84firebird......That was the first GOOD explanation I have heard as to why the th350 is a better choice. Other than the fact it's lighter (ALWAYS BETTER) it has a better gear ratio throughout the power band.


ABA......As far as the mustang dyno comment, anyone who don't know much about dyno's would have made that mistake. I know the first time I heard "mustang" dyno that's what popped in my head. I know you felt attacked by his post and that's why you "went off" back at him. But, he did make a few good points.


As far as the th350 shifting harder, I doubt one could shift harder than the one Frank (CPT) built me. I have honestly broke 2 transmission mounts on the 1-2 shift. Yes, the were cheap-o's from advance auto but still DAMN it shifts hard!



Revtime.......Frank does build th350/700R4's and th400's. Here is a link to his website........http://www.cahallperformancetransmissions.com/

 

LOL...Yea, I guess I forgot to mention that I build 350's and 400's. 16 years ago, I started out building 350's. I was at a rather large shop, so they were considered the "beginners transmission". I built 110 of them in a row, before I went on to anything else. I've got transbraked 400's in a few 8 second street cars, too.
I actually build everything...Fords, Hondas, Nissans, Chryslers, etc. I've just taken on specializing in 4L60Es, because so many opeople misunderstand them, and give them the unnecassary bad reputation.
A 4L60E to 350 swap is pointless UNLESS you're doing it with a transbraked 350. The 350 isn't any stronger. We do have a TH350 in our '70 Camaro. The car runs 10.8, and has had the same trans in it for 3 seasons.
The TH400 is without a doubt the strongest transmission ever put in a factory vehicle (aside from an Allison). Yes, I've built many for Race/Pro Street applications. They do work great and hold up amazingly well. The TH400 will soak up quite a bit more HP to turn, though.
The only reason I try to steer people away from the 3 speeds is just because they're not necessary for most of them. A properly built 700/4L60E will take you deep in the 10's, and get you 1.5X 60 ft. times.
I'm here to help people, also. When you compare the 2 for a swap, MOST of the time it costs more to do a swap. People see that a TH350 or TH400 cost less to build, but...add in the other parts you've got to buy. If one of our customers already has a converter for their A4, then it's cheaper to send it back and have a "clean out" done. That usually runs around $100. Compare that to starting over with a new $500-up 3 speed converter.
To PROPERLY put a TH350 in an f-body, you'll need a Fitz-All kit that has an aluminum block that bolts between the case and the original 700/4L60E tail housing. This makes it possible to use the factory speedo, mount location, and torque arm. This kit also contains a new output shaft, which relocates the speedo drive gear to accomidate the 700/4L60E tailhousing. This is the CORRECT way to do it. Most just try to jam a regular TH350 in. What about a new dipstick tube? Kickdown cable? Driveshaft (400)? Crossmember
(400)? Yes, these parts are readily available, but many forget to incorporate their costs into the swap. Yes, we did alot of 700-350 swaps back in the early 80's. This was when we didn't completely understand these transmissions yet. Now it's hard to even find anyplace that sells the swap kit...just because putting a 350 in where an A4 came out doesn't make any sense anymore.

I've never bad mouthed the 350 or 400. I've built many of both. If you're building a car from scratch and you ask about a race transmission, I'll always suggest a 400, unless it's going to see alot of highway miles...then I'd suggest a 700 (A4).

Too many people take my posts the wrong way. When the 700/4L60E vs. 350/400 debate comes up, I don't defend the A4 because it's the only transmission I build. I defend them because I don't like seeing other members make a mistake that they'll regret later. Yes, I get quite a few customers who want to reinstall an A4 after they've replaced it with a 3-speed. That's only MORE money wasted.

Thanks,
Frank
CPT

 

I never meant for this thread to turn into a big argument about which tranny is better. I was simply sharing my experience of the swap. Some guys will need the extra gear, I don't. I never wanted to say what I paid, because this site has paying supporting vendors and whatnot, and I will respect that, but...someone did just say that a high stall th350 converter is around $800.00, and I have to say that I paid a lot less than that, and mine is rated for 800+HP.

Frank-My shop used the kit you described. I took a peek and saw the big aluminum spacer between the case and tailshaft. Just to clarify though, I am running stock length driveshaft, stock crossmember, stock torque arm. None of these had to be changed. They had to install a bendable Lokar dipstick tube and since I am running full manual valve body, there was no need to hook up the cable. Also, I have the option, should I go big, to get a transbrake installed. If you want I'll pm you the price I paid in full detail, it's a lot less than what most people think.

 

I don't generally go off on people...I guess he just kinda rubbed me the wrong way...I shouldn't have said what I said, for that I'm sorry...He kinda started in on me about a dyno that he clearly had no knowledge about, but typed as if he had. He did make a few good points about the TH350, but I just wanted to throw my .02 in that a 4L60E, when built by a competent builder can be a blast to have...It used to stink to drive my 72 Chevelle with 4.10s and TH350 anywhere on the hwy and get 8-10 mpg...Now I get 20 mpg, run mid 11s (which will change with the recently added Kooks LTs, EWP, and Bogarts) and cruise 180 miles each way to OC, MD at 2000 rpms...

The bottom line is don't post up in a condesending tone unless you know what you are talking about...If unsure, then you should ask...Thats what this place is here for. If he didn't know what a Mustang dyno was, then he shouldn't have said what he said...Its not always what you say...its how you say it...

We'll just agree to disagree on why a TH350 is a better choice...Sorry 84firebird...didn't mean to be mean...This is spoda be a fun place to play...

--Alan

 

Amen to that. That about sums up the whole situation. If you're not running 10's, and pushing your car hard on the street constantly, theres no reason to go to an A3 if you have a competant 4L60 builder. In the end its NOT cheaper and its not getting any cheaper with the cost of gas. I used to be one of those people that said "if yer worried about the gas then you're in the wrong sport". Well, the more you learn the wiser you get. If you can build something to get better gas mileage AND still run like a raped ape, doesnt it only make sense to do so? Its not rocket science. Ill go fast and save money on gas and be able to drive my 400+ HP car from one state to another without breaking the bank. For some, that may not be an issue, because you dont go on long trips, but is that the reason you dont go on long trips? Wouldnt you rather be able to drive your car like it was a daily driver wherever yo wanted without taking out a loan? Besides, as with the gas saying, why cheap out on the tranny? If you aint got another $1k to spend on a tranny then YOU are in the wrong sport. It all sounds good on paper, but do yourself a favor and drive someone else' 350/400 around for a week or 2 and see how annoying it is without OD and exactly how fast that gas gauge drops, and how fast your wallet becomes empty.

 

I'm not sure who that was directed to, but I DO plan on going tens, and I DO have another grand to drop on a tranny. I would stop misleading people to think that a 4L costs only 1G more. It's at least 1G more when you factor in the converter plus, *hard parts? There isn't even a converter listed on the 4L rebuilders site that stalls at 4000rpm. The highest one I saw was 2800-3200? Kinda vague for a stall listing isn't it. I'd be pretty pissed if i paid 700-800 for a stall that stalls at 2800rpm. And I can hear it now, 4000rpm is too much for the street, well I'll tell you what, mine was custom built for my cars motor, weight, future plans, hp, and it was built "tight". If I just touch the gas, the car moves. When i mash the pedal from a roll, the car launches. How much are converters for 4L's that can do that? More than my tranny/adapter kit/dipstick tube costs, thats how much they are, period.

 

Let me know when your car pulls a 1.46 60 ft. time, like some of our stock internal/nitroused LS1/4L60E cars are. How about 1.51 60ft. times on motor??? Try that with a TH350 and a stock internal LS1.
Do you really want to debate about stall? It takes a good converter to pull those kind of 60's. BTW..ask, before you assume. We offer converters that aren't listed on that particular price list. There are converters available for 4L60E's that stall above 4000 RPM's. $2100 for the best transmission and 4000 stall converter you can buy.

Frank
CPT

 

I was simply going off of the prices YOU listed on YOUR website. If you offer other converters with higher stalls and better prices, WHY HIDE IT? As for me pulling a 1.46 second 60 foot time, what are you talking about? Are you implying that with a th350 it isn't possible? I don't get it. Let me know when you get your car in the 9's with the 4L. Yes, the 4L has a better first gear than a th350. Last time I checked we don't race dyno's or for 60 feet. Like I said before I never intended for this to get into an argument. I was simply sharing my experience with the swap. I am fully aware that for about 90% of the f-bod automatics out there, they would be better off sticking to the 4L. I just wanted to clear up some confusion about what is involved with the swap, how easy it is, and the driveability with a full-race 3 speed. I don't need people telling me what a bad decision I made.

 

sorry, i had heard about these 'mustang dynos' before and those people said they were inaccurrate, so i was kinda repeating what i heard, but I could easily be wrong, so you say they are pretty accurate? I'll have to try one then.

My apologies, I didnt know what i was talking about, merely repeating what i heard.

as far as the times i was talking about, joelster, I think that a 1.8 is a helluva time for that car on that day, the way these other guys were talking, i was thinking that they thought it should be turning much faster times when the motor has asthma.

also, ABA i wasn't calling BS on you, i just get skeptical of anything other than a timeslip, too many ricers around here that say their neon does 10s when my friend with his 13 second camaro wipes em up

yea when i wrote that i was kinda annoyed by everyone saying what seemed to me was that a th350 is a crap transmission and when i said that i wanted a timeslip, yea i coulda put that in better words as to what i meant, but i was kinda ticked already, so i went and talked about the benefits of the th350

again my apologies, i'm going to edit that post a bit

 

Wow. People are pretty passionate about thier transmission choice aren't they.
I think it comes down to how you use (or in some cases, abuse) your transmission. I like to upshift and downshift whenever I like, within the limits of the engines RPM capabilities of course. You really can't do that with a 60E, at least everyone says you aren't supposed to.
I have a transbrake, this is still in its infancy with the 60E so time will tell how they hold up with a brake.
And most important to me........Durability, with what I have planned I have doubts about the best 60E in the world holding up. I expect 50k out of my trannies or more and that is THE biggest reason I went with a TH400.

Frank
Thank you very much for taking the time to explain your position on the 60E, I for one was of the mind that you really only liked to build overdrive transmissions and this is why you so staunchly defended them. You know, this is where my bread and butter is so I will go to the mat for the 60E at all times.
I now know that is not the case and can see more clearly your passion for these transmissions.
I have a 95 firebird that will be getting a V8 swap soon and since it won't be the beast the camaro is heading towards I will contact you when I need a new overdrive tranny for it.

 

I know Cablebandit ran 9's with his race built 4L60E. As far as I know high 9's are as fast as anyone has gone with any form of consistancy behind that transmission.

I can't see you gaining anything (ET/trap) from going 4L60E to TH350 but I'm sure the MVB makes driving the car a lot more fun. But the bottom line is if you're happy with your choice then that's all that really matters. Good luck with the new setup.

 

thats what i like to hear

 

From the sound of it, it seems like they may have designed your converter a little too tight. If your stall was stalling 4000 rpm and you were sticking on your launch, you should have pulled a way better 60 ft. than 1.85. I pulled 1.98 with a completely stock suspensioned car with boltons (stock converter) and street tires. What does your car flash if you goose it from an idle?

 

It will flash on a brake torque right up to 4G. I have to say this again though. My motor is MILD! Most of the bolt-ons STOCK EXHAUST MANI's! On a 55 degree day late last year with an awesome track prep my car 60-footed 3 consistent 2.00x's in a row. My best last Sunday was a 1.82 and it was about 80ish with high humidity and a 20-30mph crosswind. It was one of those track days where everyone was running bad. You can't predict what my 60 foot time should be if you don't know anything about whats under the hood.

 

the 2.0s were b4 the 350 conversion , and yes stock manis arent helping him a whole lot