I've also heard some discussion of leasing the battery packs out separately. You'd own the car, but could replace the pack when it reached its useful life.

 

Unfortunately, it is a size problem. I was hoping the two mode system would make it into more products, but it is in fact to big for the Lambdas right now (I really wish it wasn't).

With future technology, I don't think this is going to be a problem at GM. BAS systems are available on several systems that are midsize cars and trucks. GM will take the same plan going forward.

Also, GM is also making smarter moves by not requiring more powerful engines on higher models. If you wanted all of the features of an Malibu LTZ, you had to get the 3.6L V6. A nice engine, but if people want a nice car with less power, they now have the option to get an LTZ with a 2.4L engine.

GM recognizes that to sell the cars in the future, fuel economy is going to be needed every where.

 

That is one thing I always hated about cars. Ford is doing the same thing now. Offering the 4 cyl. on high end trim levels

 

10 years ago, even as a consumer it was a no-brainer that if you wanted the upmarket car you expected the more powerful engine. Who wanted a car, in an era of cheap fuel, loaded up with everything but with the base engine? There was no point. Loaded means loaded.

We're just now starting to see the automakers catch up with consumer taste shifts in that regard.

 

Absolutely correct. In fact, 5 years ago this was true for many consumers. My wife didn't want to get an SUV because gas prices were going up, but she wouldn't even test drive a Mazda 6 with a 4cyl. All she knew is that she wanted a V6. Now, our next car is likely to be a 4cyl.

 

It's a big problem for EVs and plug-in vehicles. In the case of a traditional hybrid (Prius, Escape, Tahoe, et al), you could lose a large chunk of the pack capacity and barely notice the effect, because the pack capacity has a relatively mild impact on the overall system efficiency. Sure, you might see a mileage decrease of 10% after 10 years, but that wouldn't be all that atypical for a regular powertrain, either.

With a plug-in, however, users will tend to notice any drop-off in pack capacity. The question is whether the calendar aging effect of lithium-ion batteries has truly be solved. There are several claims by several parties stating that their 3 years of calendar life data can be extrapolated out to 8-10 years. Those without a horse in the race tend to be far more skeptical, as the calendar life failure may be multi-modal.

Here's the problem - everyone wants to think that the battery packs will get cheaper with volume, when the likely situation is opposite. There's only so much lithium that can be extracted, and the art of transforming the raw materials into cells and then into modules and then into functional packs takes a lot of time, energy, labor, and capital. It's not like we're going to see the Volt's $20K pack coming down to $5K simply because the volume goes up - the real world don't work that way (at least not for long).

So, let's assume that maybe the pack does come down a bit as specifications are relaxed, and maybe it's eventually a $10,000 item. Combine that with the cost of the E-Flex's gen-set and traction motor (both of which are larger in size than the two motor/generators in a Two Mode or Hybrid Synergy Drive system), and you've burdened the vehicle with perhaps an extra $15K of cost. Any possible future fuel price scenario that makes a $15K hybrid system attractive (probably somewhere in the $10-15/gallon range) probably killed off most automakers - including GM - several years ago.

If GM survives long enough to see the Volt reach its full potential, it won't be because of the Volt. Put another way - Toyota and Honda haven't reached their current positions because of the Prius and the Impact. Even in the case of Toyota - whose Prius now sells in volumes that most thought unbelievable when the car launched - the groundwork was laid ten years prior with millions of mass-market cars.

As much as the world might need the Volt in another ten years, GM won't survive to see that moment if future development projects in any way allow the company to take its eye off the ball in the near term. GM's survival is entirely dependent on cars like the Malibu and whatever-the-heck-we're-going-to-call-the-Cobalt. Without home runs in the boring segments of passenger cars, the Volt won't be anything more than an interesting footnote to GM's demise.

 

This is true, unfortunately because of this there are very few nice 4 cyl. cars used I'd buy a used Escape but all the 4 cyls. (if you can even find one) are POS and non have 4x4. Same goes for the AWD fusion, V6 only, and when you add a V6 with AWD you get V8 fuel economy.

 

If there is any benifit out of the Volt, its perception, and GM is losing it with every Prius sold.
Since, for whatever reason, GM's hybrid system is not being put into smaller 4cyl cars, but bigger V6 cars and SUV's as well as V8 trucks, I dont see the advantage there?
Why bother with a 6cyl engine plus expensive hyrbid system = same gas milage as low end 4cyl model.
But I digress...

BEST move GM did was offer TRIM levels, not ENGINE levels. Ugh...unless its a performance package, let them add what they wanted. Toy/Hon/Nissian has been doing it for decades. People want luxury, and they want economy.

Volt's advantage is in PR, and nothing else. A few hundred thousand Volts ont he ground, getting better reviews, better milage, better image, on top of getting rid of Hummer, will give GM this "reborn green" image.

I just wish that the most part of GM wasnt totaly brain dead.

 

guionM, there have been 3 pages of posts now since you opened this one up.

Get the feeling that many are simply looking at "good points" inside GM - any and all good points - to keep their optimism alive and keep pulling for the giant to awaken and start kicking butt again?

I think there was some mis-communication between what many were thinking and what you thought they were saying. I have not yet seen anyone here say they think the Volt is "the sole salvation of GM"... it's just viewed as an overall "good thing" that GM needs to continue with and capitalize on - that's all.

One last thing - saw another blurb about it again on the 'net last night.
Whether it flies or flops, it certainly has gotten GM some press time - I'll say that for it!

 

Which one? BAS or two mode? I believe that GMs approach, for better or worse, has been to try and get the mileage up on lower mileage vehicles rather than try to get even more mileage out of small vehicles. Look at the mileage gain they got out of the Cobalt XFE with a few tweaks that didn't add a whole lot of expense. I think that's going to be their small car approach until the new 1.4 turbo arrives.

Once again, are you referring to BAS or Two Mode here? The BAS system in the 2009 Malibu and Aura only adds about 3 mpg to the combined MPG (4 city and 1 highway) compared to the 2.4 with 6 speed, but it's not a very expensive system. The more expensive Two Mode system offers much higher mileage improvements. The official figures for the Two Mode Vue haven't been released yet, but they are claiming 50% better mileage than the 6 Cylinder Vue. That would put the Two Mode around 25 city and 29 highway. And it's expected to go 0-60 in 7 seconds. The BAS Vue gets 25/32. The 4 cylinder VUE gets 19/26. So there are definitely some gains there.

 

The Volt will get people to the dealerships, and will hopefully drive sales of the other cars. People will see the Volt, and may not be able to afford it, or don't like it, but will possibly buy a Malibu, or a Cobalt/Cruze. Possibly even a Camaro (I know, it's a stretch). They will see GM as being a company that is doing something good for the environment, and the customer will transfer that "green-ness" to the other models.

This may be true now, but from what I remember, I don't think the Prius was sold at a profit in the beginning. But the Prius has been on the road for 8+ model years, so chances are the model is profitable now.

Look at the muscle car scene. Why would anyone pay $8k for a rusted out 69 Camaro shell, that has no motor/trans, and no interior? I see your point, but look at this site, people are looking for a cheap 3rd gen/2nd gen, truck to throw a spare LTX or LSX into. If we get some exciting hybrid cars that have performance, you will see someone throwing $8k worth of batteries in a $5k car.

 

Felt it better to resurrect this thread than start a new one.

BACK ON TOPIC - the Volt...

Saw the spot on the Olympics, and ran across this earlier this morning...

Over 33,000 buyers signed up for GM electric car

"In a bid to show the demand for the upcoming all-electric Chevrolet Volt, a proponent of the car has released details of an unofficial waiting list for the vehicle with over 33,000 prospective buyers.

In a bid to show the demand for the upcoming all-electric Chevrolet Volt, a proponent of the car has released details of an unofficial waiting list for the vehicle with over 33,000 prospective buyers.

Like most automakers, GM typically keeps its vehicle development programs under tight wraps and shuns publicity.

But with the Volt, GM has taken the opposite approach, actively consulting enthusiasts like Dennis and featuring the concept version of the Volt in high-profile advertising, including a television spot broadcast during the Olympics."

I'd say this pretty much solidifies GM's position with the Volt... it is indeed a PR campain that also has the promise of paying dividends down the road.
Don't think anyone is still viewing it as any great salvation or golden sabre for GM, just a silver lining around the dark cloud.

 

Some new photos released...
http://www.autoblog.com/2008/08/14/g...-volt-teasers/

 

Looks to me from those new photos that the attention to detail on this car will be commensurate with its price. Bravo GM.