I wasn't as clear as I should have been.

Josh's post that the Camaro shouldn't be built at all is when you take a look at it from the outside is actually right. By all logic and business sense, it simply doesn't compute.

1. The company needs to reestablish high profit margins on cars to sucessfully ween itself off of high profit margins of trucks and SUVs.

2. The profit margin on Camaro is going to be razor thin. It's going to have more expensive items than the Mustang currently does.

3. The volume it's going to sell at isn't likely to go beyond 100K. If I'm not mistaken, the now dead Aztek and Rendevous sold about that.

4. The program from a logical standpoint is bassakwards. The volume and profitable sedans should be set up 1st with the Camaro spinning off of that.

5. Camaro required alot of additional engineering. It would have been far easier & cheaper to instead go with GM's original plan of creating a muscle coupe based on the Impala that essentially replaced the Monte Carlo.

I can name probally another half dozen reasons off the top of my head.

GM doesn't NEED Camaro from the standpoint of sales, profit, or even to boost Chevrolet's image. Performance enthusiasts are only about 10% of the market, and most all of them can be channeled into other cars.... people need sedans, but people don't need a RWD sports coupe.

I'm not as up on them as I am on the Zeta. Basically everything I've already mentioned on other threads.

It's moving through the pipeline. Pontiac-Holden, Opel, & Cadillac and possibly Saturn are currently envisioned as part of the program.

Almost certainly won't be made in Australia when it first comes out (supposedly about 2011).

Includes both sedan and coupe bodies.

Started off as a 4 cylinder only sporty sedan for Cadillac, & Holden, now seems to have evolved into a potential replacement for a number of cars that are based on both RWD Zeta and FWD Espilon.

Uses Kappa based suspension and drivetrain components.

Is still basically not much more than a computer program and engineering studies. Doubt it's even gotten to market studies yet.

 

Guy,

Your points are all well and good, but we all know GM's profitability isn't going to hinge on Camaro. Forget all this "casual outside observer" BS, I believe I know where you stand on Camaro.

In all honesty, if beancounters ruled the world, performance cars wouldn't exist at all. As illogical as they may seem, there is a positive effect on an entire brand that can't be measured, calculated or quantified. Again, if you want to argue about whether or not GM has done it right by doing Camaro first, that is something I'm willing to consider. Chrysler is finally doing an LX coupe, what, 4 years after the release of the 300?

Chrysler had the "advantage" of Challenger being dead for eons so a few more years didn't matter. The immediate and sustained groundswell for a new Camaro was probably a lot harder for Chevrolet to ignore. Plus they had to deal with Scott.

 

It's looking like GM may want to take a pause to re-jigger some powertrain choices for Zeta - what with whatever ends up happening with CAFE and all.

 

http://fastlane.gmblogs.com/archives...ot_the_en.html

 

Maybe the difference between "on hold" and "paused" means something to the GM bureaucracy, but to me they sound pretty much like the same thing.

Still, despite everything that's been said, this story still doesn't add up -- GM is "locked in" to building a Zeta production line. They need to get some products other than Camaro on that line or they are going to take a bath. So, why delay everything? If they are only concerned about CAFE/MPG Concerns/Hybrids, it seems like it's too late to do anything about that now, so why not go full steam ahead?

 

The Camaro is a game changer.

Toyota took a gamble on the Prius, a car that had zero business case dollars and cents wise, and got tremendous marketing mileage out of that little thing.

Bob, thank God, wasn't too stubborn to realize GM made a mistake by measuring all cars based on their bottom line business case.

GM, short of the Volt, isn't going to ever get a Green image. I am sure they'd much rather have a "back-when-America-was-good" image over the gas guzzling SUV one they're carrying now. And I'm sure they want that as soon as they can get it with gas as expensive as it is.

Anyone asking for a dollars and cents case for the Camaro is asking the wrong question.

 

I think there are some additional reasons as well. Some internal politics at play. And some clever leveraging of a program.

 

That's sorta what I'm getting at -- it must be some tweaks to the product planning.

And I'm not a marketing expert or anything, but I would release the Cadillac sedan before the Chevy one.

 

OK.... maybe I should have said Bob Lutz never said they were cancelling their RWD program:

Scott has frequently said "Zeta" is just a word.

 

Good points.

 

I have neither the sources to support a position nor an understanding of all that goes into the development of an entire new product line, but I hope this delay is for good reasons. I say good reasons from a consumer stand point vice a bean-counter one.

I am targeting a purchase of my "perfect car" in 2010-2012 time frame. I'm looking forward already to driving a few variants and sitting down and ordering EXACTLY what I want in a car vice what happens to be on the lot.

With that, I pray the offerings from GM are not neutered by the bean counters or CAFE concerns..... which I have grave fears will happen if history is any indication.

The next-gen Impala, the G8 GXP (or whatever it will be called by then- **cough <Bonneville> **cough) or even a Caddy offering would be my primary focus offerings.

If GM doesn't loose focus that is......

 

Right there is the reason Camaro is needed. It is essentially gonna be a halo car, though with not nearly as big of one as the Corvette has. It'll generate showroom traffic. It'll snag in buyers that may never have considered a Chevrolet before who want a sporty car then if the experience is good, their next car could be a Chevy sedan for their new family. If they need a truck and their Camaro is dependable, they'll probably give the Silverados and Colorados a look before looking elsewhere.

This is stuff that business reports can't generate but as some have said before, the auto business doesnt operate like most other business's. Theres alot more emotion involved in a car purchase than there is other purchases.

So the Impala is pushed back, I'm sure there is a damn good reason why and if it gives us a better rwd Imp or whatever its called so be it. The fwd Impala, tho some would have it named something else, isnt doing bad at all so the sky isnt falling...

 

Naah, technology allows for a lot more than it did in 1972. Look at what Mopar is doing with the LXs over the next year or two: improved V6s, the dual-mode hybrid for the 5.7 Hemi (mass-market power with reasonable mileage), and the big 400+ hp Hemi(s) with serious suspensions for the hardcore enthusiasts. Most of the cars sold will get decent mileage and the mad dogs like us will get what we want. I figure GM will do something similar, albeit with more choices (and better mileage from the high-horse motors).

Thanks to technology, American V8 performance cars are already starting to go in a direction of being low-power, high-efficiency vehicles running on 4 cyl/2 cyl/an electric motor/a gerbil in a wheel until you hit the loud pedal hard, at which point you'll get all 400/500/whatever hp and the big V8 roar. When you're commuting (and on the EPA tests) the car gets great mileage, but when some ricer kid in a Civic lines up in the other lane you can waste him with confidence.

It wouldn't surprise me in the least if the base C7 Vette had direct injection and cylinder deactivation and other trickery and got something near 30 mpg city, but was still rated at 450 hp or whatever from a big LSwhatever that could back it up when needed. Extrapolate those trends out another ten years and that's the future, IMO.

 

If the delay allows GM to increase the chance they aren't stuck trying to sell white elephants in 2012, I think it's a great idea.

As much fun as a RWD V8 car is, I'd not want to see GM lose billions because they have a bunch of 20mpg V8s for sale in a market that (due to fuel prices or government regulations) is demanding 30-50mph cars.

So it makes sense to wait a bit, understand at least the regulatory environment they'll be selling into, and then tune the offerings for that.

Of course, this is all speculation based on rumor, etc.

 

But that's just it, with current V8 and 6sp manual/auto tranny technology, the MPG ratings in the 30's are not just attainable but realistic.

As someone else mentioned, my hope is that the guys with the 800 pound heads in engineering are looking at ways to trim a bit of weight to push the mileage up further. Add in that Zeta is AWD capable (as I understand it) you present a winning combo that compliments the EPI platforms (i.e. new Malibu) and you fill out the offerings to a full line.

I would think, based on common sense, that the next gen Impala will not sell in as many numbers as the current one, and thats what Malibu is for. Numbers down slightly for Impy and up significantly for Malibu for an increase in net sales. If the Zeta is properly executed.....

Hell who knows, maybe the "delay" is to fully develop AWD and get a bullet-proof 6sp auto in full production to handle Zeta's demand. Throw in a new LS3 into the GXP/SS lines and I'll put a deposit down TODAY!

On a diffrent note, could the "delay" be another result of the ongoing issues with the UAW? Something as large (and important) as Zeta may give GM the additional leverage they need to re-vamp contracts top-to-bottom. Again, I am not "in the know", just a casual observer who loves cars, but I seem to remember hearing the UAW and GM were battling over other lines; EPII and Delta I think. They (GM) have been over a barrel for some time with no choice but to take it from the union; doesn't the current contract expire in September? I'm not in any way trying to start another union bashing thread here, but it would make sense to leverage Zeta to negotiate a better deal with the UAW or buy time to find someplace else to build it. I understand Oshawa is slated to re-tool for Zeta, but that doesn't mean they couldn't shift the bulk of Zeta production elsewhere (off-shore) eventually.

I'm not in the car biz and know nothing; just thinking out loud.