Not because you question just any vehicle, you question the Camaro. On CamaroZ28.com. I find it hard to believe you'll find a lot of people here who would agree with you, for some good reasons.

Oh well. Chevy really could use a RWD sedan but hopefully the G8 tides over people until 2010.

 

That's what I understood was "the plan." And magazines/press made a big deal about the Impala being AWD capable for snow states.

 

Detroit News, today: Per Lutz, the Zeta program will continue, but possibly with a different powertrain mix - hybrids and diesels and whatnot in addition to the gas V6s and V8s.

 

Josh I would have thought that you of all people would understand not to completely trust an anonymous source and to be hesitant to run off with a story. I backed you back then because I believed in you but not anymore, you have taken to many things badly and burned a lot of bridges.

sandles, after going back and reading every post you made here I can see where your info comes from and that you are likely telling the truth. In this 'business' of car speculation I have become a little bit of a cautious person. It must be understood that this hobby can make you crazy.

Having said that I don't understand why GM is pushing back the Impala. My guess is that the bean counters are looking at how much they invested into the current model and they don't feel the return will be quick enough to launch the next model. While I do think the NG Malibu will fill the Impala's role quite well, I understand GM backing up itself. Also couldn't the current Impala just become the Chevy Classic like the current Malibu is going to for a year or so?

 

Doesn't surprise me about the impala.

I'd love to see the cobalt with a small diesel and 5 speed. Would make for an excellent DD that got awesome gas mileage.

 

Who says the RWD Impala can't sell 200,000+? Don't forget any sales RWD Impala loses will be on the low end (which the new Malibu can pick up) and any sales they gain will be on the profit heavy high end. If the avg. selling price goes up a few thousand, losing some sales to the Malibu is no big deal. You also have more low end sales coming from cars like the Aveo.

 

200,000 would be overshooting the realistic market. When the 300 came out it was one of the hottest, most talked-about cars on the market and I don't believe they ever came close to selling 200,000 in a year. I believe it has even been said that the current FWD Impala outsells the entire LX line (300, Charger, Magnum).

No, I think 100,000 Camaros and ~100,000 RWD Impalas would be quite outstanding.

 

I wonder if this could be part of the reason for Impala's delay. We've heard that Pontiac really wants to be a RWD brand. Perhaps they're pushing strongly to make RWD exclusive to their showroom (beyond special cars like Camaro).

Of course, I think it's been a long while since Pontiac has had much say at all in Chevy or GM's overall plans.

 

I don't think that's what they're planning.

I think that they are planning on the Cobalt moving to Malibu's current slot. Aveo will take over for Cobalt. A new, smaller car will likely be introduced below the Aveo.

 

The sky is firmly in place where it has always been and they aren't walking away from anything.

The new Malibu should be everything the W Impala was and more short of the name, and recently its been suggested it make keep the name! Nothing has been lost except the underpinnings that are older than me.

The Zeta, Impala/Caprice whatever, is going to be a real full size car which cannot be said about the current Impala or future Malibu. There is no overlap, just filing the product hole GM has had for ten years.

 

Kinda feels like the situation Caddy's going to have with the new CTS and the STS, only if the STS gets larger it turns into a DTS and Lutz doesn't want cars that compete with other GM cars.

 

A few thoughts.


First, I agree 100% with Josh's post in this instance. He does ask good questions that noone else asks because he's able to step outside the circle and look at the grand scheme of things. Not something you'd expect from someone posting at (or running) an enthusiast's site.

Take the position that General Motors is a business first and foremost. Their entire reason for existing is to make the most money with the least investment and churning out the best product possible. General Motors is selling every Impala they make right now. They are even artificially backing down production to keep prices stable.... down to "only" 250,000 cars annually.



Second, to be perfectly honest about everything, Camaro is 100% safe for one reason, and one reason only. It's an approval that was publically announced and has been amazingly transparent in it's development (most transparently developed car since the Pontiac Solstice). GM's painted itself into a corner with the Camaro to which there's no escape. If it wasn't for that Camaro would be either put on hold as well. GM isn't likely to clear as much on each Camaro as Ford does with the Mustang, so there isn't as much real incentive outside of enthusiasm and momemtum. There were fewer Z28s made in 2001 and 2002 than new GTOs sold in it's worse year, just to give an idea of what type of convincing had to be done.



Finally, one of the things about the internet is the herd mentality and the ripple effect. How one small quote magnifies to the level of a catastrophy and creates a stampede of people running in the wrong direction. Bob Lutz has NEVER.....EVER said that Zeta is cancelled. 2 years ago, he said it was put on hold. A week or so ago, he said the program was "paused". Today, there's word (which is very plausible) that the Impala program is slightly delayed. Yet each time, it's turned into a "doomsday scenario" on the internet.

It hasn't been posted yet as to why Impala is delayed. Perhaps GM wants to bring out all it's sedans at the same time. Perhaps GM decided to add a different volume engine and needs the extra time to certify it. Perhaps GM decided to squeeze another year out of the Impala. Perhaps, like the 4th gen Camaro's late restyled windshield, there's a last minute design revision that requires a structural change.



It's ridiculous for anyone to think even for a moment GM is going to walk away from Zeta. Last year Chrysler sold over 143,500 300s and in excess of 114,000 Chargers. Chrysler has probally just over half to 2/3s the dealers that Chevrolet has, yet (throwing in the 40K Magnums sold last year) they sold nearly 300,000 "volume" rear drive cars"! Although GM's FWD W-body dwarfs that number, it's still a huge and profitable number.

GM's rear drive Zeta program is EXTREMELY important. Not because it wants to keep performance enthusiasts happy, but because these are the "Aspirational Cars" that Lutz, Welburn, and others were talking about some years ago.

The RWD sedans are top model of each brand that sums up what that entire division is all about. They have the latest goodies and technology, performance & ride, and is the car each loyal buyer of that division will buy when they have enough money, or are at the point in life where they can own that car. Think of the old pre-1977 Cadillac Fleetwood, Buick Park Avenue, and Chevrolet Caprice. Add in Northstar II, possible Turbo HF V6s, and the LS3 under the hood depending on division, advanced IRS under the rear end, modern day sizes, and styling that sizes up the entire division's styling history but in a very modern way with a bit of edginess to it.



So next time you hear a Zeta's being "reevaluated", or is on hold, or is being delayed a little, keep in mind that none includes the Camaro, El Camino, or G8. These are locked in. Also, don't believe for a moment the sedans for Chevrolet, Buick, Cadillac are in any real jepordy (they may not be locked in, but the door's barracaded). And don't fall into the belief that at least 1 "big" coupe won't make the cut (it's essentially going to be a LWB Camaro with a very different skin, and cost comparitively pocket change to make).

Keep in mind, Zeta also was seen to spin off wagons, hatchbacks, and also the short wheelbase models were going to be phased in to replace at least a couple of dying W-body midsized cars after 2011. I'd imagine that's where your death blows are going to hit and do the most damage.....

......and give rise to this small RWD Alpha we've been hearing about.

 

What are the chances of this being called Monte Carlo?

 

Guy -- ok, but, you state you agree with where Josh is coming from in one breath and then spend the rest of 9(!) paragraphs explaining how important Zeta is to GM.

If the premise is that getting the Camaro out first is a backwards way of doing things, well then, we might have a discussion. Josh is saying that Camaro should not be built at all, which is an entirely different ball of wax. I can understand why someone would say the higher-volume RWD sedans should take priority over Camaro, and that GM may have done Zeta a bit bass-ackwards by doing the lower-volume Chevy coupe first.

But if, as you say, GM needs to do things with the least investment possible, because I know they are a business first and foremost, Camaro absolutely must be a part of that plan. The investment you're putting into it by placing it on a variation of your upcoming volume RWD platform vs. what you're going to get back out (a rallying-point Chevrolet heritage vehicle) should make the business case pretty dang sound, as long as the car doesn't fall completely on its face. Unless I'm really missing something.

 

I would personally like to see a crossover/wagon take on the Nomad name and the SWB Trailblazer's position in the lineup.

So Guy what are we hearing on the Alpha cars? Is there an actual program running or is it still just being talked about?