Phenomenal to say the least. What an improvement! I was on my second 4L that decided to stop shifting at WOT from 2nd-3rd. I wasn't going to take the chance on a third one, so I went old school. I have a full-race prep th350, manual valve body (forward pattern), with a 4000rpm custom stall with anti-baloon plate. My transmission shop installed a kit that bolts the 4L tailshaft up to the th350 case, which allows the use of the stock crossmember, same speedo setup and the torque arm bolts right up. They had to purchase a new dipstick tube (lokar) and they used the stock shifter.

Hows it drive?--For those who think the stall is too much for the street, I am telling you it is fine. The car will move if you just touch the gas. Most people assume that every time you accelerate the car you have to mash the gas up to 4G, simply not true! The manual valve body makes it a lot of fun too. You leave the line in first, then click, click, and you cruise in third. Just downshift when you come to the next light. VERY STREETABLE!!! The only drawback is a lack of 4th gear!

Conclusion--I saved a TON of money doing it this way, and now I have a tranny rated at 700HP with a converter rated at 800HP. Most likely the LAST trans I will ever put in the car period. Oh, I will be at the track later today, but my butt-o-meter tells me I probably dropped a good half sec off my E.T. with no problem, the car is a monster out of the hole!

 

Let us know the real numbers when you hit the track again. I doubt you dropped a half second but that all depends on what stall you had in the 4L60. As far as all the money you "saved"......imagine how much money you'll be spending now on fuel w/o O.D. It will quickly diminish your momentary savings of probably 1K at the most. The 4L60 is not a cheap transmission to build CORRECTLY. There are many issues to be addressed, and quite honestly, people just dont do it. You can easily have over $500 in parts alone and thats not list price. The stock unit is only good for what it was put behind. Unless its mainly a track car, with VERY limited street use, you're going backwards to put a 350/400 in there. If you really want to put some power and still have O.D. then go to a 4L80 swap. But now you're talking some more $$ that most people dont WANT to spend. You all know the saying, we all want to be cheap as possible, but if you wanna play you gotta pay.

 

60 ft. will suffer with a th350, because the 4L60E has a steeper first gear...And you lose O/D. You would've been better off to get someone who knows what they're doing to build the 4L60E.

Frank
CPT

 

You guys both have valid points there. For me personally, my Z28 is my "play" car. Gas mileage? Anyone who builds a street/strip car and complains about gas mileage is in the wrong sport/hobby IMO. If you can't afford the extra 20-30 bucks a week, go mow some lawns on sunday. Obviously if your f-bod is your only car then thruway cruising would be a priority, it isn't for me. The points I was trying to make is 1.It is much more inexpensive to build a bulletproof th350, the recipes have been out there for years. 2.The swap isn't too difficult. 3. High-stalls aren't unstreetable. and 4. Manual valve bodies aren't a chore on the street. As far as my track numbers go, my 4L's had stock stalls, so I'm sure the improvement I'm feeling is mostly from the stall itself. Just out of curiousity, what could one expect to pay for a 4L60E capable of handling 700HP or a 4L80 for that matter? How much do 4000rpm stalls for them go for?

 

Stalls are in the $600 to 800$ range and some of those built 4L's are over 2g's I will be putting a 350/400 in my track car.

 

I'm with you on this. The TH400 with the 4k stall was the best thing I have ever done for the car. It's not a DD and the gas mileage does not bother me when I only put 3 to 5 thousand miles on the car a year.
It just tickles me to pull the dipstick out and see trans fluid the way its supposed to look. Mine is a RMVB and I can upshift and downshift and do all kinds of nasty things to it that you just can't do with the 60E.
I just hate seeing guys who really would be better off running a TH350/400 (mainly high horsepower guys who spent all thier money on the engine and don't have the cash to rebuild the tranny every 15k or less)

Now don't get me completely wrong, Frank, I think its great that your back up and I can reccomend your services with confidence. And I realize that going with the A3 has put me in the red headed stepchild of the 4th gen bunch but I would do it again in a heartbeat.

 

AMEN brother,

i rode in this car, its def streetable and launches nicely

i love it

i may end up going this route

 

Track time updates. Hard to compare, really. It was a "bad air" day to say the least. 30-40mph winds, 80 degrees, high humidity. The car has a new problem now. It launches hard enough now to push both rear tires hard up into the wheelwell lips. On some of my passes I was smoking the entire way down the track. I was consistently running 2.0-2.05 60 foots before, last night I hit a bunch of 1.82's-1.87's, so 2 tenths improvement right out of the hole, then it felt like I was kinda riding the brakes going down the track (tire rubbing). I'll have to get the correct offset wheels, and hit it up again, but based on the 60's and the bad air, I would guesstimate .35-.45 better than before with the 4L.

 

I was expecting better.....I can cut 1.80's on STREET tires. No suspenion mods or anything. That track needs better prep or something. Not trying to dog you just sharing what "my" 4l60E does. I have a friend who SWEARS you'll gain around 30hp with a 350 turbo over a 4l60e and even more with a 400......because they are lighter and have less rotating mass. Next time I will be going with a 350 turbo to find out. I doubt I'll see anytime soon though. This transmission by Frank at CPT has been rock solid. (knock on wood).

 

Um...My stock suspension, stock bottom end, full weight A4 car goes 1.67 60 ft. times on ET Streets.

The TH400 uses more HP than a TH350 or 4L60E. The 350 and 700/4L60E are about equal in how much HP they soak up.

The reality is, many swap to the 350 just because anyone can build one. It takes someone who really knows what they're doing to build a 4L60E. Because of this, the '60E has gotten an undeserved bad reputation.

Personally, I like having better 60 ft. times, and retaining overdrive.

BTW, a TH350 isn't any stronger than a properly built 700/4L60E.

Frank
CPT

 

Expecting better than my 1.82 60 foot time? I think you are assuming I have a nitrous sniffing beast of a motor. I have bolt-ons, stock exhaust manifolds, and a cam. I would put my car around 300ish at the wheels with a weight of around 3550-3600 with me in it. Nothing out of the ordinary.

 

I've got almost 3 years and countless 1.55 60's on my 4L60E...A properly built 4L60E will handle alot more than you think and I still get 20 mpg on the highway...It was a few $$$ but it still snaps my neck in every gear...just my .02.. Not trying to be an ***...It didn't even flinch when it went a 10.98on a Mustang dyno 1/4 mile blast this year with a 1.35 60'! (gotta love being strapped to the dyno for traction....)

--Alan

 

I'm sorry to do this but some things must be understood

as far as transmissions, the th350 has been around for most of the 350's life, it's a great transmission that with a basic rebuild will handle upwards of 400hp, and what really matters is torque capability, but build it right and it'll handle the same, but it'll feel faster as the non lockup converter will act as though you lightened the flywheel, and you'll experience better throttle response over the lockup converter, and also higher stall speeds. The lockup converter has more components and takes more to get it moving.

next order of business the 4l60e depends on its converter locking to keep it running cool enough, th350 Non L/U is made to not have a converter lockup and will have less heat issues (good for when you hotlap at the track), th350 also has been around so long that any transmission shop will rebuild one half bulletproof for $400, and you can get a high stall for $130-200 ish whereas your 4l60e requires a special shop that has experience in them and a much more expensive lockup converter, which because of the extra rotating mass costs a lot to make it stall high, and they will never be able to stall as high as the highest non L/U converter because of the torque aspects so they are simply inadequate in all out race cars.

for gas mileage, your fuel management system in an injected car is going to give you over 20 mpg in a 1.0 final drive gear, anything lower than a 1.0 final generally loads the engine more and requires more fuel, so your mileage improves with the speed of the car, but not so much as you may think... think of it as driving in 3rd in your A4; or 4th in a t56; those are both 1.0s

yea you lose a couple mpg, but deal with it, figure 5,000 miles a year 2 mpg loss out of say 25mpg avg, at 25 you have 200 gallons at 23 you have 217 gallons used each year, so another $50 a year... who cares, by the time you find the $2000 difference add up we'll be flying to work every day, the 1.0 final drive gear was used for most of automotive history from the powerglide to the muncie rock crusher to the th400 to the saginaw 3 band, it's a good drive gear, not much bogging even in a stock application, it puts most engines at or near peak volumetric efficiency, and in the cam powerband.

and if you really want an overdrive they sell bolt on OD for th350s for $1300 and you simply turn it off when racing, and no worries you can't shift into it. and you're not in the $2000 difference area yet, plus you can get an even higher OD, just that high an OD would require something like 5.26s to keep from burning that stall up on the highway.

powerglides and th350s are also used in many a drag car for the light weight, and the ability to make it shift faster and harder than other transmissions. And lastly they have a good spread, unlike many other transmissions they stay in each gear rather equally 2.52, 1.52 and 1.0, are simply good ratios, take a 700r4 for example, your 60 ft kicks butt, but your 8th sucks since it didnt shift out of second until the 1000 ft line, and then your quarter sucks as well. Also, usually with a vacuum modulator, and a cheap shift kit, a th350 will burn the tires into each gear. A fair amount $ less than reprogramming the electronic transmissions shift points and getting the valving set right

for a hobby car that money is a concern with, the th350 is a great choice, but if you havent broken a 4l60e yet (wait til you get around 150,000 miles), dont want to change, or have excessive mileage every year, a 4l60e is a great choice.

all transmissions have a place where they should be used, and if you want to spend $800 on a stall for your stock transmission go ahead, but when I blew my L/U tranny, i found i could get a th350 that would handle around ~500 hp, then buy a 12.5 " 2800 stall, a shiftkit, and a monster tranny cooler for a th350 for $600. Where that stall alone in the lockup would cost more than $450 then need shipping, a tranny cooler, a high buck shiftkit so it would keep locking and thus keep the transmission from cookin itself...

i'm a hobbyist, my '72 350 and 750cfm holley get me about 13 mpg on a good weekend, and in perfect conditions i hit maybe 14 mpg, gas is gas, you drive for fun. drive what you have fun driving

 

Frank, you don't have a problem building a TH350/400 do you?
Every person has a preference and I can understand you wanting to talk up the 60E but why not offer to build one or the other based on personal choice?
I had really bad luck with the 60E and yeah I prolly got a bad builder but on the other hand I have this wonderful, glowing, nothin but love relationship with my TH400.
I really feel this was the best way to go for me.
Maybe there are some guys out there that would be like "Hey Frank, you do such a great job with the 60Es why don't you build me a TH350 cause thats what I like to run?"

 

I don't know where you get your info from, but the Mustang dyno 1/4 sim is pretty accurate when you factor in a more realistic 60'. We've seen very consistent results at two different shops with mustang dynos. A Mustang dyno is not a dyno for Mustangs ...Its a brand of dyno with no relation to the Ford Mustang!!! We've got several local cars in the 1.40s with 4L60Es and they are doing just fine...So you lost me there....

I tried to follow your logic in your post, but there is none I can see...Sounds like you're calling "BS" on me. I run an N/A 383 with a 4L60E, 3600 Vig, some standard bolt on Spohn suspension stuff, stock springs and shocks, a 12 bolt with 3.73s and an Eaton HD limited slip and the 60's in my sig were on little 255 50 R16 ET Drag Radials on 16x8 stockers. My rwhp on the Mustang dyno was 385. I run at Capitol Raceway in Crofton, MD and would be happy to have you stop by...

No doubt TH350s can be rebuilt fairly inexpensively and are pretty durable, but a good converter is $700-800 no matter if its a lock up type or not. I'm just saying that you can have the best of both worlds for a few more $$$.

"Mustang dynos are not accurate because the Mustang is lighter than an F-body" ....Oh boy....that just kills me...

--Alan