Anasazi......you miss the point.....there is NO "ONE" reason we find ourselves in this situation.

You wrote:

"......but but but if you don't buy domestic then people will be out of a job
that is always my favorite appeal that pops up every once and awhile, you should buy domestic because of jobs... screw the past 25+ years, they don't count.

this has been a long time coming and only the companies are to blame, not the consumer. "


FACT: if you continue to buy Foreign - people WILL be out of a job. Don't blame me -- I didn't make up that fact.....

FACT: it isn't only the companies to blame - there is lots of blame to go around.

Question: how old are you? I ask because I"m wondering if you remember the problems that the Foreign manufacturers (such as Toyota and Datsun) had in the 60s and 70s? Their cars deteriorated at an alarming rate -- I distinctly recall a Datsun dealership (for those of you 'yunguns.....Datsun is what Nissan was branded until -- as I recall the early 80s....) that had a few Datsuns on the lot-- brand new, mind you -- with cracked I.Ps....... I remember Isuzu and Honda scrapping cars in ports because of rust issues - brand new vehicles! I remember people driving Hyundais in the late 80s with engines seizing at 15,000 miles! Hyundai said "nope!" and people walked away from them!

For whatever reason, they were forgiven.

No question that we built some bad cars -- no question. But I also believe that there are MANY MANY MANY people out there that had great experiences with their Fords and Chryslers and GM products -- BUT -- have purchased Foreign because 'it's the thing to do' or 'Foreign cars are better' without any first-hand experience.

It's like some 'former' friends of my parents -- they will only drive Toyotas -- the daughter bought a Malibu -- had no problems until about 40K when her rotors warped......the mother called me up and harranged me to no end - we covered the problem -- and the dealer extended their warranty as a good will gesture. The mother says "never again!" -- and yet the son-in-law said "Scott -- she's crazy -- her Toyota Highlander has warped rotors and Toyota will do NOTHING for her!!!......"

How do you deal with THAT?????

But see - I see this happen every day -- and I'm sure some of you do as well........WHAT DO YOU DO in the situation we find ourselves????

THAT'S why I agree with what Peter says......(did you read the article???)

I'm truly sorry to hear about your parents' Saturn Vue -- but I also know that there are millions of Toyotas out there with sludge problems -- and I also know that there were tens of thousands that were told in no uncertain terms "too bad" by Toyota....and yet where's the outrage?

now -- I don't make up economy 'law' or 'rules' -- but I DO know that people won't even consider an American brand -- and yet they complain to the high heavens that their 401K has all but disappeared - and the value of their house has dropped thru the floor -- and yet they're completely clueless as to why -- and they live RIGHT HERE in southeast Michigan...........


See what I mean?


soooooooooooooooooo.........I will continue to say "Out of a job yet? Keep buying Foreign!"

 

I'm really curious if there was any sort of prevailing trend of buyers to choose an inferior foreign product over a superior domestic product More likely, buyers got fed up with some of the crap that was pawned during the past few decades, and jumped over to the foreign OEMs. The "delta" in quality was very large and apparent. Now that Ford and GM have caught up to the Asian manufacturers, the product is very good, but since the positive "delta" is small at best, it'll be much more difficult to attract those buyers back over.

The bottom line is that 30 years of crap won't be undone with one or two good generations of product. I know that might be frustrated, but there's a certain amount of hysteresis to this process.

 

This is the perception gap.

This, maybe more than anything, is what is killing GM. People expect their American car to break, so every tiny noise becomes another confirmation that it's a piece of crap. People don't expect their Japanese car to break, so even if its front axles are clattering like maracas and they can't see because of the oil smokescreen coming out the back, well, they must be the exception to the rule.

Consider that in California, 7 out of 10 of the cars on my daily commute are foreign. Maybe 8 in 10.

Most people I know will not consider an American car at all--period, for any reason. They're shocked when they see what I drive. They expect, as a successful business-owner, I would be driving, well, something made in Germany. Or at least an Infiniti G35. They will not listen to any economic justification; they will not hear that American cars are equal to or better than the competition; they will not go out an compare them at all.

Now, let that sink in. They won't go look. AT ALL.

What GM needs is a new communications program--one that lets go of all the foofy brand-message-and-single-cool-image crap that your ad agencies have foisted on us, and goes directly for the jugular. That compares, product to product, feature for feature, so people see that the products are equal or better. That explains the tax breaks foreign manufacturers get. That shows the effects of buying out of the country. That ties into the "buy local" sentiment that exists in nearly every small and midsize city in the USA.

These aren't 30 seconds of a car driving on a wet autumn road. This may not be short-form commercials at all. They may even be infomercials. But they need to go head-to-head and put it out there: our cars are as good as or better. Consumer Reports is skewed. We're operating in an unfair business environment. Yesterday is not today. We deserve consideration.

Because you need to kill this perception gap, and you need to do it, like, yesterday. Or else there isn't going to be a tomorrow.

 

I'm with you on this one Scott... DeLorenzo can be a "Bitter little Pill" guy in some instances, but he is curbing his vitriol in this epistle, and he's very much on the mark in this instance.

Perhaps he has seen the need to bury his personal hatchets and tell it much as it is.

As my father would say, "There are no atheists in foxholes"...

 

Scott, you are right in a lot of the things you're saying, and your frustration is completely warranted. However, it's not up to the consumer to figure out why certain products aren't selling, it's up to the people making and selling those products.
I've posted this before, but whatever happened to the saying that "The customer is ALWAYS right."? Whatever the reasons may be for people buying what they buy, there are reasons.
Sooooo......if I were in a position of an automaker losing market share to other automakers, instead of complaining about unfavorable circumstances and speculating on why people aren't buying my products, maybe it would be a better idea to actually find out why my products aren't selling. That's called research, lots of research, which I'm sure is done, but obviously not well enough. For example, asking the person who traded in their 2004 Silverado for a 2008 Civic why they did that when they could've bought a new Cobalt. The bottom line is EVERYONE has their reasons; it just seems apparent that domestic automakers aren't really paying attention to those reasons as well as some import automakers.

http://www.motorauthority.com/americ...s-content.html

....an exerpt:

"Of the respondents to the American-Made Index survey, 27% said they would not consider buying anything but an American-made car, while only one-third as many (9%) were foreign-car only buyers. Most respondents didn't have a fixed allegiance. The stated reasons for buying American-only were a desire to support the local economy and brand loyalty. Foreign-car buyers believe the products to be higher quality than American-made equivalents. Recent results of J.D. Power surveys show that that isn't always the case, however, with Ford matching Toyota and Honda in initial quality."

Reading this and some simple deductive reasoning says that about 64% of people don't really care about the brand of the vehicle they buy. It also tells me that this huge "foreign cars are better mmmkay perception" that American loyalists complain about isn't all it's cracked up to be.
Maybe it just comes down to American automakers doing a better job of making and marketing vehicles that Americans would want to buy.....

one more time......The customer is ALWAYS right.

 

I'm noticing a trend in this thread . . . the retorts are in the micro versus the macro: ex, "well I know such-and-such who had a car that had 300,000 miles on it with no problems and was a piece of art until the end" . . .


And that the entire of issue of the burden of the unions has been completely ignored.

 

I don't think it's so much completely ignored as much as it's probably been addressed in other similar threads.

https://www.camaroz28.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=642662

That, and blaming consumers for this to me, is completely appalling.

Here's something else that's strange. I went down to the local tire/wheel shop a few weeks ago to have a set of drag radials mounted. While I was in there, I was looking around at the wheels they had on display. I noticed multiple sets of American Racing wheels and guess what they said on them - MADE IN CHINA. I also saw a set of Foose wheels; guess what they said on them - yeah, MADE IN CHINA. You would think AMERICAN Racing wheels and wheels designed by freakin' Chip Foose would be made in the USA.

 

I can tell ya right now why they were forgiven, an increase in quality and a good warranty to back it up topped off with advertising to drive the point home.


Hell I STILL remember the Hyundai adverts with 100,000 mile 10 year powertrain warranty in HUGE white on black plastered on the TV during their commercials.


If GM would put their 100,000 mile 5 year powertrain warranty at the front and center of their commercials I'd expect it'd help change the perception issue but for some reason by and large this hasn't happened.

 

I have always thought that all the automotive pensions for ALL COMPANIES selling cars in the US should be thrown into one managed fund...and every year the amount of money each car maker has to pay in should be based on their current year market share. The current system does not work the same was social security does not...and will eventially fail otherwise. While I am sure some see the idea as Socialistic...I see it as needed to protect our economy. What's Toyota gonna do? Stop selling cars here? If GM ends up gaining market share..they have to pay more back into the fund.

Fact of the matter is, this country needs to wake up...and look out for itself before it lets others play in our yard. China certainly is not about playing fair...their whole economy is basically setup with priciples that amount cheating. Communisum with capitalism? Pegging currency to the dollar? Not allowing foreign companies in unless they have a chinese company as a parter (who will eventually knock the stuff off and make it on it's own)?

 

Yet when GM's quality increases, so much to the point that we shut out the camry in JD Power and Associate's Award for Best Midsize Sedan in Intial Quality, as well as slapping a great warranty on the car, people still think that GM makes crap products. We advertised the hell out of the awards that the Malibu won, we had the 5 year/100,000 mile warranty as a key point in a ton of our ads, yet people still think the camry's a better car. So why haven't we been forgiven for the crap we put on dealer lots years ago?

And I wonder why every time I get in arguments with my import driving friends over cars, the only response they can come up with is, "GM's cars aren't as good as honda's or toyota's." I wonder why my friend's dad refuses to even look at a Malibu in his search for a midsize sedan, despite my constant advertising for it. I wonder why my friend refuses to admit that the CTS-V is a better car than his dad's BMW M5, despite the better performance and fuel economy, despite all the evidence and numbers presented before him. And I especially love the fact that one of my friends is such a 350Z fanboy that he refuses to admit that the Camaro is a better car just because the 350Z has a few more horses over the base V6, despite costing more and achieving worse fuel economy than the base Camaro LS.

I'm tired of it. I'm tired of the arguing, tired of the fighting, tired of how stupid people are. I always tell people to give us a chance, at least look at our cars before dismissing them. The ones who are willing to do so end up liking the cars, sometimes they buy them, sometimes they don't, but their perception of GM is changed dramatically. It's the ones who are still living in the past, thinking that GM = cheap, plastic interiors, unreliable cars, blah blah blah, whatever, who irritate me the most. So yeah, we screwed up. But as Scott pointed out, so did the import brands. Why haven't they been scrutinized for every single mistake they make? Why doesn't anyone know about the massive toyota engine sludge fiasco, yet everyone seems to know about even the smallest of GM's or Ford's recalls? It's gotten to a point to where it seems like Americans WANT GM and Ford to die.

I don't care if import is the "cool" thing to do now. My family has driven GM ever since my dad worked at Norwood Assembly. Even before that, he never bought an import, only GMs and Fords (yeah...he had a Mustang...). I'm going to continue that legacy with my future cars. If you want me to buy an import, you'll have to claw my GM keys from my cold, dead hands.

 

Anyone remember GM's "Road to Redemption" campaign from several years ago? That seems to hit all the right notes with a lot of people here in Michigan who perceived it as GM's reawakening. And then the campaign was gone in what seemed like a few months, despite the fact that it'll take years to turn around the market's negative perception. What gives? Imagine such a campaign now, as there would really be something to talk about...

 

You don't turn around 25 years of garbage with a few awards.

And the same people that you lament against having the perception that imports are better, many have the same perception of people like you.

You cannot honestly sit there with a straight face and tell me that an 06 Malibu was as good as a car as an 06 Accord. You're loyalty is blinding you to the facts.

 

Another one for you, Scott, to reinforce the fact that you have a perception gap/selection bias problem that needs to be fixed, pronto.

Guess the car in this description, taken from another car forum:

"I picked up one with 55,xxx miles on it back in July.

The main things you need to check for are whether the power things work - the window motors and door lock actuators are notorious for going out on these cars and aren't cheap or easy to replace.

Also, the interior is bad about having a lot of creaks and rattles. There's been a TSB on it.

The gas mileage around town kind of sucks, I get around 17mpg with mainly city driving, but I also have a pretty heavy foot and tend to do a lot of "spirited driving" on back roads to and from work.

The newer models have an oil consumption problem.

The paint on these cars is very soft and scratches/rockpecks will be something to look for. If they aren't already there, you'll get them easily.

Other than the few little niggling issues, I absolutely love my car."

Camaro? Nope.

Pontiac GXP? Nope.

Saturn Sky? Nope.

Ford Mustang? Nope.

Any American brand? Nope.

Any German brand? Nope.

How about a 4-year-old Infiniti G35 coupe?

The guy lists off problems that sound like they might be coming from a fourth gen Camaro: power windows and locks break, the interior rattles, gas mileage ain't great, some models have oil consumption problems, the paint is thin and chips easily. And yet: "I LOVE THIS CAR."

Now, if the car had been American, I bet that the summation would be something more like, "Oh my god, what a piece of crap, all these problems in a 4-year-old car, the Americans can't build anything right, I'm gonna go buy a Nissan!"

Bottom line: all cars have problems. In almost every case except for American cars, people can discuss those problems calmly and get past them. In the case of American cars, they're always used to "confirm" the inherent crappiness of the product.

This is a perception gap. This is confirmation bias.

You need a hard-hitting, ongoing communications campaign to address this. Not stupid image-based commercials. And you need it now.

 

25 years of garbage, eh? Yeah, we put out some crappy cars, but I don't think that a '89 Safari with over 300,000 miles that still runs to this day without any major problems is garbage, nor do I think that a '93 Saturn SW2 (made almost completely out of plastic, mind you) lasting over 243,000 miles and 13 years is garbage. Maybe it was luck, maybe it was just plain old good maintenance, but those two cars alone convinced me that not everything GM produced in that time period was garbage. And I highly, highly doubt that my dad built garbage.

For the record, I did indeed look at the competition when searching for a new car to replace the Saturn. I looked at toyota, looked at honda, looked at Ford. I liked the Fusion, but there weren't many good offers for it at the time. We looked at a corolla and almost bought one, but by the time all the numbers were figured, the car went from an MSRP around $14k to an outrageous $18k. I was not a fan of the accord's styling whatsoever, and the dealership was not willing to negotiate. Even worse, the one we looked at already appeared to have some interior fit and finish issues. So for our purposes and our financial state, yes, I did indeed go with an '07 Malibu over an accord. Sue me if you think that's so wrong. The car was stickered at $17,495, after GMS pricing and GM Card discounts, we picked it up for somewhere between $15k and $16k. The car has run great so far, the engine is fuel efficient and doesn't sacrifice power. It has over 20,000 miles on it now. My only complaint is that it's not an '08 Malibu.

Did I ever say that I thought all of GM's cars were better than imports? No. I think toyota did a hell of a good job with the Avalon, and I really wish GM would upgrade the Impala to match it. I criticize GM's cars just as much as imports. As I previously stated, I give everyone a fair chance when it comes to buying a new car, it's just that GM always gets us a better deal because of GMS pricing and I usually don't like what the import brands have to offer anyways.

My loyalty to GM stems from my father's 30 year long employment with them, which is something that VERY few people can understand. If you think that it's so wrong to continue supporting a company that gave my dad such a good paying job that he was able to afford a brand new house within a few years of his employment, then that's your own problem.

 

. . . micro instead of macro yet again.