your example proves that an enthusiast likes his car. i'm sure the same exact thing has been posted on this vary forum about an f-body.

its a shame GM drove saturn into the ground

 

Since you seem to have missed this, I'm going to quote myself.

So guess what? We're only dealing with 9 freakin' percent of car buyers who will only buy a foreign car. That IS NOT a valid reason why US automakers are getting their butts kicked - IT'S AN EXCUSE!

Guess what? That sounds an AWFUL lot like my TA. It has the mileage of a 5 year-old car, and it's had most of the problems you mentioned above AND THEN SOME. Do you want to know something else? I LOVE THE CAR, yet it's an absolute piece of crap! If I didn't love it, I would've (A) sold the car; or (B) driven it off the nearest cliff a very long time ago. Yet did that stop me from looking at and test driving the trucks that GM, Ford, Dodge, Nissan, Toyota, and Honda offered before buying what I bought? Nope. Again, you're dealing with 9 stinkin' percent; the way you people talk you'd think they were dealing with 90%.

 

What if the government gave some kind of a tax deduction ($1000?) for buying a car made by a US company...under the idea that increasing sales of US automakers prevents the government from having to take over the pension funds some day. Also increased sales would mean more taxes paid by the US companies when they become more profitable.

Again..Toyota, Honda, and whoever will whine it is not fair...but neither are the tax breaks they get on their non unionized US factories..and the fact that Japanese government makes it impossible to sell US cars there.

 

I have made some of these points before and been blasted for it! I agree, and on the article, great read. I also believe there are people in this country and abroad that would like very much to bankrupt this country. And that they have specifically targeted the big 3 for many years, to acheive that end result. It's been very clear to me, yet so many Americans don't seem to get it!! Wise up folks....wise up, before it's too friggin' late!!! Are there no lawyers out there who happen to also be GM fans. I'd say there is a clear case against CR, admitedly lying to the folks. BTW Scott, I'd be glad to testify in a court of law, being a longtime GM fan who has noticed what's been put into print over the years regarding the big 3, NOT only by CR but other members of the press as well. And how it has hurt not just the big 3, but the American economy...I have been bitchin' about this for quite a while now, as many of you well know. This goes back to before I ever even had a computer. Back when I was a teen even, IIRC someone had gotten me a subscription for Christmas. Just the whole way they spoke about the American brands, IF you had any kind of love for the big 3, which ever brand you favored, you knew they had none!

 

I could become a very rich man if I could figure out a way to harness the energy diverted toward beating dead horses in this thread. And with such enthusiasm too...

Yes, most products from the 70's to the 90's left plenty to be desired. Yes, the unions took, and take, too much from the bottom line. And yes, it's entirely possible that even without legacy costs or a number of other things they still would have dug this whole. However, that's really immaterial at this point.

Maybe a bad opti caused someone to miss prom, anniversary, million dollar job, whatever and they've got a grudge. But deserved or not, long time coming or not, putting almost a tenth of the US workforce in jeopardy would be an immense amount of no fun. I don't know what to say about anyone who can't see that.

 

I cannot understand why some people refuse to see this!! Perhaps some of yall are among this group, that wants to bankrupt this country, by putting the big 3 out of business. I have to believe that is it. I have said this was coming......now it's upon US. Mr.Good Dr. I also don't see how with a PHD you are NOT already rich. Most of the Dr's I know are....maybe you're doing something wrong!!

 

Yeah, it's strange coming to grips with it all. Being a GM lover, it kinda feels like part of me is dying inside, such is my emotional attachment. It's an uncomfortable feeling, contemplating that a love of mine could be no more.

 

I'll be your assistant scott, i'll work for cheap too

 

Guess what? You glossed over the quoted post so thoroughly that you felt it necessary to make the point that said post had already made.

 

Maybe you might want to re-read the posts, because our points are definitely not the same.

 

I'd bet there are a *lot* of people that would apply if Scott had such a position open.

The consumer knows what it wants, and the consumer may just buy whatever it wants despite economic concerns. The downside of free-market capitalism. It has obliterated many domestic industries and given them to China alone.

I wonder what would happen if Walmart decided to phase to "only made in the USA goods" over a 2 year period. Sure prices would go up, but the positive ramifications would be incredible.

 

You nail a point that I don't think a few people see.

I've gotten 200K+ miles out of all 3 of my Thunderbird SC. My '85 5.0 had 225K on it when I finally sold it. My '97 Z28 was sold at 145K miles. My current 2002 B4C has just turned over 185K miles. Try that with Japanese cars while simply doing scheduled oil, sparkplug, and coolant changes.

There is no doubt whatsoever that US cars last longer.

But there is still that bewildering tendancy of simply not understanding why the failure of little things can turn someone against not just a car, but an entire car company.

My sister turned against Ford based on her dealer experience in getting her coolling fan replaced. This involved Ford's "bearing" issue. She paid to fix it. When recalled, she wasn't reimbursed. After that, every little thing that went wrong was because of Ford, not because of normal wear & tear.

My 97 Z28 had a very strong engine. Never used a drop of oil even at over 140K miles. The 4th gen Camaro was structually a tank (as anyone who's seen one cut up can attest to). It's relatively comfortable (once you manage to drop down into one), and it's HACV system as well as it's stereo seem to generally last the life of the car.

BUT.....

Why is it that I had to replace the power window motors multiple times in both Camaros I've owned?

Why when I bring up the fact my LS1 B4C clatters like a diesel when cold, it's brushed off by GM people with a "it's harmless" or "it's normal"?

Why ofd all the cars I've owned that were manual, only my '97 Z28 "ate" 2 clutches while none of my Fords even needed to have it's manual replaced the entire time I owned those cars... a feat even my '78 Chevy Monza matched?

Why did the triming suddenly decide to separate from the door on my '97?

What was with the rattles inside my almost new '97 till I tapped the passenger seat ****, and did a simple fix to the back hatch?

Why when I brought up some of these concerns, the reply was "some things were meant to break"?

Now.... imagine if instead of me, a regular, run of the mill customer experienced just a couple of these instances while at the same time being told that Japaneese cars had better quality?

Stories of a 250K mile Lumina wouldn't matter. Nor would any mileage story or antidotes about what so-and-so's car did.

What really matters is the simple stuff, and that's what I really don't think many people within GM realize. It's not about facts and figures, or charts, or studies. If a stereo **** pops off over a bump, if a power window motor conks out in the rain, if there's a mysterious rattle developing when the car's still fairly new, if you're looking at a gap or grossly misaligned seam in the interior, it doesn't matter what you say or do, you will still be seen as making inferior products!!

I've had the fortune of spending time in Japan, and understand the difference between their cars and the US. In Japan, taxes and registration costs go up as cars age, so the economy is tilted towards buying new cars over holding on to older models. As a result, Japanese engineer their cars to be flawless out the box at the expense of longevity. Here in the US, we keep our cars longer and drive them much farther than the Japanese do. So our emphasis is on longevity over initial percieved quality. Over the years, Japanese makers have made strives towards making cars last longer and reducing the maintence in achieving this.

But it seems that with GM (Ford seems to have a lock on this now as does) the idea still is with facts and figures, not the basics and simple items.

Does Ford really make vehicles that are far superior in quality than GM? I doubt it. But Ford managed to get the simple stuff right, and that apparently is why they are right up there with Toyota and Honda in quality.

Stories of high mileage and studies are wonderful. But if you can't make a simple power window motor that works, you really can't complain that the public isn't quite picking up the improved quality idea.

It's being ignored because..... hello, McFly?..... it isn't an issue.

Union membership is a mere fraction of what it was in the 1990s let alone the 1970s. The items you talk about regarding the union date back to agreements made in the 1970s. In the 80s Roger Smith though nothing of laying off autoworkers and playing hardball with the union. He also was a leader in vastly automating assembly lines. GM is obliged to continue paying pensions under old contracts just like every other carmaker or industry that has a union.

Modern issues have been work rules and pay scales. The Unions have given up alot on pay scales over the past decade. They finally started backing down on workrules years ago. Last year, they agreed to take on the responsibility of admistering their own health care coverage which was up till then, the biggest burden by far on the auto industry. They also liberalized the ability of car makers to shut down plants.

US unionized plants are now competitive with nonunionized plants in labor costs.

Today, there is no issue regarding union with the auto industry except for those who haven't been keeping up on things or are still buying into the 1980s argument that unions are the cause of every problem in the auto industry.

Those payments for life you bring up has a name. It's called Pensions. Every large company has that for it's long term permanent employees when they retire.

You seem to be fixated on unions as the cause or even a major factor in the downfall of the US auto industry. Currently, of all the 1st world nations, the United States is the cheapest place to make a car.

Yes, we are not dwelling on the burden of the unions here.....

..... because it's a non issue.

Tax breaks are the same as increased spending. That's the same as the government giving everyone who buys a US made car a check for $1000. As with every government giveaway, unless someone else pays more to make up for it, it just adds to the deficit.

Final point, and someone else mentioned it, people who buy imports aren't convinced (as a group) than American cars are better. If a car maker offering $2,000, $3,000, or even in some instances, $5,000 in rebates don't change that opinion, one really has to ask themselves is $1,000 going to make a difference as well.

Think of it as this: Is $1000 going to make you buy a Prius over a Malibu?

Same thing. Same mindset.

 

well then I call dibs

 

This portion is spot on in my opinion.

 

Yep. Especially the part about the manufacturer/dealer experience.

Last year, my aunt was moving from Washington state to Ohio to be closer to her family because my uncle had just died of cancer. Instead of driving her Pontiac Vibe with 80-something-thousand miles on it, she decides to buy a new car, a Mercury Mariner. It was really nice; had all the bells and whistles and she was ready for an uneventful trip - or so she thought.....

She gets to Wyoming and the d@mn thing breaks down on her; the transmission went out on it with barely 1000 miles on the odometer. She gets it towed to the nearest Ford dealer and they said it would take a week to fix. OK.....so she's supposed to stay in a hotel and wait? Oh yeah, she is supposed to be in Ohio in 3 days to close on a house. What does Ford do to accomodate her? NOTHING! They basically told her tough $h!t, and they wouldn't even give her a loaner or reimburse her for a rental to continue her trip.

Anyway, here comes the dealership she bought the car from to save the day. This is some above-and-beyond stuff that I almost can't believe. The dealer she bought from (the name of the place is Uhlmann Motors in Chehalis, WA by the way) sells Ford/Lincoln/Mercury and Toyota/Lexus/Scion across the street. This is what the dealer did for her:
1. Paid for her to get a rental to make the rest of her trip.
2. When her Mariner was done getting fixed, flew a representative from the dealership to Wyoming, who drove her Mariner to Ohio and delivered it.

Ford had a chance to be a real hero and do the right thing, but dropped the ball on top of building a lemon. The dealer stepped in and saved the day for a person who might not even set foot back there again. Judging from that experience and saying she moved back, obviously she wouldn't hesitate to buy from that dealer again, but do you really think she would buy a Ford product?