just as title says, If I were to prepare the engine to run alcohol instead of fuel occasionally.. what else would be needed besides alcohol compatible regulator, pump, injectors. are braided stainless steel over rubber lines alright.. just was lying around watching TV and figured I would look into it. any info appreciated!

Chris

 

You will need a highpower ignition system if you gona run high boost on alcohol.

 

The big issue is that you need ~2.3 times as much alcohol (by volume) as gasoline. You don't say anything about the car you are thinking about doing this with, so it's hard to be too specific. But that's usually a huge increase in the capacity of the fuel system components. There aren't too many people running EFI and alcohol. I do it in my race car and I can't say I have ever seen anyone else doing it, though there must, of course, be others out there who do. BTW: when the car is cold, you have to squirt some gas into the throttle body to start it. The alcohol doesn't vaporize nearly as well as gas. We have a Hillborn mechanical pump on the race car.

You already mentioned compatibility and ignition was mentioned. Most blown race cars running alcohol use a magneto (BIG spark). We use a multiple coil Electromotive system running at 16V on my NA setup. Accoring to Electromotive, it has enough juice for a blown setup as well. I wonder if a stock type igntion could light off methanol under boost? Maybe it's obvious, but a completely different tune is needed. Besides accounting for the needed fuel volume, alcohol burns much slower than gas. So, more timing is needed.

When I think about it, water/alcohol injection is also a form of running alcohol. But that's adding it and not using it as a primary fuel.

Rich

 

Rich,

I am not even sure I could do it at this point, just a whim I went on to see what it would take in case I wanted to vamp up to be able to try it... specs are below on the car.

3558.8 SCR forged motor
Trickflow heads
T74gts custom turbo setup for C4 vette

Fuel system is as follows:
-10 feed from sumped tank to A1000
all correct filters Aeromotive (elements would need to be changed I know)
-10 feed to custom rails
A1000 bypass regulator
-8 return to tank
83 lb/hr injectors

Engine management is DFI Gen 7
w/ Dual Synch Dizzy for full sequential EFI
MSD coil
MSD 6A CDI Boc
MSD 8.5 wires
TR7XI Iridium Plugs

I think i have a decent start towards being able to use straight alky, 160lb/hr injectors would be wise I think, not sure about the fuel pump being compatible (or big enough), but I know the regulator and filters(with correct elements) are. are siemens injectors alcohol tolerant?

Chris

 

Chris: the pump is way too small. It is rated at 600lb/h @ 13.5v and 45psi. That would be good for maybe 400hp at best on alcohol in a forced induction application.

Rich

 

Chris,

Sorry to change the subject, but do you have the part number and any pics of your dual sync installed? I'd like to see it.

Thanks,

Sean

 

I am assuming you are referring to 100% methanol when you say you are interested in alcohol as E85 could be a viable alternative.

For methanol I would highly recommend a belt driven fuel pump for the volume required. An inline flowthough pump is not going to be electrically compatible with methanol, including the Edelbrock which is advertised to the contrary, nor will an inline pump have the necessary volume for a methanol application. A Pro-Series Aeromotive might get the job done for a milder application with 2.5+ gpm, but it sounds like a cement mixer. So you'll need a meth compatible T-style Weldon, Accel or Magnafuel pump to move enough fuel or the above mentioned belt driven pump. -Waterman, Aeromotive and others.

You'll want an aftermarket ecu with low-impedence injector drivers.

Surprisingly LS1 truck coils can fire enormous cylinder pressure with only active dwell control from an ecu. No CD required. You could possible use a BS3 on your car with an LSx ignition system replacing the Opti. Mark Micke of Outlaw 10.5 racing uses a KAM systems ECU and LS1 truck coils to make over 2500 methanol fueled, F3 Procharged horsepower.

 

Mark,

good information!

I currently run the Accel Gen 7 DFI with wideband module and knock module, 83 lb/hr injectors... it looks like the fuel system is just not up to snuff. On the E85, I have been waiting patiently for NC to get a filling station for this fuel as I have heard it is capable of producing fantastic numbers and is very detonation tolerant much like methanol.. I also read it is also a volume monster and will need upgraded fuel supply to feed a hungry engine.. but have not gotten many specifics on it.. have you any experience with it? I do not run the optispark anymore it is 100% completely gone from the engine with the GM carb verion TC cover in place. I run the DFI Dual Sync Distributor with internal Cam and Crank sensor.. I was wondering if this distributor could effectively run the LSx style ignition to be used with the higher output truck coils, the ignition is holding fine for now but I am planning on really pushing the boost envelope down the road and am trying to put plans in place for upgrading individual areas I feel with be needing attention.. does anyone on here have some information on the ignition input/output of the LSx platform crank/cam sensors.. if they are the same I would imagine the DFI could be used to run them. I have not heard of a CPC setup used with the DFI with exception of the stock Buick GN ignition being com0patible, but I don't know if that is the DFI Gen 7 box working in conjuntion with the GN ECM or if it is stand alone completely...

thanks again!

Chris

Chris

 

What I have read suggest a potential for ~5% hp gain with E85 vs. up to ~10% with M100 compared to gasoline. Ethanol is less reactive however. Ethanol also smells better. Methanol fumes are quite unpleasant. My eyes start to water and I get a headache pretty quickly on a still day if I am sitting in the race car with the enigne running.

Rich

 

Chris, since you're running a dual sync I'd probably just get an MSD 7AL3 box and compatible long running duration HVC coil. Let the efi ecu control the timing. My anecdote was to show that the inductive LS1 coils can be very effective with the right ECU controlling their dwell.

E85 is not as volume hungry as methanol, nor is it as corrosive or conductive. You've already mentioned the distribution stumbling block and hopefully that will get much better in the near future. Most fuel systems components are already compatible with ethanol. I know for a fact that the Aeromotive line is E85 friendly and I hope to compile a list of approved fuel system components in the near future for a project.

What Rich says about methanol fumes is not trivial. If you leave methanol in an aluminum fuel cell for a week the smell will knock your socks off. When it evaporates it will leave a white chalky residue that can collect in fuel system components such as the pump and injectors. For this reason you really need to flush the system with gasoline after running it to prolong life.

The advantage to methanol use is that the evaporation temperature reduction is better than ethanol. I believe only water is better but we can't burn that yet!

The LS1 uses a timing trigger wheel for the crank and a 50% duty cycle cam sensor trigger.