A workable & practical way of getting a Camaro to market quickly & cheaply!
03-29-2005, 11:00 PM
#16
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Re: A workable & practical way of getting a Camaro to market quickly & cheaply!
This is a non-starter......it would be the ultimate admission of failure.
Magazines and the press would ALL point and laugh.....while saying that GM basically brought back a 25 year old chassis.
No thanks.......do it right or don't do it at all.....I sure as hell wouldn't buy such a compromised car.......
Magazines and the press would ALL point and laugh.....while saying that GM basically brought back a 25 year old chassis.
No thanks.......do it right or don't do it at all.....I sure as hell wouldn't buy such a compromised car.......
03-29-2005, 11:21 PM
#17
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Re: A workable & practical way of getting a Camaro to market quickly & cheaply!
Yea. Uh Huh Guy you know what's going on buddyy. Evok does know what's going on. Guy...check out the Underground (now......umm Offground due to legalities I think).
03-30-2005, 02:42 AM
#19
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Re: A workable & practical way of getting a Camaro to market quickly & cheaply!
Originally Posted by dav305z
It sounds cheap. It sounds a little rough around the edges. In other words it sounds like a Camaro 
.
This is exactly what we need. We don't need a perfected uber coupe that costs $30,000. We need a car that provides everything the performance entusiast needs, and nothing they don't. As far as performance goes, the setup described would wipe the floor with any prior Camaro.
As far as refinement goes, it'll have more than enough. Sure, the Cobalt has quiet steel for the same price - but it doesn't have a big V6 or V8. It will be better to ride in than the 4th gen simply because even the cheapest stuff from GM's interior parts bin is much nicer than the crap that went inside the 4th gen.
Build this GM. Take a damn risk for once and it just might pay off.
Guy, is what evok describes more or less the "sport bike" scenario?
.This is exactly what we need. We don't need a perfected uber coupe that costs $30,000. We need a car that provides everything the performance entusiast needs, and nothing they don't. As far as performance goes, the setup described would wipe the floor with any prior Camaro.
As far as refinement goes, it'll have more than enough. Sure, the Cobalt has quiet steel for the same price - but it doesn't have a big V6 or V8. It will be better to ride in than the 4th gen simply because even the cheapest stuff from GM's interior parts bin is much nicer than the crap that went inside the 4th gen.
Build this GM. Take a damn risk for once and it just might pay off.
Guy, is what evok describes more or less the "sport bike" scenario?
03-30-2005, 02:46 AM
#20
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Re: A workable & practical way of getting a Camaro to market quickly & cheaply!
Originally Posted by eagleknight97
Wouldnt adding a Live rear axle to a platform designed to use an IRS add cost, not subtract it? Plus, isnt the rear in the CTS-V already designed for 400hp?
03-30-2005, 02:49 AM
#21
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Re: A workable & practical way of getting a Camaro to market quickly & cheaply!
Originally Posted by Doug Harden
This is a non-starter......it would be the ultimate admission of failure.
Magazines and the press would ALL point and laugh.....while saying that GM basically brought back a 25 year old chassis.
No thanks.......do it right or don't do it at all.....I sure as hell wouldn't buy such a compromised car.......
Magazines and the press would ALL point and laugh.....while saying that GM basically brought back a 25 year old chassis.
No thanks.......do it right or don't do it at all.....I sure as hell wouldn't buy such a compromised car.......
I thought Sigma was only a few years old? 25 years old? Has the CTS even been around 5 years yet? What do you mean?
03-30-2005, 05:36 AM
#23
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Re: A workable & practical way of getting a Camaro to market quickly & cheaply!
NO SOLID AXLE!
I have owned and driven various Camaros for nearly 20 years now. I am and always have been a GM guy. I want a new Camaro as much as anybody.
I WILL NOT BUY ANOTHER CAMARO WITH A SOLID AXLE.
I have owned and driven various Camaros for nearly 20 years now. I am and always have been a GM guy. I want a new Camaro as much as anybody.
I WILL NOT BUY ANOTHER CAMARO WITH A SOLID AXLE.
03-30-2005, 05:51 AM
#24
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Re: A workable & practical way of getting a Camaro to market quickly & cheaply!
Originally Posted by Doug Harden
This is a non-starter......it would be the ultimate admission of failure.
Magazines and the press would ALL point and laugh.....while saying that GM basically brought back a 25 year old chassis.
No thanks.......do it right or don't do it at all.....I sure as hell wouldn't buy such a compromised car.......
Magazines and the press would ALL point and laugh.....while saying that GM basically brought back a 25 year old chassis.
No thanks.......do it right or don't do it at all.....I sure as hell wouldn't buy such a compromised car.......
I pretty much agree. It has worked for Mustang but that is because it has been ingrained in a lot of people's heads that Mustang can do no wrong. Yes, I believe this. I'd rather not see a Mexican-built Camaro either.
Call me stuck-up but I'd much rather hold out a little longer for a world-class effort than "ok here is your new Camaro, whatever, now you people can go away."
Last edited by Z28Wilson; 03-30-2005 at 05:59 AM.
03-30-2005, 06:05 AM
#25
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Re: A workable & practical way of getting a Camaro to market quickly & cheaply!
I agree to an extent but people tend to forget that that's almost exactly how the 1st Gen came about. It was a last sec thing that became something really good.
I'd rather have an all-new Camaro that makes the M*stang look like a complete piece in every way but I'd be OK with a comparably built car that still had more attention to detail and was more performance focused I guess you could say. We NEED SOMETHING people, the wait is crazy already. GM needs an affordable performance car that can compete with the M*stang and anything from Chrysler, what they need is the Camaro. Even if just for a few years until it can be done better.
I'd rather have an all-new Camaro that makes the M*stang look like a complete piece in every way but I'd be OK with a comparably built car that still had more attention to detail and was more performance focused I guess you could say. We NEED SOMETHING people, the wait is crazy already. GM needs an affordable performance car that can compete with the M*stang and anything from Chrysler, what they need is the Camaro. Even if just for a few years until it can be done better.
03-30-2005, 07:26 AM
#26
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Re: A workable & practical way of getting a Camaro to market quickly & cheaply!
I'm not much on the M-strut idea either, sounds like a step back.
I wonder what the rest of the buying public (not us enthusiast) think about the IRS vs. live axle debate.
Personally, I'd rather have IRS. But I'm not in to drag racing like most here are.
All and all, it sound pretty good, but what are the chances of it happening anywhere close to that, if at all?
I wonder what the rest of the buying public (not us enthusiast) think about the IRS vs. live axle debate.
Personally, I'd rather have IRS. But I'm not in to drag racing like most here are.
All and all, it sound pretty good, but what are the chances of it happening anywhere close to that, if at all?
03-30-2005, 07:28 AM
#27
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Re: A workable & practical way of getting a Camaro to market quickly & cheaply!
I think the Live Rear should be an option.
An option that will probably DROP the price. It should. It cuts refinement for pure speed. Also though the press will **** at that, do something silly at the same time. Like offer a gear ratio change as well. The guys with the IRS get 3.42's and the Live guys get 3.42's OR 3.73's. Something like that. Why? That would take some of the heat off the press about the live rear axle. Some would say it was just a cover up, but some of the press might swallow that it was more for the "drag racing type". Let that stigma form all you want.
Otherwise I totally agree... and totally disagree.
Offering a great interior and ride is important, as is fit and finish. Yes, GM's current "parts bin" stuff IS better then the 4th gen. That's very true. However true that is though, this "parts bin Camaro" cant have too much feel of it. It needs to compete with the mustang. So compete it against the mustang!!! Everything must meet the mustang standards in every way. No way around that. It'd be nice to be better, but that would take longer and drive up cost.
On launch they need something stupid. Again, back to the parts bin. If rumors of testing a CTS "Super V" with the LS7 are true (or if not, I dont care) get the engine bolted to a tranny and slap a rear on it. The LS7 will fit where the LS2 will. DO IT. The enthusiast is pissed off enough as is. We know this very well. So slap a 427 sticker on the side, yank the ECU out of the Z06 and drop her all in there. Rig it with as much power as team corvette will allow (I'm thinking 450hp to look even with the new GT500) and slap a window sticker on her and show her at the car show.
I think the 427 would be about as good an image as you can give to the Camaro. It never was the prettiest car, but it always had gusto. Slapping a new camaro on the showroom floor with the 427 would be cheap and fast. Faster then the base Vette in a straight line I hope. Cause that's too bad. It wont turn nearly as well or ride nearly as well, or look as smooth. Rolling out it would atleast show your average enthusiast and gearhead that somewhere, someone in Chevrolet still cared.
Parts bin? Yes. Cheap? Yes. Get a LS2 under the hood and get it cheaper then the mustang by $2000. If they can do that, they might have it made. The camaro was too expensive by several thousand dollars in the 4th gen era. Cant make that mistake again...
The average consumer will want an IRS. That's just how it is. Will they swallow a Solid in a Mustang? Sure. In a Camaro? Nope. Sucks to be the bow tie boy. Oh well. IRS standard. Thats the only way you'll still be able to offer a Solid and not REALLY **** off the press.
Again, IRS standard, Solid Rear as an option that drops the price for "all out straight line performance"... Sell it that way. The press might actually swallow it.
GM once had an ad (I've been trying to find an original and have it framed) of a lady in a barn between a camaro and a corvette. "We'll take on any two other cars in this magazine". They need marketing. They need cheap and fast. If it's only as refined (or slightly less) then the cobalt, so be it. It never was a really "nice" car.
EDIT: Marketing will be uber-important. Notice how well it payed off for the 2005 Mustang. Though I'd say take a different aspect. What about this.
If they went with styling like Kris Horton... Something... Take a 1st gen black Z28 camaro. Show it rolling into a garage to a long into riff of some song. Elapse time to show several seasons go by (or a few winters) while thats going and have air wrench noises in the backround. Just misc noise. Then it turns spring, the garage door starts opening, and the music kicks up, the new 5th gen rolls out and the announcer says "it took us a while, but we're back and better then ever". I'd say have it "growl" as a mustang drove by, but they cant do that.
The music needs to be something really catchy. Something honestly a "mullet" would love. The Camaro is the mulletmobile, isnt it?
I'd say "Back in Black" by ACDC. But thats just me. Perhaps "Born in the USA"? You get the idea. The Camaro was made to follow the Mustang and its time to do it again. The press may whine, but if it sells, it sells.
... "The all new Camaro. Mullet refined." "The all new Camaro, mullet not required" have fun with it....
And I hate the "parts bin" idea too, but waiting another 3-4 years is NOT an option.
An option that will probably DROP the price. It should. It cuts refinement for pure speed. Also though the press will **** at that, do something silly at the same time. Like offer a gear ratio change as well. The guys with the IRS get 3.42's and the Live guys get 3.42's OR 3.73's. Something like that. Why? That would take some of the heat off the press about the live rear axle. Some would say it was just a cover up, but some of the press might swallow that it was more for the "drag racing type". Let that stigma form all you want.
Otherwise I totally agree... and totally disagree.
Offering a great interior and ride is important, as is fit and finish. Yes, GM's current "parts bin" stuff IS better then the 4th gen. That's very true. However true that is though, this "parts bin Camaro" cant have too much feel of it. It needs to compete with the mustang. So compete it against the mustang!!! Everything must meet the mustang standards in every way. No way around that. It'd be nice to be better, but that would take longer and drive up cost.
On launch they need something stupid. Again, back to the parts bin. If rumors of testing a CTS "Super V" with the LS7 are true (or if not, I dont care) get the engine bolted to a tranny and slap a rear on it. The LS7 will fit where the LS2 will. DO IT. The enthusiast is pissed off enough as is. We know this very well. So slap a 427 sticker on the side, yank the ECU out of the Z06 and drop her all in there. Rig it with as much power as team corvette will allow (I'm thinking 450hp to look even with the new GT500) and slap a window sticker on her and show her at the car show.
I think the 427 would be about as good an image as you can give to the Camaro. It never was the prettiest car, but it always had gusto. Slapping a new camaro on the showroom floor with the 427 would be cheap and fast. Faster then the base Vette in a straight line I hope. Cause that's too bad. It wont turn nearly as well or ride nearly as well, or look as smooth. Rolling out it would atleast show your average enthusiast and gearhead that somewhere, someone in Chevrolet still cared.
Parts bin? Yes. Cheap? Yes. Get a LS2 under the hood and get it cheaper then the mustang by $2000. If they can do that, they might have it made. The camaro was too expensive by several thousand dollars in the 4th gen era. Cant make that mistake again...
The average consumer will want an IRS. That's just how it is. Will they swallow a Solid in a Mustang? Sure. In a Camaro? Nope. Sucks to be the bow tie boy. Oh well. IRS standard. Thats the only way you'll still be able to offer a Solid and not REALLY **** off the press.
Again, IRS standard, Solid Rear as an option that drops the price for "all out straight line performance"... Sell it that way. The press might actually swallow it.
GM once had an ad (I've been trying to find an original and have it framed) of a lady in a barn between a camaro and a corvette. "We'll take on any two other cars in this magazine". They need marketing. They need cheap and fast. If it's only as refined (or slightly less) then the cobalt, so be it. It never was a really "nice" car.
EDIT: Marketing will be uber-important. Notice how well it payed off for the 2005 Mustang. Though I'd say take a different aspect. What about this.
If they went with styling like Kris Horton... Something... Take a 1st gen black Z28 camaro. Show it rolling into a garage to a long into riff of some song. Elapse time to show several seasons go by (or a few winters) while thats going and have air wrench noises in the backround. Just misc noise. Then it turns spring, the garage door starts opening, and the music kicks up, the new 5th gen rolls out and the announcer says "it took us a while, but we're back and better then ever". I'd say have it "growl" as a mustang drove by, but they cant do that.
The music needs to be something really catchy. Something honestly a "mullet" would love. The Camaro is the mulletmobile, isnt it?
I'd say "Back in Black" by ACDC. But thats just me. Perhaps "Born in the USA"? You get the idea. The Camaro was made to follow the Mustang and its time to do it again. The press may whine, but if it sells, it sells.
... "The all new Camaro. Mullet refined." "The all new Camaro, mullet not required" have fun with it....
And I hate the "parts bin" idea too, but waiting another 3-4 years is NOT an option.
Last edited by Geoff Chadwick; 03-30-2005 at 07:43 AM.
03-30-2005, 07:31 AM
#28
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Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Yadkinville, NC USA
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Re: A workable & practical way of getting a Camaro to market quickly & cheaply!
Originally Posted by Big Als Z
Mustang's chassis is much removed from DEW. WAY removed.
You are the first to point out that "oversight" by EVOK.
The only thing common between the DEW platform and the DC2 (which S197 is built on) is the floor pan stampings. Ford actually spent considerable time and money developing a totally new platform JUST for the Mustang, one that offered the right handling, NVH, wheelbase (MUCH different than DEW), and flexibility for manufacturing (i.e. ridgidity for the convertible, live axle or IRS rear, and engine/drivetrain loading from the bottom of the car instead of the top, etc.). In fact, the DC2 platform was designed with more components similar to the Mazda 6 than the Lincoln LS, and the platform was designed with specific concessions to be run at the Auto Alliance facility.
While I totally agree that GM could raid a parts bin and come up with a competitive Camaro on the cheap (heck, the old LS1 is a stout beginning in it's own rights!), I don't think it is wise to "undersell" the amount of development that was just put into the Mustang's platform. It is certainly not a "close resemblance" of DEW.
Likewise, I think there could be considerable risk in "screwing up" the nameplate of the Camaro if the effort to keep it cheap became readily visible to the consumer. Maybe we should differentiate "cheap" from "low-cost"?
Last edited by ProudPony; 03-30-2005 at 07:46 AM.
03-30-2005, 07:44 AM
#30
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Re: A workable & practical way of getting a Camaro to market quickly & cheaply!
As much as I want to see a new Camaro come to the market quickly, I want the car to be assembled in a efficient manner with high quality. Removing things like quiet steel and other items that attract people to a car such as the Mustang will only bring us back to the failure of the 4th Gen to sell when put up against the bargain price of the Stang.
When somone sits in this new corner cutter Camaro and test drives it and hears a ton of road noise, notices some things they dont like but could possibly live with, then sits in a New Mustang with the creature comforts, they are 9 times out of 10 more likely NOT to come back to the Camaro.
Like mentioned earlier in the thread, produce a quality car up to the mustang standards. There are plenty of resources available already in the parts bin to make the car with.
However, lets not cut corners and cheapen the car overall, or we will quickly be bitching again about GM killing the Camaro for building a cheap car that wouldnt sell after we bitched at them to build a cheap car. We would only be continuing a viscious cycle again, and imagine the already bias media salivating uncontrollaby to once more declare the death of the Camaro as they cream in thier pants as a domestic manufacturer screws it up yet again.
Also, building the car in Mexico=Bad Idea. It makes sense from a financial standpoint, but I can see the backlash already when enthusiasts and automotive press get a whiff of that and begin roasting GM over that because another American Icon car is outsourced outside of North America. Look at the flack they've caught from importing the GTO from Austrailia although it was a smart move IMHO.
Build the car right this time. Build the car efficiently this time. Build the damn car correctly this time and make sure the damn dealers dont mark the SOB up 10k from the MSRP.
Oh, one more thing, put a bullet in the beancounters calculators and accounting software and kick their tails to the curb. Put someone in charge of the company for once who has final say.
When somone sits in this new corner cutter Camaro and test drives it and hears a ton of road noise, notices some things they dont like but could possibly live with, then sits in a New Mustang with the creature comforts, they are 9 times out of 10 more likely NOT to come back to the Camaro.
Like mentioned earlier in the thread, produce a quality car up to the mustang standards. There are plenty of resources available already in the parts bin to make the car with.
However, lets not cut corners and cheapen the car overall, or we will quickly be bitching again about GM killing the Camaro for building a cheap car that wouldnt sell after we bitched at them to build a cheap car. We would only be continuing a viscious cycle again, and imagine the already bias media salivating uncontrollaby to once more declare the death of the Camaro as they cream in thier pants as a domestic manufacturer screws it up yet again.
Also, building the car in Mexico=Bad Idea. It makes sense from a financial standpoint, but I can see the backlash already when enthusiasts and automotive press get a whiff of that and begin roasting GM over that because another American Icon car is outsourced outside of North America. Look at the flack they've caught from importing the GTO from Austrailia although it was a smart move IMHO.
Build the car right this time. Build the car efficiently this time. Build the damn car correctly this time and make sure the damn dealers dont mark the SOB up 10k from the MSRP.
Oh, one more thing, put a bullet in the beancounters calculators and accounting software and kick their tails to the curb. Put someone in charge of the company for once who has final say.
Last edited by Brandon_Lutz; 03-30-2005 at 07:48 AM.