This particular rant has been a long time coming, and Automotive News this week confirmed a painful concept I'd come up with...Pontiac currently is really nothing more than a wholesaler of rental cars and cheap retail sedans. AN claims 44-46% of Pontiac's sales for the first quarter were fleet sales. The article claimed that G6s were beginning to be scarfed up more by rental fleets, as the new '08 Malibu will not be available to them (I figured the current Malibu would keep the fleets happy, but maybe they will not be making enough of them to keep up with rental demand??). Grand Prixs have been at over 60% fleet sales for some time, although I have to say I've been surprised at how many GXPs I've seen as of late.

I've never been without a Camaro for the 10 years I've owned a car, but my heart has always lied with Pontiac. I learned to drive on a '91 Grand Am SE (back when the SE was like a GT) with the H.O. 180hp Quad 4 with a 5 speed, great monochrome styling and 16" wheels when no one had 16s except for muscle cars. Today's G6 4 cylinder doesn't even make 180hp. I rememeber lusting after Fieros when I was a kid (admittedly, the Solstice is more than a worthy successor...), along with the obvious Firebirds. I remember when Pontiac made turbo Sunbirds that had a 0-60 better than the new G5s...and who didn't want a '97 Grand Prix GTP when they debuted??

A Pontiac dealer in the article was quoted as saying how retail sales have dried up horribly, and how the only time you can sell a Grand Prix (which was a dealer's staple for YEARS) is when you give one away. Other than the GTO or Grand Prix GXP, there isn't a single Pontiac offering that remotely interests me anymore...and the GTO is dead. The Solstice is a great car, but a fringe player at best, and too small for most. The advertising they've been doing, with the alternative music and artsy-fartsy backdrops, is pretty putrid IMO. There is simply no life to this division, it appears...and its really getting old.

Pontiac, IMO, should literally copy Mazda. Why is there no 2+2 sports car anymore? Why does the Mazdaspeed 3 show off Mazda's potential, while the G5 shows Pontiac can put a nicer nose on a mid-level Cobalt? Why does the G6 continue to lack AWD and a super/turbo charged motor (BOTH of which were originally Epsilon ideas) that makes more than 256hp? Why was the Grand Prix left to completely wither, with a subpar interior, evolutionary (instead of revolutionary) styling and ZERO ad support, aside from a few GXP print ads?

How is it possible that a small Japanese company is COMPLETELY upstaging GM's "performance" division? Can anyone here tell me that Pontiac has really made ANYTHING truly groundbreaking since the 1997 Grand Prix? The G5 is pretty pointless (a decent car, but adds nothing really over a Cobalt), the G6 sedan has been lackluster since its debut (nice interior, but bland styling and a lack of better engine choices has hurt it), the G6 coupe lacks guts and combines that with a back seat you simply CANNOT get into (and once you're back there, there is ZERO headroom...no wonder this car sells in nowhere near the numbers the Grand Am Coupe did), the Torrent finally got a real engine in time for no one to notice, and the Grand Prix's woes have been well documented here...

That leaves, again, the Solstice. One roadster does not a car lineup make...and something tells me this Alpha chassis will be around in time to put Pontiac in mothballs, when the division is even more irrelevant than it already is.

Personally, I love my Grand Prix...but Pontiac is in deep, deep ****. There are simply no "gotta have it" cars in their lineup (outside of the Solstice), period. What a change from even 10 years ago...

 

I really like the G5, G6 Sedan, and Solstice......thats it. The views I've seen of the G8 do nothing for me, no GTO......I don't see a lot of good coming for Pontiac. I own 3 of them right now....and sadly, I don't see adding anymore to my stable anytime soon.

 

I agree about the Grand Am coupe's roominess. I was able to fit 4 people comfortably. I really think the G6 is a decent enough car though. It could use a sportier model than the GTP (the GXP G6 is a joke). AWD and forced induction would do wonders here. I think the biggest disappointment is the Grand Prix. The styling has never looked good on the new one, and as you mentioned the interior is not even close to being on par with the competition. I really think the G8 will help out alot by simply getting the GP out of the line up.

 

I think you should wait a year and enjoy the pure sex that the G8 will be.

 

Getting in and out of the back seat of a G6 coupe isn't hard, and I'm told that it's easier to do so than it was to get out of the back seat of my sister's old Alero coupe.

The 3.6l engine in the G6 is no slouch, and puts up numbers on the track that can compete with Honda's Accord and the Toyota Camry. It is a case of "just enough", which Pontiac has been famous for doing for the last 2 decades, but it is competitive. I do agree that if they were to turbo/supercharge a G6 engine, and add an AWD option, it would do a lot for Pontiac's image, but what would it do for their sales? I really don't see the G6 selling a lot more if it had those features, and as such, GM has no reason to make those features available.

The G6 GTP is currently selling at about 4-5% of sales overall. I doubt that they're even making money on it.

Comparing Pontiac's lineup to Mazda's isn't exactly the best way of doing things either. I'm willing to bet that Pontiac sells a lot more cars in North America than Mazda does.

The Grand Prix is on it's way out, so I'm not sure why you're ragging on it. It is being replaced by the G8, which is a much nicer car overall. The Grand Prix is in a class that Mazda doesn't even compete in, so that should say something for Pontiac.

 

The way that Pontiac is going, it WON'T outsell Mazda if it keeps up! Remember, Pontiac has way more, zero profit rental sales than Mazda...those #s are sorely inflated. Add in the fact that there are far more Pontiac dealers than there are Mazda dealers, and the situation becomes even more compounded. Pontiac should be blowing Mazda's doors off in sales simply by having a larger dealer network...but on a retail basis? I doubt it.

I know the GP is on its way out, and I'm not completely ragging on it...I own one. But they did let the car down in a pretty big way. I love mine, but the interior wasn't even acceptable in '04, let alone now. I bought it because I love the engine, love the features, love the handling, and used they're cheap because, well, they're a Grand Prix. I think in black its a sinister looking car, but in other colors, the style leaves me a little cold. The G8 is far better, but it isn't a VOLUME seller. RWD and a max capacity of 40,000 or so a year is not going to be the success Pontiac needs. Pontiac used to be a VOLUME division, and it could be again with the right mix of products. It simply lacks that.

As for getting in and out of the back of an Alero versus a G6, I can ASSURE you the N body coupes were WAY easier than the G6s. I owned an '02 Grand Am GT coupe and sold them for 6 years...getting in and out was relatively easy. With the G6, its more of a struggle to get back there because of the door opening, then once you are?? Hell, I'm only 5 foot 6 and my head hits the headliner!!!! Never an issue like that in an Alero or Grand Am coupe...

All I'm saying is that Pontiac used to have a cache that is completely non-existant today, in the showroom and on the street...and that is due to product that is pretty forgettable. Hey, I love the G6 coupe and the GXP GP...

But how many are on the streets? How much does the public care about either one??? That's my point. Pontiac has made itself irrelevant due to lack of commitment from GM to exciting product, superior design and better advertising. What has the WRX done for Subaru? What would Mitsu have without the EVO and Eclipse? What would Mazda have without the Zoom Zoom ads?

That's what I'm talking about. Pontiac competes for the same market as all these cars...and hasn't made a dent with any of them...

 

 

G8 is the best thing Pontiac will have coming of interest to us in the coming years... and with the recent annoucement of the hold on RWD... I dont expect a next gen GTO in the foreseeable future, if at all.

 

It's a huge understatement to say that I'm not a big fan of Pontiac post ~1970. (mostly )

But, it seems like the G6 should be doing better. The interior is cheap, but not absolutely terrible. And the exterior is very nice -- similar to the Accord. I don't know if it's advertising or what.

Anyway, looks like the G8 will be a great car, but I'm very worried it will be DOA just because it's at Pontiac.

 

2 things.

I own a Solstice and I can say that Pontiac IS a great brand to have. The Solstice is a phenomenal vehicle and the only problem GM made with it is that here was not a coupe to go with it. Kappa is GREAT and the Solstice gets look here in Metro-Detroit that it is a $40,000 car.

There's a reason why www.solsticeforum.com is a popular site.

Second on the G8....I hope to address that with some hands on with it. I was at the debut in Chicago at the Chicago Auto Show at McCormick and......the car is gorgeous don't get me me wrong but..we'll see soon enough. I think the car will do well...better then GTO because it is "all new" and does not carry the baggage of a different historical name. G8 will do very well.

 

Pontiac is on life support until the G8 (& its replacement) and the Alpha cars arrive. Only then can we see if GM's performance brand has a future as a true performance brand. I give it until 2012 before I would call Pontiac performance in every model.

 

First off, congrats on getting a 04 GTP. I love mine. I'm not sure what you mean by 'acceptable' interior. Mine 04's interior is MUCH improved over the 98 GTP's interior I had before that. The seats - vastly improved. HUD (heck even HAVING a HUD) - improved with XM integration. Interior fit/finish - much better, witness the flush-fit IP components like the HVAC/stereo stack. Ergonomics - better (eg, TAPShift). I could go on and on. The interior was a major reason why I upgraded.

The whole theme of your postings in this thread though, seems to be "oh I'm so disappointed with Pontiac! They don't have much to offer, when you exclude the GTO, GP GXP, G6 GTP coupe, Solstice, Solstice GXP and upcoming G8!"

Why is it so important to some that Pontiac move all this volume? Business is about PROFIT not revenue. Cars are not gallons of milk. If Pontiac continues to make designs like the above, they'll be fine.

One other thing. Pontiac is not a division. It's Pontiac-GMC. And that division seems to be doing pretty well. So enough of the hand wringing already.

 

There isn't any money to fix Pontiac

 

I tend to agree with you.

When I sat down with Scott Settlemire over a year ago I actually asked him what he would do if he was running Pontiac and while he did give me a bit of the corporate lingo (not really answering my question directly), he did mention the Pontiac-GMC division union and how profit is more important that volume.

That said, we know performance models don't carry a brand. And don't cite the SS Camaros in the end of the 4th gen run, that was a bit of an anomaly.

I think Pontiac needs to continue to focus on a cool image that differentiates them from the competition. Not just straight up performance.

I think the G5 is pointless obviously because of the Cobalt, but Ive been told its just a hold over car to keep the dealerships happy.

I think the G6 is a step in the right direction in my opinion. But here more than anything they need to let the customer know why this car is better than the competition. If anything I think its the "feel good" advertising that GM loves to throw around thats letting this car down.

I also feel bad that the Grand Prix didn't get as much love as it should have these last few years. But the G8 is the perfect example of where Pontiac's products need to be int he future. Good performers with flashy style.

I think its too bad the GTO will probably not return, but the dealerships killed this car.......and we all know where that conversation goes...

The Solstice is perfect for what it does.

The Torrent should go as well as the Vibe......I don't see the point of these products just like the hold over G5.

Pontiac doesn't need SUVs or a Van ever again. Let GMC sell the SUVs.

But again I think Pontiac is moving in the right direction. If we are still having this conversation in 5 years then, yeah....Pontiac may be in trouble.

 

Pontiac and Buick should just be merged under the Saturn brand. This way GM doesn't have to kill off it's existing dealer network and the ability to service all those cars those dealers have sold over the decades. It would also be a quick way to double/triple Saturn's distribution network and the Pontiac G8 could easily be made into a Saturn by 2012 as well as one or two top selling Buick models that are worth keeping.

Im sure GM is tracking how well the Saturn Sky does compared to the Solstice to see if Saturn can be accepted as a performance brand over time.