rather be crusing.
Registered User
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 71
From: Springfield, MO
I two have been on both sides of the fence (almost). I currently own a 95 z with a forged component 355 motor with heads and cc305 plus a 125 shot. It beats the pants off every ls1 car in my town I've raced. I know that is not the case for everywhere, but that's beside the point. My previous car was a 91 GT with a t5. I never did break the tranney or rear, but I was under the thing every few days doing something. The car a heads and e303 and ran well. It would spin the tires like no ones business. I loved how small it felt compared to the z, but I know I could never go back to it for a daily driver. There is no comparison's between the interiors. Now on the flip side, if I was going drag car, it would probly be a 4 banger notch. Then you could put in whatever you wanted and insure it for next to nothing. It's actuallt something I', considering doing since a friend of mine just did. He took a 84 4 banger vert and dropped a 422 stroker in. The car runs 10.5ish motor and 9's 150 shot. He's in it for less than $12,000 for EVERYTHING. It pays to know people, have good wrenching skills, and buy used.
My two cents summarized... if this is your only car, keep the ls1. If not and you want to go hella fast cheap, go 5.0.
My two cents summarized... if this is your only car, keep the ls1. If not and you want to go hella fast cheap, go 5.0.
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Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 383
From: Goleta, CA
I would suggest to just keep the LS1 Camaro, and then just buy an older 5.0 (if fords are your thing).. I would personally never buy a ford let a lone drive one but that is me.. I would just go out and buy an old 67 - 73 Camaro/Firebird (nothing special just maybe a 6 cyl common car), then cut the whole Floor Pan and build the floor and out of Aluminum (just to save weight), Then get either a Small block or Big Block Chev motor and build it up.. it all comes down to how much money you want to spend and what do you want.. Me personally I bought an 2002 z28 for my daily driver and I am building a 68 C10 pickup as a project that will still be able to haul anything I need, tow a boat or trailer and still be fast as hell while sucking some Premium Fuel... This just what I am doing because I want to be able to drive my daily driver without having to worry about it breaking down because if I have to something like take my engine and tranny out to shorten frame on my 68 Project Truck, I don't want to rush it back together and risk of my frame to break because I rushed to get it back together just to go to work the next day.. Or I don't want to drive a car or truck that I am working on especially while doing body work (rust repair)..
Plus to me I want a fast DD but if I want to mod a little then I will at least I wont have to worry about it breaking down. Trust me, it took 2 months before I fully worked the bugs out of my 350 in my 68 Chev truck, that used to be my daily driver for a year.. Fun to drive but when I would be on my way to work or home, and it broke down because 1. 2 days after building the engine my th400 tranny blew.. 2. Went through 3 electric fuel pumps because of being stupid by putting fuelpump in engine compartment and running headers. 3. electronic module in my HEI was shutting down.. Other then these problems that I had, I was barely starting to do body work and I did not want to drive it everyday while I was cutting out rust and using patch panels to get the cab back in shape for paint... Plus you have to think about gas mileage as well..
If you want to make a fast 5.0 or any older car remember the general rule is more power = more gas use... If you work say 30 miles one way and you get 8 - 10 mpg, then you are going to be spending a lot of money on gas, that was another reason why I bought something else as a daily driver... 6 mpg in town and 8 mpg on freeway sucking gas @ 1.90 per gallon and having to drive 120 miles a day = No Money... Well I say do what you want, I am just giving you a low down on what you can expect depending on what you want to do...
Plus to me I want a fast DD but if I want to mod a little then I will at least I wont have to worry about it breaking down. Trust me, it took 2 months before I fully worked the bugs out of my 350 in my 68 Chev truck, that used to be my daily driver for a year.. Fun to drive but when I would be on my way to work or home, and it broke down because 1. 2 days after building the engine my th400 tranny blew.. 2. Went through 3 electric fuel pumps because of being stupid by putting fuelpump in engine compartment and running headers. 3. electronic module in my HEI was shutting down.. Other then these problems that I had, I was barely starting to do body work and I did not want to drive it everyday while I was cutting out rust and using patch panels to get the cab back in shape for paint... Plus you have to think about gas mileage as well..
If you want to make a fast 5.0 or any older car remember the general rule is more power = more gas use... If you work say 30 miles one way and you get 8 - 10 mpg, then you are going to be spending a lot of money on gas, that was another reason why I bought something else as a daily driver... 6 mpg in town and 8 mpg on freeway sucking gas @ 1.90 per gallon and having to drive 120 miles a day = No Money... Well I say do what you want, I am just giving you a low down on what you can expect depending on what you want to do...
Last edited by dmnall; Jan 20, 2003 at 03:44 AM.
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Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 3
From: Godfrey,Ill.usa
I will agree with the tranny prob on the 5.0s.. I have only blown up one myself.. And it did it sure as **** with a powershift into 2nd gear.. But my rebuilt T-5 tranny with heavy duty gear set has seen countless hours of beating and keeps coming back for more..
Although 5.0s are gettin old.. You can still find a nice fox body.. And it can still be a good daily driver..
A buddy of mine has a 95 GT stang. With Trick Flow heads, trick flow intake, E-303 cam, 9psi powerdyne supercharger, 3.73s, full exhaust with cats, on the stock short block, with a little under 100,000 miles, and it runs like a top.. And it is driven every day and passes emisions with flying colors. And you dont even want me to tell you what it does to unsuspecting LS1 Camaros. But I can tell you one thing it anit pretty..
Although 5.0s are gettin old.. You can still find a nice fox body.. And it can still be a good daily driver..
A buddy of mine has a 95 GT stang. With Trick Flow heads, trick flow intake, E-303 cam, 9psi powerdyne supercharger, 3.73s, full exhaust with cats, on the stock short block, with a little under 100,000 miles, and it runs like a top.. And it is driven every day and passes emisions with flying colors. And you dont even want me to tell you what it does to unsuspecting LS1 Camaros. But I can tell you one thing it anit pretty..
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Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 30
From: NJ
I really can't add much Ford input to this discussion as I know nothing about them, all I do know is that I have never lost to one. I use my 99 z28 as a daily driver and haven't raced it yet but if you do want an all out drag car, screw the 5.0's, stick with GM and buy an 86 or 87 Grand National. You can make these cars FAST, for less than it would cost to build a 5.0 or Camaro. I'm running low 11's with a stock block, stock Trans and gears! My buddy threw on stage II heads and a few cheaper mods and he's in the 10's! I love my camaro, but I'd take my GN over any car at the track.
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Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 1,901
From: Houston, Tx USA
Originally posted by WraysCamaro
rofl @ going for 5.0 instead of keeping ur ls1, are u crazy!! there is so many parts u can get for ur ls1 camaro to have u in the 9's simply.. takes money though. it probably the way u drive it at the track that makes ur car slow, try differ styles, of doing the quater mile, like
1.Powershifting (keeping ur foot on the gas while shifting)*don't shift at any higher at 4000 there.. could screw up the motor
how is shifting at 4000 or less good?
2.No Granny shifting, make sure ur atleast shifting at 5,500, take advantage of all ur hp.this directly contridicts the previous "kernal" of advice
3.take off that damn traction control shiz Finally! Something that makes sense.
4.skip shift http://www.ls1.com/link_cags.htmlHere we go again! How is skip shift hurting his 1/4 mile? Do you think he is shifting from 1st to 4th out of the hole? At 2K RPM?
5.free mods http://www.ls1.com/index_ls1_mods.htmlNo proof that they are really worth it.. waste of time IMO.
6.take weight offAnother bright idea...
try a race with skip shift off, and with powershifting.. i'm sure u well do 12.8 - 13.6, aslong as u don't screw up
rofl @ going for 5.0 instead of keeping ur ls1, are u crazy!! there is so many parts u can get for ur ls1 camaro to have u in the 9's simply.. takes money though. it probably the way u drive it at the track that makes ur car slow, try differ styles, of doing the quater mile, like
1.Powershifting (keeping ur foot on the gas while shifting)*don't shift at any higher at 4000 there.. could screw up the motor
how is shifting at 4000 or less good?
2.No Granny shifting, make sure ur atleast shifting at 5,500, take advantage of all ur hp.this directly contridicts the previous "kernal" of advice
3.take off that damn traction control shiz Finally! Something that makes sense.
4.skip shift http://www.ls1.com/link_cags.htmlHere we go again! How is skip shift hurting his 1/4 mile? Do you think he is shifting from 1st to 4th out of the hole? At 2K RPM?
5.free mods http://www.ls1.com/index_ls1_mods.htmlNo proof that they are really worth it.. waste of time IMO.
6.take weight offAnother bright idea...
try a race with skip shift off, and with powershifting.. i'm sure u well do 12.8 - 13.6, aslong as u don't screw up
Wake up... Keep your LS1.. Enjoy...
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