In NA.

But then again....who knows. Just no plans to make coupes in Australia.

 

All that means is that the Monaro will not be built in Australia.

 

So........ then, how hard is it to make a GTO then?

Too many circles. Yoinks.

 

Good question!

Maybe the next Monaro might be more Camaro-like????

 

I expect the story on specific variants to be ongoing long after Zeta debuts.

 

Maybe Monaro might not come back, and we see Torana and Camaro as sister cars? I mean, we talked abotu theTorana's chassis being perfect for a Camaro...but how come we didnt see it the other way around?

 

I like that idea.

 

 

What is with the face Guy?
Its the only logical thing I can think of.
GTO wont be built becaue there is no sister car...but the Camaro will be built on some other chassis by itself? Uh...something doesnt fit. So that means that there needs to be a sister car, be it sedan or coupe, it be built along side the Camaro in order to give the Camaro a green light.

 

Just as likely...or unlikely...to happen, as anything else.

 

The GTO uses an LS2 now, along with the now aged T56. This means if GM wants to make a RWD car, they know exactly what engine they want to stick in it (5.3L, 5.7L, 6L), and even what transmission. That cuts down on the engine, ECU, tranny, and control systems, even the pinouts to the dashboard have already been done, its just a matter of the cluster layout.

Now we have the suspension system. The GTO and CTS both use IRS suspensions, and knowing a next gen GTO and CTS (think the next Zeta and Sigma chassis) will ALSO use IRS. This means that the design of how and where to bolt the thing up is already done. Keep the bolting pattern and space requirements on an altered chassis and everything still lines up. That means a new Camaro could use the IRS currently in existence without much hassle. Personally I nearly expect it at this point, espicially now that GM can see how the aftermarket community has responded to abusing their cars during the first 10,000 miles and beyond. The IRS has potential and doesnt break *too* much. Ideal? No. But imagine a Camaro with an IRS when a Mustang doesnt. That would help a sales standpoint with a new car. Again, the research is there, as are the parts, engineering, tooling, and costs. All that work is done.

Now right off the bat, that means that if we wanted to totally new chassis made tomorrow with a T56, LS2, and IRS we know what parts to use, what bolting patterns we need, and thanks to designs already in use, we know what torque the engine will apply to the mounts and subframe, and how much abuse the suspension/mounts/frame needs to hold the IRS. Front suspension could probably be pulled from either car as well, for the most part atleast. If it's pinned off the Sigma or the GTO, we have our front suspension already, as the GTO and CTS-V have acceptable (or slightly better) ride and handling in the modern market. I wouldnt complain having my camaro ride like a new GTO, and most Camaro enthusiasts would agree - if the car is cheaper then a GTO of course. It's a step up certainly, and considering the skidpad numbers dont lie, it can hold up with the new mustang. With a lower center of gravity and some minor tweaks, it could perform better without much hassle. Like a stiffer suspension for example...

Now we just need to make the chassis crash-worthy from a safety standpoint, design the body, the lighting, the windows/doors/seats/dashboard/trunk.... you get the idea. However ALL of those systems (now knowing the restraints for forces, mass, and size, of the suspension and driveline) can be subject much more to the infinite manpower theory. One guy can design the seats while another does the window motors. But you cant turn around and decide how to build the subframe or how tall to make the hood when the engine isnt done yet... From this point most of the changes are minor and can be done at once. Delays are there, but not something that cant be accounted for.

"Vaporware" is very true here. But for all intents and purposes it doesnt matter what chassis a Camaro would go on. We all know the formula (rwd 2+2 v8). So does GM. And you know the guys making decisions as of late are well aware of our complaints. Once you know *about* what the product looks like, and you know what room you need for the driveline/suspension, you can easily determine what chassis to use, or rather, what modifications it will get to be used. The chassis change may slow things down, but what was decided in the past 12 months is already done.

IF a camaro is going to be built, it's probably already decided. To the average consumer, looks would be nearly identical on a modded or unique chassis. They wouldnt know the difference. The only thing that is a concern is that the cost and profit margins dont change dramatically. That will be effected by switching chassis of course, but I dont see it as the "oh no we're not going to build this anymore!" because of it. The GTO going or staying is also something that's probably nearly set in stone as well. Not something worth worrying over. I could see a Camaro and a GTO... but not a Chevelle too...

However, a quick look at the market reveals a thought. If GM Made the GTO $5000 cheaper it would sell VERY differently. Imagine that effect, and then add asthetics where the GTO failed. Finding a way to pull $5k out of the GTO would be HARD. But if it were done and given good looks it would sell very well. Now chop down the cowl and call it a Camaro. Not a bad place in the market. But just as the XLR is an expensive corvette - building the Camaro and GTO on similar platforms where the consumer CAN notice they are the same will make a GTO an expensive Camaro - which the market would reject promptly and GTO's sales will fall.

If the Camaro comes out more then $4000 cheaper then a GTO, but both are similar, the Camaro would sell and the GTO would loose sales. If it were more then $4000 difference, the GTO will suffer more compared to a very cheap counterpart. If the difference is less then $4000 and the GTO's price is where it is now, Camaro sales would suffer from being priced too much higher then a mustang. If the Camaro's price drops and the GTO does as well (which would be a good move), both will do well, but they will start to compete with each other. The market honestly may not have the room right now for both a GTO and a Camaro... It depends on where GM wants its sales to go.

And from a marketing standpoint, dropping the GTO (which has had so-so response and no real market image) with a Camaro that could fit right into Chevys current "sibling" rivalry would make sense, creating an image in the middle right where it should be. Look at the buyers ages. There SHOULD be something in the middle. It also means the playful commercials that we've seen and loved could continue. As they have done well from a marketing standpoint, might as well try and play off that. It couldnt hurt, and that ALONE would be a better marketing setup then the GTO has now... which is pretty much nothing. Again, notice how little marketing the GTO got compared to the Cobalt. That might be a sign of how serious people upstairs at GM take the GTO...

People at GM in the know already know if the GTO was a test or the real thing. If the GTO really only was a test, to create a temporary platform in here and see what the market will take and what it wont, they have their answers. The Camaro coming back strong has the potential for a LOT of sales. Coming back weak would look horrid to enthusiasts AND investors. It needs to succeed in every way the GTO failed.

However, what happens when the Monaro is US built? We'll have a car "re-badged" from it I'm sure. But if the GTO stays, it will be a hard task to find the balancing point between GTO sales and Camaro sales, even if they are on different chassis and different sizes. The GTO cant change in size much to next generation, and the Camaro being a bit smaller will make a difference - but they are very close.

Again, IF a Camaro is coming, its nearly just a matter of when and on what platform... Unless costs go through the roof. IF the GTO is going away, that's probably already decided too.

 

Which Camaro will be cheaper? Certainly the V6.

Assuming we get a Camaro, I can envisage a whole range of Camaro models. Certainly less expensive ones...but maybe ones as expensive or more expensive as GTO.

Really, no offence here, but I think that these comparisons are getting silly and tiresome.

GTO is a one trick pony. (I use the word "pony" loosely). GTO only comes one way...take it or leave it. One trim level. One engine. One model. Limited production.
GTO is an expedient product which was based on something already in the GM system and re-badged...for better or worse. Holden, never designed the Monaro to be a Pontiac GTO. GTO...(love it or hate it)..is a car of convenience. Maybe merely a place holder for awhile.....maybe not.

The true comparisons for Camaro are still with the Mustang. Multiple price points. Multiple powerlevels. Multiple trim levels/models/niches. And of course, high volume.

 

I totally agree on many accounts. But from a pricing standpoint, the new Camaro should be feature to feature close in price to the new Mustang. I think having an IRS would be a good extra to have if the mustang still didnt have it by then. Models could get as expensive as the GTO - but there needs to be a cheaper V8 model (again, close to or perhaps at... or even below to the Mustang GT price).

Personally I used the GTO for the comparison because aside from styling (which I find bland) everything else about the car I love. The interior and ride are above average for a modern GM (though new models have gotten better in the past year - what does that say about GM's trend? ), and honestly I was very pleased with the fit and finish. Interior styling was great too (aside from a button hidden behind the wheel on the dash). Rear seats looked great and were comfortable to ride in for a 2+2. Yes the GTO only comes in one model and with low volume, but I think it makes its point against a GT.

In low volume the numbers dont lie - and aside from styling (which is in the eye of the beholder) the Monaro/GTO ONLY looses to the Mustang GT in trunk space and in that its more expensive. For a car not designed for the states and in small volume, it did just fine no matter how you look at it. But I think it's a good indication that if GM really wanted to produce a RWD coupe that performs like the current Monaro for the North American and/or Global market they could easily. Do it much cheaper? I dont know, and thats my #1 concern, as the dollar rules all. I know holden's practices are fast and efficient - but would a much larger volume in production make up for the added design costs from GMNA?