Well I am in need of a torque converter for my GTP LT4/Bret Bauer Cam combo. For referance it should be running 410-435rwhp. I have been doing a much homework as I can on torque converters and what various companies use in their converters. The 3 I am looking at are Edge's Street Edge $~550, PI's Vigilante ~$750, and Fuddle's High Performance/Street Series ~$550.

I hear claims from companies about nearly every component, method, and whatever else. I want to know what makes a converter good and what makes a converter great. I'm going to break this down into a few area's.

Parts: What do these do and why is one better than another? Alot of these I got from Fuddle's site, which unlike many others has complete lists of internal components and what purpose they surve for each converter type. It has been a great learning tool for me and shows that they arent afraid to tell you exactly what is going into their converters. I personally like that about a company. http://www.fuddleracing.com/OurConverters.html

Here is Edge and Vigilante's Pages for referance:
http://www.edgeracingconverters.com/streetedge.htm
http://www.converter.com/vigilante.htm

Billet front cover - Vig and Fuddle have one but Edge doesnt [Maybe that saves on weight?]
Anti-balloning plate - I believe they all have one of these, but is one plate the same as another?
Fin Brazing Furnace vs Internal [Only Fuddle speaks of hand brazing fins internally vs Furnace as being better...why?]
Clutch size and area - Again Fuddle speaks of a very large clutch size and 43si area, about twice of stock. The Vigilante says they have the clutch area of up to 5 times stock because of a billet front over but I saw their's was actually 37si on Dana's Pro Built site]
Strator - ? Fuddle is the only one to go somewhat in depth on this topic.
Torrington Bearings ? PI and Fuddle mention these but Edge does not.

Methods: Well according to PI they are the one of only two companies who can actually find STR. Fuddle supposedly to use GM specs, and Edge "True Stall Math". Differences between these? Who's right, who's wrong?

Weight: Edge supposedly weighs 26lbs a full 2 pounds less than Vigilante and 17 less than a stock unit. Edge claims MPH increase in trap speeds with their TC. Is this possibly due to the weight difference or is it something else? What do Fuddle's weigh?

TC efficiency: What exactly is this and how can you figure this out? Anyone know who's is the best? Edge is supposedly 20% more efficient than others, but anyone can just say that.

Price: The almighty dollar figures into nearly every modification decision. Everyone wants the most from a little. I prefer what I need for whatever is costs.

Now I realize I have to take a company's marketing strategy into consideration when looking at these claims and numbers. But I'd like someone to get in here and explain what makes one stand above another. I am trying to stick to facts and parts rather than opinions on what you have and why its better. Dana and/or Frank feel free to take a swing. John from Fuddle, heres your chance to take center stage and explain why yours are "The Best for Less"

-Dustin-

 

The vigilante is a great converter. It's second only to http://www.protorque.com/index2.htm.
The prices listed on their site are only a referance. We give a nice discount to our customers when they also get a transmission rebuild.

Frank
CPT

 

I'd like to hear some opinions on Yank also. I forgot the guy's screen name, but someone from this board ran some pretty impressive times (for his mods) in an LT1 SS with a Yank SS3600.

 

Thanks Frank. Are there specific reasons you site Vigilante as the best? Why would you rate it higher than Fuddle and/or Edge?

I want to remind everyone to not let this turn into an opinion based "who's got the best converter" thread. This thread is meant to further understand what combination of parts, methods, weights, etc that seperate a good converter from a great converter. I am hoping for more of a technical perspective rather than an opinion strewn "this guy runs 9's with a X Brand and its the best". I see far too many people saying I run this time with this converter so its the best. Or comparing a Vigilante with a TCI or what not. I want to know what each uses in their converter and why. It would make spending ~$750 on a Vigilante worth it if I knew 5 specific reasons it's so much better. It seems to me that most people just go by alot of hear-say when getting a converter and I'd rather know the facts.

You know what your getting into when you buy $800 Stainless steel Kooks vs $400 Edelbrocks. You understand why one costs more, that one performs better for what reasons, the materials used and therefore many choose Kooks even though they are more expensive. Someone who didnt know that Kooks are SS, longtubes and have larger stepped primaries would hear "My buddy runs 10's with Edelbrocks and their cheaper" They would just buy that not know what they were getting, why its "better" and the reason it "outperforms".

For example if John from Fuddle got on here and said "We use Billet front covers to allow us to increase the clutch area from ____ in our $400 series converter to 43si in out HP/Street. Vigilante does the same but only manages 37si. Due to the fact that Edge doesnt use a billet front cover they can offer a lighter converter but sacrifice clutch area to do so. A lighter converter without a Billet cover may descrease rotating weight. Although it is ideal to gain a few pounds per the Billet cover for the increased clutch area since that allows for a stronger, longer lasting and harder hitting converter". This is merely an example of understanding I am trying to gain from this thread. Hopefully that can guide future posters as to what I am looking for here.

I limited the thread to these three converters to help control the spectrum of answers and keep conclusions focused. They are all 9.5" Converters I believe, no dual size, no $400 specials. They have similar prices and great reputations. Each has its advantages and disadvantages plus adds price to the overall equation.

I think once a base understanding of what goes into converters is established people can start making smart, efficient and informed investments in converters. Hopefully the information learned here can branch out into other converter brands and help me and other F-body owners get the most out of their torque converters. So lets keep it limited to these three for now, then when we have information verified we can doing the "Whats in a Yank, how about Midwest, etc"

Thanks

-Dustin-

 

I'm hoping for some responses to this too. Right now all the info I can find is either very subjective or not very specific. I've emailed both Yank and Edge in the past and both seem to shy away from commenting on the specifics of other brand converters(which is nice but makes it harder to decide).

Let me try to fill in a bit of info so far:
Price - Fuddle seems to have a distinct price advantage
Efficiency - The only scientific way to figure this out would be to dyno two converters on the same car and compare. They would have to be unlocked as well to maximize the results im assuming. (I'm sure machines exist that can test this directly too.. but I really have no clue )

This isn't a cheap test to do unfortunatly so it might not be easy to get much info on this. We'd really need some input from the experts

 

I ended up with a Vigilante and I love it. Drives well and I didnt seem to lose any power to the wheels. I raced my buddies LS1 from a roll many times with the stock converter and a few times with the new Vigilante and I pulled about the same each time, maybe even a bit more with the Vig. I have no experience with other brands but I have seen great results with Edge in a few of my friends cars. Nothing with Fuddle since I dont know anyone with one.

I'd put them in this order: Vigilante/Edge/Fuddle

-Dustin-

 

I bought an Edge 9.5" with a stall speed of 2800 and a lockup feature for top gear. It actually comes up to a bit over 3,000 because of the torque I'm producing. It's also quite drivable, even at part throttle and that's pretty important to me.

That's really all I can tell you, but maybe the info will be helpful.

 

I've dealt w/ only yank as far as race converter's.. They're cust. service is a bit lacking, but if you look at the fastest car's around.. They're running a yank.. and i have never had a issue that wasn't caused by the moron working on the car, w/ a yank.. So.. But, I have only recently dealt w/ Pro Torque for my father's van in which frank has rebuilt the tranny, so i'm gonna go w/ my man frank's word on the quality of they're stuff.. and say either yank,pro torque, vig are all good choice's do your research, and find what you need to know and who's running them and what 60ft/et's are they running.. Personally i've gone bottom 1.5's n/a on yank verter's... Tried a TCS it would only nail a 1.58 on the bottle.. factor in your motor,weight,gear, etc and that all comes' into play w/ choosing the right converter.. no such one for all fix...

EDIT: Only now did i actually read the thread.. So mind you my opinion is based on what has worked for me and the car's i deal w/ both of which have had other converter's one being a TCS4200 that would only allow a 1.63 60ft and a 12.3@108mph.. That being said same car, diff day same da car went a 12.03@112mph w/ a 1.61 60ftw/ just swapping to a yank 3600... Better air(500ft) it went 11.80@114.5.. changed to a pt style yank and a week later it went a 11.91 in comparable air to the original run's w/ a 1.53 60ft... Both day's were 2500ft fwiw
Swapped it for another yank pt style and it wen

 

Unfortunately, i don't think anyone really knows for a fact what is better than what. It doesn't help when people rate converters they know nothing about either. It sucks, cause i'm trying to figure it out too. I think you're just gonna have to take the plunge with one of them and go from there.

Personally, i think i'm gonna get a Fuddle. Others on this board use them with no problems and for the price it can't be beat.

 

yank

 

I had a Yank ST3600 in my 98 Vette and loved it. I cut 1.8 60' times on the 18" street tires. I will be going back to Yank for a converter in the LT1.

 

yeai was trying to determine what was best to go with for parts, stators etc, unfortunately there are companies that do stuff like say furnace brazed is better than welded and then their competitor says welded is better than furnace brazed etc etc. for my motor i just bought the cheapest one i could find that stalled out right and said ta hell with it, cuz apparently nobody knows what the best way to make em is.

in my theory however, if they assemble em a way that works, and they stall out where they need to, then they test it and it doesnt fall apart then it's 50% ok. next move on to see what people think of em and how many use em, to determine the other 50%. then buy accordingly

 

oops sorry, one more thing seperate from my other post, anti ballooning plates are used to absorb the super high toque of a hit of nitrous off the line

more clutch area distributes pressure over a larger area and the friction coefficient is the same assuming the same materials, but with less force on a given cubic inch since it distributes further, this shouldnt ffect performance if the converter is dialed into the right stall, however with a larger surface area, the clutch should last longer, smaller clutch? the coefficient is still the same material to material. but more force over each cubic inch, like standing on one foot instead of two... but more clutch area should mean it'll last longer unforunately that's all i know

 

It's like the diff between going w/ a b&m short throw to a Pro 5.0.. You don't know what the "real" diff is.. You just know it's better and it def feel's better.. and fwiw.. the number's don't lie... beside's when you can get a 3600+lb bolt on car to leave a 1.5 every time out.. why would you go anywhere else?

 

Edge uses a high-carbon lockup clutch which I have hit with 600+ rwtq locked on the dyno and it's never blown through the converter. Just a little FYI.

If cost is not an issue I would go Yank. But for a GREAT budget converter with OUTSTANDING tech support go Edge.