Eh, the cladding was gross and in poor taste. Pontiac may have had a core audience that liked it, but it was so unlike every other car on the road that it was polarizing.

Which is not to say that Pontiac shouldn't take a more aggressive look -- there's plenty of tasteful ways to add airdams and body effects and spoilers to a car.

 

I think tasteful should be for Saturn. Pontiac's should scare kids and old ladies.

The G6 is selling well because a) the full line if finally being produced full blast, and b) It has more rental sales than ever. That being said, I am hard pressed to beleive it will ever outsell the old Grand Am. I am also willing to be GM makes less per car on the G6 than the old Grand Am.

 

I always thought the Impala was profitable.

The Firebird made money...we all know why it was cancelled. The Grand Am better have made money seeing as how it was an old platform and they sould a bunch of them. The new Grand Prix would make money if they did not have to give the thing away. Same with the Bonneville. Basically, Pontiac turned down the styling on it's cars, and didn't improve them in any other way, so the customers walked.

 

OK, I can accept that the Firebird and Bonneville were profitable in the actuarial sense -- they were old cars that GM did little advertising for. But they can't keep selling the same car for 10 years -- eventually they have to spend money on refreshing it and with sales off by 70-80%, that's where the unprofitably comes in.

Again, the real problem is the lack of proper long-range planning at GM -- but that was 10 years ago, so what can you do.

 

Sure, the G8 will help...but as Charlie accurately portrayed, it really is all about the G6. The G8 will not add a lot of volume to the lineup. Profitability is important, but street credit is important as well...and Pontiac has virtually none. Street credit will help sell cars, which by default can help make more money.

5 years ago, GTPs were still selling well despite being somewhat aged, Grand Am GTs were being pimped all over my area, and had at least competitive performance to their foreign counterparts, and indeed...we still had the Firebird. Now? Firebird is gone, as is the GTO...Grand Prixs? Other than those fewer than 10% who buy GXPs, who really cares about Grand Prixs? They've become rent-a-sleds. As for G6s, the coupes don't sell well and the performance halo is gone. There's no excitement behind them. I KNOW how much better a G6 is than a Grand Am...I had one, and hated it for all the things that are so much better about the G6. But there's no excitement. NO ad campaign. Nothing but 45% fleet sales.

To those who defend Pontiac, I ask you...does this make sense?

 

Side note:

I saw a G5 last week and didn't know what it was till it drove by. I knew it was a Pontiac from the front...

But I didn't even realize that car was released here yet.....

Have they advertised it all?

 

Another side observation:

It seems we aren’t in total agreement in exactly which direction Pontiac needs to go to be successful again.

I assume we would all agree on the missions of Chevrolet and Cadillac…..

But I get eh feeling that not even the people at Pontiac know the real direction of this brand….

It obviously isn’t what it used to be in the “Glory Days”…..and obviously the brand must adapt and change with the current market and competition.

Instead of arguing product so much, we should step back and define the direction and mission of Pontiac more and design product to fit that.

I don’t think the dealers even know what they are selling anymore……

I even told Scott I don’t really know what a Pontiac is anymore….

This needs to start at the top down with a marketing strategy that is clear to the customer…

THIS IS WHAT A PONTIAC OF TODAY IS, THIS IS THE PRODUCT THAT FITS THAT IMAGE.

 

Its been out for close to a year. As I recall, the marketing plan for it was to do digital media only, no TV or print (nationally). There was an article about it in automotive news some time ago.

Edit-here's an excerpt

 

Brandon I don't know why you think the car needs to be a subcompact. A compact (3 series-G35) sized RWD 4/6 cylinder car would have quite an appeal to many I know, many on this board to be for sure. The 3/G35 are likely a few inches more narrow than the Camaro and likely this chassis will be as well. Think of a slightly smaller current CTS (not the NG wide Sigma CTS).

Since I brought it up look at the CTS as a prime example. By your logic the CTS should have failed. It was a compact sedan w/ low hp. The current base model is the 210 hp 2.8 HF V6. A 200 hp base model 4 clinder and 260+ hp turbo ecotec would certainly have enough performance to equal the current CTS (V6 at 255 hp). Would you consider the current CTS to be a yawner to drive.

 

Is it is almost the same size as the Camaro then what is the point of a whole new platform? I really hope the Camaro is not much larger than a G35, because then it will be too big). just don't see the need for a turbo four cylinder when you can slap an LSx in that is light and gets good gas milage (while being cheaper than the turbo 4). Bring the V8 back to the masses, and it will sell.

I saw a music video that had a black and gold 79 Trans Am in. That car was a slow turd....but had (and still has) an amazing road presence. To me, these are the kind of cars Pontiac needs to get back on the right track. Over the top, in your face designs that make people have feelings about them.

I am willing to bet that if you sent out a survey to Pontiac buyers and asked what they want...a 4 cylinder, RWD sedan will be very low on the list. I would honestly want a properly redesigned FWD Grand Prix, an AWD G6, or hell even a Firebird before this sedan.

 

BMW 3 series
Length: 178.2 in.
Width: 71.5 in.
Height: 55.9 in.
Wheel Base: 108.7 in.

Camaro Concept
Length: 186.2 in
Width: 79.6 in
Height: 53 in
Wheelbase: 110.5 in

We know the production Camaro will likely be a few inches longer, taller, and thinner. It will also weigh closer to 3600 lbs whereas the chassis we are proposing should weigh a few hundred lbs less.

The Alpha chassis will be more narrow and therefore the engine bay will likely be more narrow and may not hold a V8. Also not everyone wants a V8. Lots of people want a gas sipper and w/ CAFE numbers sure to rise this chassis will need to get better numbers to lower the CAFE (so we get cars like the G8 and GTO).

If you see these chassis as being the same size you just aren't getting it.

If we survey only Pontiac buyers Avis and Enterprise will comprise a majority of the surveys. Who cares what they think? Pontiac can't just live in the past and supply cars to its current market base. It needs to expand its target and pull in new buyers, something this chassis would be sure to do. Brandon are you just playing devil's advocate?

 

Pontiac was once a great brand with plenty of loyal buyers. These buyers stopped buying Pontiac because GM gave them unappealing cars. Owners of the last gen Grand Prix did not buy the new one because it is ugly. The G6 cannot pull buyers like the old Grand Am despite being a better car because it is so bland. GM still does not have a car to comepete with the WRX or Evo....the G6 GXP should be this car. It is much easier to bring owners who have bought Pontiac's back in to the fold, then it is to win completely new buyers. Alpha sounds like a way to waste a lot of money filling imaginary demand. Plus, even in a good year, this car will never go over 100,000 unit's sold, and not be very profitable. Something like a proper Grand Prix would sell 150,000+ units and make more money. GM thinks because the current Grand Prix is not selling well, it needs to go, and they need new direction. In reality, it did not sell because it was ugly, quickly dated, and lacked emotion. That does not mean doing a new one the right way is a bad thing.

An LSx engine is just as narrow as any DOHC V6 GM makes, so I am guessing you mean length is the issue? I am not sure how anyone can say the turbo ecotech is lighter, cheaper, or more effiant than an LSx.

 

When I was a kid, I used to collect car brochures. Most of them I still have in boxes at my mother's house. Probally buried. Probally worth alot of money on e-bay.

But one brochure stands out in my mind as EXACTLY what Pontiac is and what it always was in my mind. That was the 1974 PONTIAC brochure.

This was the brochure in which every car was in what seemed to be a dark place with a spotlight on the car and items in the background, almost in the shadows, related to the car.

This was the cover:


The feeling you got from the whole brochure was Pontiac's history, high style, and performance.



Even the economy car of the day carried the same theme:



There is is a picture of a Formula and a Trans Am in what looks to be a garage afterhours, I can't find pics to post.

But to me that is what Pontiac is and should be in minds eye.

 

Umm, Cobalt SS. Besides the G6 is a midsize not compact.

In the US sure the chassis won't top 100k but combined w/ the European and Asian markets I am sure it can without trouble. How many higher priced 3 series does BMW sell? MBs C-class? Infiniti's G35/Skyline?

I really doubt GM will ever be able to sell 150k Grand Prixs in a year ever again. When was the last time it did that? They sell 250k Impalas and they have a MUCH larger dealer network.

I don't say the turbo Ecotec is lighter or cheaper than an LSx variant. But I do think it is more efficient. The engine is physically smaller and makes less power (which means the rest of the drivetrain components don't need to be as heavy duty and this saves weight!) The Ecotec engine is TINY compared to the OHV V8s. Sure the turbo & intercooler add weight but I doubt it is heavier than an aluminum block LSx. As for the DOHC V6, I didn't mention one. I think a proper OHV V6 could do quite well. Besides the original premise for the alpha chassis was Ecotec only. And I doubt anyone would believe the LSx engines are more narrow than an Ecotec. And no I didn't mean length, I mean width. And call me on it if you want but I doubt the HF V6 series is wider than the LSx V8s.

I know it is hard to tell under the covers but here are a shot of each. I think there is more side to side clearence for the V6.

 

None are AWD, which is a big part of the EVO, STI croad


My point is that GM is replacing volume vehicles with ones that sell less, and make less money. Grank Prix alone could do 200,000 units a year if done right.


The sold 106,000 through October of last year.
http://media.gm.com/servlet/GatewayS...=6&docid=30092

So 150,000 to 200,000 is not an unreasonable goal for a Grand Prix if done right. You forget...there are plenty of people who want a large, great performing car, but can't have RWD. This has been their car of choice for years.

We could argue this one all day long. I love the aftermarket and reliability of the LSx engine. The ecotech is a great economy engine...but I really think you will have a hard time selling it in a RWD car. Families won't buy it because they are brainwashed they need FWD, and there are better (cheaper FWD options). Enthusiasts may buy them, but with the G8, GTO, Impala, and Camaro around the corner...I see a 4 cylinder Alpha car as less desirable then all of them.

That is just my opinion. We will know in 5-10 years if I was right