Turbo LT1?
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Joined: Jan 1999
Posts: 884
From: I reached back like a pimp and smacked that LS1....
Originally posted by The Highlander
What Im trying to say is that its the same thing... but I bet you one thing... and one thing only... If I find you on the street.. with street tires (you and I) and on pump gas both of us... I bet I can beat you easily... why? because at that level of power.. instant boost is a BAAD Thing
and that happenned to me against a 340rwhp z06... I got too greddy and got my A$$ handed to me...
Again.. personal preference
What Im trying to say is that its the same thing... but I bet you one thing... and one thing only... If I find you on the street.. with street tires (you and I) and on pump gas both of us... I bet I can beat you easily... why? because at that level of power.. instant boost is a BAAD Thing
and that happenned to me against a 340rwhp z06... I got too greddy and got my A$$ handed to me...Again.. personal preference
I'm going to have to put my $$$ on the turbo car.
I've had both, and the turbo setup is unbelievebly more tractable, even with 150 more rwhp and 300more rwtq.
Electronic boost controllers are your friend
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Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,082
From: San Juan PR
Originally posted by INTMD8
I'm going to have to put my $$$ on the turbo car.
I've had both, and the turbo setup is unbelievebly more tractable, even with 150 more rwhp and 300more rwtq.
Electronic boost controllers are your friend
I'm going to have to put my $$$ on the turbo car.
I've had both, and the turbo setup is unbelievebly more tractable, even with 150 more rwhp and 300more rwtq.
Electronic boost controllers are your friend
In the end is preference.
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Joined: Jan 1999
Posts: 884
From: I reached back like a pimp and smacked that LS1....
Any turbo car with an electronic boost controller would be the same way.
You set boost level, and rate. If it spins you lower the rate. (changing your boost curve).
It's been much easier for me to get traction on the street by adjusting my boost controller rather than modulating the gas pedal as I had to with the blower.
(And yes, the blower was Very predictable. I knew when I stepped on the gas it would break traction)
You set boost level, and rate. If it spins you lower the rate. (changing your boost curve).
It's been much easier for me to get traction on the street by adjusting my boost controller rather than modulating the gas pedal as I had to with the blower.
(And yes, the blower was Very predictable. I knew when I stepped on the gas it would break traction)
Registered User
Joined: Jan 1999
Posts: 839
From: Minnesota
Originally posted by The Highlander
Strap in a Twinscrew supercharger and you will get more or less the same feeling
How about nitrous...
I dont make near 900rwhp... in my wet dreams.. but see.... you MUST use an $8 a gallong fuel while I use one at $1.20 which means that to support 900rwhp and making 18mpg to equate the $ spent like me making a lot less mpg.
Its the same thing with the turbo though.. you put the boost down, but so can happen... making 9s in a supercharged or Turbocharged car will require race gas, unless you have a 9L engine.
What Im trying to say is that its the same thing... but I bet you one thing... and one thing only... If I find you on the street.. with street tires (you and I) and on pump gas both of us... I bet I can beat you easily... why? because at that level of power.. instant boost is a BAAD Thing and that happenned to me against a 340rwhp z06... I got too greddy and got my A$$ handed to me...
Again.. personal preference
Strap in a Twinscrew supercharger and you will get more or less the same feeling
How about nitrous...
I dont make near 900rwhp... in my wet dreams.. but see.... you MUST use an $8 a gallong fuel while I use one at $1.20 which means that to support 900rwhp and making 18mpg to equate the $ spent like me making a lot less mpg.
Its the same thing with the turbo though.. you put the boost down, but so can happen... making 9s in a supercharged or Turbocharged car will require race gas, unless you have a 9L engine.
What Im trying to say is that its the same thing... but I bet you one thing... and one thing only... If I find you on the street.. with street tires (you and I) and on pump gas both of us... I bet I can beat you easily... why? because at that level of power.. instant boost is a BAAD Thing
and that happenned to me against a 340rwhp z06... I got too greddy and got my A$$ handed to me...Again.. personal preference
First let me say thanks! Ahhh both of us racing on street tires, thats all I have and all I race on. I guess in order to appreciate a 6 speed turbo car coming out of the hole you have to see it
Invest your money wisely
I have 2 fuel cells. Running around on race gas for a daily driver would definatly get expensive
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Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,082
From: San Juan PR
How many times do you see track days?? I certeninly dont see that many.. so...
Anyways...
changing a pulley its a 10min job... You still have to change your tires for track and street use.. you still have to change the tunning even if you have a boost controller... You still have to change a few things like fuels and such, ICE.. bla bla bla.. why not add a 10minute pulley change? same belt same everything?
Anyways...
changing a pulley its a 10min job... You still have to change your tires for track and street use.. you still have to change the tunning even if you have a boost controller... You still have to change a few things like fuels and such, ICE.. bla bla bla.. why not add a 10minute pulley change? same belt same everything?
Registered User
Joined: Jan 1999
Posts: 839
From: Minnesota
Originally posted by The Highlander
a s/c is not an unwise investment...
a s/c is not an unwise investment...
As for tuning a turbo car, I dont see why everyone thinks its so difficult to tune
When you change boost levels the tune doesnt change. The car is tuned for those regions of the map. Going from 10psi to 20psi the map with in my tune is still the same. Tuning a turbo car is no different then tuning a s/c car
Last edited by sleeperz28; Feb 17, 2004 at 11:25 AM.
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Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,082
From: San Juan PR
Well... It takes a lot more to nail it down .. at least in the tec 2 I have used before.. its not that simple really... I wish it was...
Using the stock PCM is a lot harder which is why you need an aftermarket system...
The problem comes when you are not at WOT but somehow seeing boost.. the transitions from seeng boost non WOT and WOT,etc... most aftermarkets, if not all, do not use a MAF and it makes it a bit more challenging.. once you have done several it starts to get easier.. I pseudo did one and it took a while... a bigger while than my supercharged one...
A lot more variables in it.. wastegates.. etc etc etc.. many things to add in the equation..
Using the stock PCM is a lot harder which is why you need an aftermarket system...
The problem comes when you are not at WOT but somehow seeing boost.. the transitions from seeng boost non WOT and WOT,etc... most aftermarkets, if not all, do not use a MAF and it makes it a bit more challenging.. once you have done several it starts to get easier.. I pseudo did one and it took a while... a bigger while than my supercharged one...
A lot more variables in it.. wastegates.. etc etc etc.. many things to add in the equation..
Registered User
Joined: Jan 1999
Posts: 839
From: Minnesota
I've never tried to tune a factory computer, but I would imagin its probably more difficult than something such as a FAST...When it comes to tuning a fast system, turbo, supercharger, n/a. Its all the same to me. Im just speaking from personal experience. I dont feel anyone is more difficult than the other
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Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 2,154
From: All around
The difference is there... but the issues are a little different -
In all honesty the two have the same issues if you look at it that way, but turbos are more complicated because they need load to spool, which varies with gears, which is another issue... where centrifugal s/c are rpm based alone. I dont see how wastegates and boost controllers are so hard to tune with? All the two do is control the amount of air going past the impeller and limit maximum boost... Once that is set it is totally independant of tuning, as it simply limits your maximum MAP values. If your MAP values increase, you're in a different area of the table. Only difference would be if you ran Race gas and retuned to get the most out of it. Changing the boost levels on pump gas once fully tuned does not need more tuning unless you're pushing the envelope so far that a change in weather warrants adjustment.
But there is one thought I used while tuning DSMs that holds true on any F/I engine, espicially ours-
If you've got an LT1 and you're pulling any rpm from 4000 and up... you either are flooring it - or you should be
Unless you're doing road race/scca - in which point I have nothing but sympathy for you
I'll openly admit both can be just as powerful, and the S/C being cheaper and easier to tune would mean more $$ could be spent to make up for the slightly decreased lower rpm output (if you have the traction) but in all honesty, they both have their advantages and disadvantages. I think Hot Rod did the article not long ago about Turbo vs Cent. s/c and then Roots s/c... and the article was very well done...
I say if you're putting out more then 500rwhp - you rock either way... And why are we fighting between ourselves with a pissing contest when there are plenty of imports out there that need to be tought a lesson?
In all honesty the two have the same issues if you look at it that way, but turbos are more complicated because they need load to spool, which varies with gears, which is another issue... where centrifugal s/c are rpm based alone. I dont see how wastegates and boost controllers are so hard to tune with? All the two do is control the amount of air going past the impeller and limit maximum boost... Once that is set it is totally independant of tuning, as it simply limits your maximum MAP values. If your MAP values increase, you're in a different area of the table. Only difference would be if you ran Race gas and retuned to get the most out of it. Changing the boost levels on pump gas once fully tuned does not need more tuning unless you're pushing the envelope so far that a change in weather warrants adjustment.
But there is one thought I used while tuning DSMs that holds true on any F/I engine, espicially ours-
If you've got an LT1 and you're pulling any rpm from 4000 and up... you either are flooring it - or you should be
Unless you're doing road race/scca - in which point I have nothing but sympathy for you
I'll openly admit both can be just as powerful, and the S/C being cheaper and easier to tune would mean more $$ could be spent to make up for the slightly decreased lower rpm output (if you have the traction) but in all honesty, they both have their advantages and disadvantages. I think Hot Rod did the article not long ago about Turbo vs Cent. s/c and then Roots s/c... and the article was very well done...
I say if you're putting out more then 500rwhp - you rock either way... And why are we fighting between ourselves with a pissing contest when there are plenty of imports out there that need to be tought a lesson?
Registered User
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,082
From: San Juan PR
Originally posted by Geoff Chadwick
The difference is there... but the issues are a little different -
In all honesty the two have the same issues if you look at it that way, but turbos are more complicated because they need load to spool, which varies with gears, which is another issue... where centrifugal s/c are rpm based alone. I dont see how wastegates and boost controllers are so hard to tune with? All the two do is control the amount of air going past the impeller and limit maximum boost... Once that is set it is totally independant of tuning, as it simply limits your maximum MAP values. If your MAP values increase, you're in a different area of the table. Only difference would be if you ran Race gas and retuned to get the most out of it. Changing the boost levels on pump gas once fully tuned does not need more tuning unless you're pushing the envelope so far that a change in weather warrants adjustment.
But there is one thought I used while tuning DSMs that holds true on any F/I engine, espicially ours-
If you've got an LT1 and you're pulling any rpm from 4000 and up... you either are flooring it - or you should be
Unless you're doing road race/scca - in which point I have nothing but sympathy for you
I'll openly admit both can be just as powerful, and the S/C being cheaper and easier to tune would mean more $$ could be spent to make up for the slightly decreased lower rpm output (if you have the traction) but in all honesty, they both have their advantages and disadvantages. I think Hot Rod did the article not long ago about Turbo vs Cent. s/c and then Roots s/c... and the article was very well done...
I say if you're putting out more then 500rwhp - you rock either way... And why are we fighting between ourselves with a pissing contest when there are plenty of imports out there that need to be tought a lesson?
The difference is there... but the issues are a little different -
In all honesty the two have the same issues if you look at it that way, but turbos are more complicated because they need load to spool, which varies with gears, which is another issue... where centrifugal s/c are rpm based alone. I dont see how wastegates and boost controllers are so hard to tune with? All the two do is control the amount of air going past the impeller and limit maximum boost... Once that is set it is totally independant of tuning, as it simply limits your maximum MAP values. If your MAP values increase, you're in a different area of the table. Only difference would be if you ran Race gas and retuned to get the most out of it. Changing the boost levels on pump gas once fully tuned does not need more tuning unless you're pushing the envelope so far that a change in weather warrants adjustment.
But there is one thought I used while tuning DSMs that holds true on any F/I engine, espicially ours-
If you've got an LT1 and you're pulling any rpm from 4000 and up... you either are flooring it - or you should be
Unless you're doing road race/scca - in which point I have nothing but sympathy for you
I'll openly admit both can be just as powerful, and the S/C being cheaper and easier to tune would mean more $$ could be spent to make up for the slightly decreased lower rpm output (if you have the traction) but in all honesty, they both have their advantages and disadvantages. I think Hot Rod did the article not long ago about Turbo vs Cent. s/c and then Roots s/c... and the article was very well done...
I say if you're putting out more then 500rwhp - you rock either way... And why are we fighting between ourselves with a pissing contest when there are plenty of imports out there that need to be tought a lesson?
Aggie:
I changed my pullies in a total time of 12mins including fighting with the rams so they dont slip when trying to bring the car up...
Loose S/C pulley (14mm IIRC)... I use a 14mm wrench and a 15mm for torque... and.. belt loose... and pulley out... reverse procedure.. Total time of changing the actual pulley.. 5 mins or so... Not difficult really.. SIMPLE SIMPLE SIMPLE.. you do not have to remove ANYHTING ELSE! at least with my S-trim
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