Um...Has anyone else noticed that 3 of my customers have posted in this thread about how well their transmissions work? None of them have vacuum modulators .

Frank

 

Does anybody have any solid proof of which works better? I would like to see some real world tests, or maybe somebody who has had both reply on this. Right now I'm going between the two shops who are going back and forth.
Also myself and others included, will more than likely choose the one who seems to treat the other builder with respect. (A not needed pissing match.) Ed Wright may be the end of it all. Seeing how his knowledge is very much respected in the F-body world.

 

I can't Disagree with either of you....Ed does know his stuff, as does Frank....When I first got my tranny back from Frank, got it in, got it running decent I emailed Ed,told him that the tranny was shifting out at 5900rpm @ WOT I couldn't figure out why. Ed was quick to tell me that it had to be set at that RPM to get it to shift at 6400 (thats how bad my previous tranny was)and that whomever built the tranny was a hell of a tranny builder because there is ussually some lag there but in mine there wasn't. It shifted at 5900 on the money everytime(not what I wanted but consistant) So he moved it to 6500 and it still nails the shifts everytime at 6500rpm.....

With that said I can't complain about either ....Its all preference

 

I spoke to Frank at Cahill when I needed a trans about a month ago. He seemed very knowledgeable and helpful. I had to go someplace else because he couldn't supply a core. He also does the rebuilds part time as he has a full time job working for someone else's transmission shop.

For these two reasons I chose someone else. All the other builders I spoke to offered vacuum modulation as an option or as standard on their rebuilds. These were all very established and reputable builders. I doubt they were doing this to hide their lack of knowledge or some other technical deficiency.

Having said that I think Frank's professional and personal attack on everyone that has a different opinion or approach to the 4L60E is totally uncalled for and unprofessional. As a business man myself I would never attack the credibility of my competition on such a personal and disrespectful level. Cahill has lost my consideration of any future business forever, no matter what the price!

 

Pro Built has never failed me and I salute them.

 

Being a business man yourself then why is it you either don't post all the information or only what helps make your point??

• Yes you have to provide your own core, or the price goes up but that is because he has to buy a core for you, which he has a couple times... Should he eat that cost or pass it on for cost, no! Does he do it anyway, yes! I have seen him buy cores and only add the cost he spent on them...
  
• He does build the performance trannies in his free time from his other job as a transmission builder at a local shop. Prior to becoming a Senior builder at this local shop he worked many years in a shop that did a lot of performance work and was used as a testing site for Sonnex R&D, Frank himself was a large part of the R&D work. After moving to a different company, for the pay increase. His local reputation had the performance croud following him, but the new shop owner didn't like doing performance work since there was a good chance racers might void his warrantee. Frank made araingents to build a couple of his performance trannies out of that shop on his spare time and has moved into a shop of his own again on his spare time outside of the normal work week. And those who had there stuff put together rather quickly, like myself who only had a single day turnaround. should think about the fact that this guys builds trannies all day long and when he gets home he then builds performance trannies for us and take great pride in that, because he does...

Yes he does get on here and makes personal attacks against some others but so do many other sole proprieterships, have you even read the posts back and forth from AI and LE about head porting, but they are still very well respected. It's just their oppinions differ when it comes to their work... Frank gets overly excited in his responces because, he takes such pride in his work and sometimes there are guys out there that don't...

BTW, sorry to hear that you are no longer considering CPT, but when you tranny breaks again, and you start doing the math on the money waisted on it, you may want to call Frank again. You won't regret it...

***EDIT***
Glen,
I just looked it up and you are running a Probuilt tranny, so I retract the comment about it breaking again... I have no heard too many bad things about Dana's work but like I said just differing oppinions on what works best. But that is what racing is all about right? If there was one formula for success everyone would be running it right?

 

Let's start here...First of all it's CAHALL. Next we'll point out something you may have missed. I race 2 F-Bodies, so I'm more than just another transmission builder. My main objective in this message board is to save people from blowing money on stuff that don't work. I've been through everything when it comes to the 4L60E. I've seen everything, and I've tried everything. I was inside these things before most other people knew what they were.
Point is, we tried vacuum modulators 10 years ago. They just don't work. EVERY vacuum modulated 4L60E that anyone else built, or we built always came apart cooked. Argue about it if you'd like. If anyone chooses to get one, I only ask that you remember this post when it ends up toast. I'm not "attacking" anyone. I'm just trying to help other F-Body owners (and racers) to make the right decisions, and not get burnt.
As for your personal thoughts about me? What difference does it make that I do this aside from my 40 hour a week job? I still build transmission for those other 40 hours. The fact that this is my own buisness actually works out BETTER. Anyone else offering a race 4L60E for $1000? The reason I can is because it's not my "bread and butter". Ever read a negative post about one of my transmissions? Ever hear about a dissatisfied customer? So, I'm wiped off your list of future prospects. That's cool..That just means you'll have to search for someone else in a few months when your new trans takes a dump...I've got an idea...Send it out west and have them put a vacuum modulator in it.
I also think you're a little confused. You used the word OPINION. I'll never be so controversial about opinion. I will, however, state what is fact.

Frank

 

O.k., so you've tried the vacuum modulator idea out and it didn't work out for you. But it sounds like since that didn't work out, you decided to perfect the other option, which it sounds like you've perfected it better than anybody else. You definitely got me thinking. The only thing that sucks is that your on the other side of the country.
This is why I love this board, you can get two really good builders that will give their expertise and then decide which option you would like to choose. Mostly because this is quite a bit of money were throwing around for performance parts.

 

I didn't see Frank attack anybody. Different strokes for different folks. He chooses to do it electonically, and others use a vacuum modulator. When he says he has done R&D and tried the vacuum modulators, then take his word for it. He has built many transmissions and is very much a professional when it comes to his services. I have never seen anybody complain about one of his rebuilds, so I could care less of he builds them on his kitchen counter and uses his sink for a parts cleaner. Bottom line is, he not only comes here and gives out some very valuable FREE knowledge to anyone that asks, he offers great value. Perhaps Pro-built and Rock-On have a different approach, thats fine and I am sure they would give there opinion or state what there R&D has concluded, and i'll bet they would shoot down others opinion on how the job is done better with a vacuum modulator, that is in no way a personal, or professional attack plain and simple....so quit whining.

 

Hey....I use vacume modulation because of the electronic controllers.....G.M. has 8-11 external controllers (external to the transmission) controlling the line rise....not to mention all the associated wireing harnesses,and connectors involved....then they have all the programming issues..all this Stuff (for lack of a better word) must work together flawlessly, under any driving extreme, or weather condition or reguards to age (of the vehicle)...... Not to mention any professional, or non professional doing the install and know what represents BAD line rise. How many of you actually check the line rise after the install?? How many times have you read on this fourm "my stock transmission went 80,000 miles and my built transmission only went 3000"?? We slove all these problems and more with the vacume modulator...In our situation it is a simple solution to many problems ...Not to mention It's a more reliable delivery system. I'm not saying everyone should switch,we run alot of stock modulation we charge an extra 2 hours on the install to check all the electronics, and make sure the system is working. In short vacume modulation has worked quite well for us and I might add ,Pro-built, theres a whole lot more to these things than proprer line rise,but you must have proper line rise before you can do anthing else. We get some with electronic ...some with vacume.....If we could figure out a way to do it with a cable we'd be doing that as well.. I guess it boils down to there are several ways to skin a cat.....yea yea I know we're not skinning cats....Not intended as a slamb to anyone jus my two cents..This is a long post for that I'm sorry..I hope this helps Dave (IMO)

 

Let's just say that it could very well be possible that somebody has perfected the electronics side of all of this. I almost feel like I'd be going backwards if I went the vacuum modulator route. Like as mentioned before, it's a close comparison to putting a carb on a fuel injected engine. Not saying that the builders who use the vacuum route don't know what they are doing, but just like the fuel injected scenario, those builders are usually the ones who do not understand fuel injection and how the computer controls it. I believe Frank has figured out how the electronics side of this transmission works, just as how others have figured out how to tweak our fuel injection to get the power we see today.

I personally am going to use Frank, as I believe he is the better of my many options. When it comes down to it, I would rather send my transmission across the country and get a better product than deal with something that I now believe to be going backwards.

Trust me, if this transmission takes a crap on me I'll be the first one on here letting everybody know. I HATE to be wrong, but after researching both options I now know who I'm going with. The same applies when the transmission is kicking @ss. I'll definitely re-post my findings.

 

You won't be dissapointed.

I like to see disagreements on here. It makes you stop and think about things and go your own way with it. Not just take someones advice blindly.

I have to say thanks Frank. You have given me and many others on this board much advice. You even took a stab at telling me what my current problem is, where as other transmission places would just say "you need a rebuild". yea i need a rebuild otherswise i wouldn't be here, but why do i need one is the question. We are talking about a guy who tells you how to make things work and straight up answers. I see no one else selling a race 4L60E for $1000. Frank is on this board giving advice on what parts to use, or what a problem might be. He is supporting our board memebers in our common goal to go fast and be first.

I'm starting to tinker with a 4L60E myself. I have yet to decide where or what direction i'm going. I just want to try to learn a thing or two and see if I can't put some half-azz transmission together.

 

When injection and carburetion are used as a comparison it’s much like comparing an apple to an orange. In this case I think the comparison is much like comparing a granny smith apple to a red delious, apple to apple

When we compared electronic to vacuumed we found that when both systems were working properly they both rose as fast as each other (.002 seconds). From min. to max pressure that’s where the similarities ended.

Where they separated was with the electrical spikes that can be created by the added electronics (ignition, nos solenoids, even had a/c compressor on one. ect ).

We also found that the electrical system (on shipped units) was fail able because of customer unawareness (tps, map sensor, transmission fluid temp, bad speed sensor, grounds, improper battery voltage, not having proper equipment to install, ect).

Also the line rise of the unit is subject to the interpretation by anyone who has a tuner. If it’s tuned wrong, tough luck, no line rise.

The electronic line rise is further complicated by the condition of the fluid, and the temp of the pc solenoid its self, we have found that 15 degree change in solenoid temperature can result in a 40 psi change in line pressure.

When energized the pc becomes a magnet, attracting metal particles in the transmission, further complicating matters of line rise.

There is a screen in this unit that when plugged will result in low line rise, drill it out as you may your then sending the debris directly to the mechanical side of the pc, plus you’ll plug the screen on the actuator feed limit or the torque signal fluid side or stick the spool valve….now if the valve sticks on high your ok you get hard hitting shifts more times than not it’ll stick on the low side, improper low, slow, line rise results.

We found that when screwing the adjustment screw in(on the pc) it gives unpredictable often times violent uncontrollable line rise.

I’ve heard many say that installing a vacuum modulator is going backwards. But never have I heard or seen the reasons why. To say that vacuum modulation is antiquated is to infer that push rods are as well. When it is said that all transmissions come in burned with vacuum modulators not one word is uttered as to the why it’s burned. What failed and why? Why would you have a tranny come in that wasn’t burned in some form? Most folks wait till their transmission is no longer working to have it fixed (built). Nine out of ten transmissions that come to us are burned on the 3-4 clutch all them have electrical line rise. Based on the above should I then throw away all the electronics? Of course not, that would be ridiculous!! And half of them fail because of the external controllers. The other 10% are hard part failures.

I don’t understand making blanket statements like” I don’t understand it” or “I’m afraid of it” because I use vacuum. I understand this transmission better than most, unlike others this transmission is my full time job and we race them as well. I can set them up electrically or vacuumed. I prefer vacuum. The system is quicker, more consistent, easier delivery, built-in failsafe, non-electrical, easier to troubleshoot, cheaper, delivers max. pressure on demand, creates an environment for quicker shifts, is easier on the pump, has fewer moving parts, provides steadier line pressure, is not subjected to electrical spikes, runs cooler, and it greatest advantage is it works off vacuum. No Vacuum = max. Pressure. Antiquated maybe, old school yes, backwards I think not…. This is not meant as a slam too anyone, just one mans findings….I hope this helps…… Dave

 

The comparison between fuel injection and carbed engines is right on par with the transmission analogy. 10-15 years ago there were people deathly afraid of the basic fuel injected set up, this is counting the mechanics that have been doing this for years, who play it out like they know what they are talking about but in reality don't understand the whole scope of fuel injection. (This includes tuning and what sensor affects what, etc. etc.)

Back on track to what I was saying; there are transmission builders out there who have been building transmissions for years and they really don't understand fully how the electronics side of a transmission work. Do they have the basics? Ya, of course they do, or they wouldn't be in business at all. But when it comes down to figuring out how to work out the flaws in a high performance engine there are going to be people out there. Just like in the fuel injection scenerio, there are people that have figured out how to rework the electronics to work perfectly and get around the flaws. The modern electronic transmission has been seriously overlooked and ignored by many. I feel that the transmission side of modern cars have not kept up with the other power train parts making this our weak link. Going vacuum because it is tried and true doesn't mean that there are not ways around the electronics flaws. We just need builders that will go that extra mile and figure out how to go around the flaws and I'm not just talking about tuning. When I do research and realize that there are people out there building transmissions that are not burning clutches, but are breaking hard parts because of high h.p. engines, not poorly built transmissions. These hard part problems are being adressed also.

Using the push rod analogy; push rods are old technology but have been perfected and modernised, (roller valve train, head set up, valve size, oiling, it goes on and on, let's just say LSX). We are talking electronics vs the old school way. Much like how the 4l60e is just a 700r4 that has been modernized by way of electronics. I understand fully how a transmission works ( I've built two C6s, and a couple of TH350s myself.) and I could have built my own using the vacuum setup, but if there is a guy that can do it right by perfecting the electronics then that will be my guy.

 

Wow talk about food for thought. Very informative thread. Now when do we,4l60e users get a trans brake. Please.