yeah, everyone wants it cheap. But do you have any idea how expensive it is to design and put the parts together for such kits? These guys aren't pulling 50% margins.

An "ultimate" kit, for me, means that it is tops in quality and performance. That means it will be prohibitively expensive for most people..this is kinda the same reason why we don't all live in mansions and drive Ferraris. If you want cheap, go to the junk yard and pull an old turbo and intercooler and get to work. It might be the case that you can't afford to do this until you're older and making more money.

Also, in my opinion, forced induction should be done right...the budget should be large and loose to allow for quality and unforseen problems.

 

Chris,
Very correct
Lots of forseen things but it is all fun in the end. I have loved my buildup of my twins, it has taken a while but it is wicked to say yea i did it and it makes XXXX in the end

 

Chris,
Very correct
Lots of forseen things but it is all fun in the end. I have loved my buildup of my twins, it has taken a while but it is wicked to say yea i did it and it makes XXXX in the end

 

Steve,

Please check your PM

Your e-mail has been bouncing back for some reason.

 

this is a greaaaaaaaaaattttttttttttt ideaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!!!!!! i've been waitin for a good turbo kit to come out for f-bodies. It would b so sweet if i could throw a turbo on my v6...that would just make my day...my every day!!! to whoever is endeavoring to design this kit, good luck.....also this would help out alot of us v6'ers who can't afford the insurance of the v8 or a regular turboed car, then we could compete and make a better name for the v6 f-body camaros!!!!!!! camaro power baby!!!!

 

Jim
Its clear

 

Thanks!

You have a PM

 

so when are the kits coming out?

 

The kit is in the process of being installed now. We are hoping to have it all tuned and ready by the end of April.. Check it out with some pics at www.Turbolocity.com

 

And this in a nutshell is the reason why there are few good turbo kits out for these cars and why the companies don’t seem to be around for long.

You can’t buy a new, single, appropriately sized turbo for that price, and you expect someone to build you a kit with the turbo for that? If you want to know why they exist for Hondas and mustangs, let me tell you flat out, I’ve been offered more to let me use someone’s Honda to prototype just the plumbing, and between half the cylinders, roughly half the plumbing, and much easier packaging, I’d be making roughly 3x as much for my time cutting and welding.

If you want to know what it would take to make this worth while for a someone to make money on, pick up a copy of import tuner or turbo, look at the price of a turbo kit there, multiply the price by 2 to 2.5x, and then add the difference between the hybrid turbo that they’re running (probably about $700) and the T70-T90 or so that would be appropriate for a small block (about $2000-3000), and you’ll have a price that will keep someone in business and allow them to have the resources for good tech support, marketing…

Second, there are a lot of misconceptions here that force potential manufacturer’s into building things that are unnecessary/more expensive just so their kits are not looked at as a joke. For example, in this thread the whole log manifold vs header style has come up. There is only one deciding factor there as far as performance goes, which one can be built/packaged with the smaller internal volume without having a ‘choke point’ in it somewhere, that’s it. There is no chance of any scavenging or other effects that headers are designed to achieve. To get scavenging you need very low pressure, high flow velocity and less backpressure after the collector then before it. A turbo system will have more back pressure in the manifold then it will see boost pressure on the intake side. Typically 2x as much. If you’re seeing 15psi boost, you’ve probably got over 30psi backpressure PLUS whatever you’ve got after the turbo, quite often 4-6psi if you’re not dumping the down pipe right away, so you likely have over 35psi backpressure. At 35 PSI a header will not flow any differently then a log. And you will NEVER see less pressure after the collector, that’s where the turbo’s turbine is mounted, which by design has to restrict the exhaust to harness it’s energy.

 

I did not find any pictures on their website of the f-body kit.

 

On the topic of the log versus tuned header I'd argue that pressure pulses are still present even with higher pressures in a turbo cars exhaust. Due to this individual cylinder schavenging is still possible but to a lesser degree than with a non-turbo setup... Cross cylinder scavenging still works also. A well engineered turbo header will not have that high of a exahust to manifold pressure ratio... in fact its very possible for the exhaust pressure to be lower than intake pressure... after all, the majority of the energy to drive the impeller is from heat, not exhaust pressure.

One of the tricks to building an effective turbo header / manifold is organizing the cylinder pulses with individual tube length from each cylinder so that the collector/turbo only has to handle one cylinder pulse at a time. This allows pressure in the header to come down... with it response improves and power to goes up. Both are concerns for me in a higher end setup although I'd not be too worried about it with a 4-8 psi kit.

Another point is materials selection. Stainless in my book is a must due to its heat transfer qualities both for the sake of performance and for the engine compartment. I'd also make arguements for its looks and durability. The only drawback is the cost but if its a tube header, mild steel can be assembled in the same jig for the customer who does not want to pay for stainless. Thick flanges (3/8-1/2")are also a must.

 

Pulse tuning is a valid issue, but for the most part on a gas engine we’re harnessing heat energy, not the energy of the pulses. If you’re tuning for that there’s only 2 ways of accomplishing it successfully, you’d either have to run 2 header primaries under the engine to cross over to the other side and then make the rest of the primaries that length, or you’d have to run a 180* crank (to get rid of the exhaust pulses that are 90* apart on each side). Both much more difficult, if not approaching unmanageable solutions for most.

I suppose that you could mess with primary lengths and try to get them so all the pulses get to the collectors evenly spaced, but that would only work for a very small rpm on a twin turbo setup. You’d have to go through that whole process over again to tune the crossover length. In the long run I don’t think that with the 4 pulses/revolution of a v8 you’ll get a measurable better spooling by getting the pulses even then you will without. Either way, equal length
“headers” will not get them significantly more even then a “log” and will only gain you extra volume to fill between the exhaust port and turbo and more surface area to cool on, both of which will hurt spooling.

WRT pressure and even scavenging, I’ve never seen any evidence that anyone has ever built a turbo setup on a gas engine that shows less pressure at the exhaust port then intake port under boost. I’m not even sure that I’ve seen any data for anyone who’s gotten below 1.5x the intake pressure. For scavenging to happen at all you’d have to show a negative relative pressure at the exhaust ports. Until anyone produces any real data that you can get even a 1:1 ratio under boost on a turbocharged setup, the argument of if you can get scavenging is moot.

 

Yeah, I'm thinking of a twin setup when I make this case. It should be possible with a single but lots more difficult to actually package. The type of tuning we are talking here is not RPM dependant. This is not the same thing as the helmhertz effect that is RPM dependant. This is tuning individual primary tube lengths to allow one pulse through the collector at a time. As long as all the pulses travel at the same rate as their companions. RPM is not a factor. Yes the length of the primary tube is a negative due to heat loss but the gains in this case are far superior to the losses. Even so, some of the heat losses can be recouped with better material selection (stainless) or coatings.
John Meanys corvette featured in popular hot rodding is an example that does this with a long tube design while the example I've used below makes use of this effect with a manifold design.

I'll quote for you an example from a magazine article on the old thirdgen twin turbo kit from banks. This should suffice for real evidence.
"The key to this power output is that exhaust backpressure within the turbo system is kept very low. Most turbo systems end up with more exhaust back pressure between the cylinder head and the turbocharger turbing than boost pressure in the induction system, thus preventing the exhaust gases from efficiently leaving the comustion chamber. In fact, many single turbo systems have exhaust pressure that is over twice as high as the boost pressure. Banks' system is designed to always provide more boost pressure than exhaust backpressure, and it is this positive differential between boost pressure and exhaust pressure that really produces power."

Now I'll also say that turbine selection is a very important part of this equation. Its not going to matter how well designed your header is if your turbine is too small.

 

Ira, please reread what I wrote, and then consider the firing order of and SBC/LT1… I was talking about a dual setup, to have the pulses reach the collectors evenly, you’d have to crossover 2 tubes from one side to the other and then make the other 3 on that side the same length.

FWIW, I’ve seen that before and never believed bank’s advertising spiel, mostly because they never publish any #’s. If they’re comparing their #’s to OEM setups, yes, they will see lower pressures, because every OEM setup that I’ve ever seen has had what would be considered an undersized turbo from a performance standpoint. To be honest, I don’t believe that they’re seeing less pressure between the port and turbine even most of the time under boost. Second, I’d point out that as far as I know, banks has always used log/manifold designs.

Hey Andris, you reading this? Have you ever tried measuring the pressure on your setup before the turbo?