Why do many feel the Volt is GM's Savior?
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Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 4,306
From: Jersey Shore
yeah, I guess the class leading 37mpg Cobalt, 33mpg Malibu and Aura are light years behind the 33mpg Corolla and teh 31mpg Camry.
Subaru? Subies arent known for thier fuel economy, especially with the AWD system standard.
Not to mention that GM has a two-mode system is a big more advanced then Toyota's synergy system.
Light years? To make such a stupid statement like that...ugh, its these types of myths that keep GM in people's minds that they only make gas guzzling trucks while Toyota makes cars that run on love and shats out bunny rabbits.
Thank you, Guy. Too many people think that the Volt is meaningful in the short term. It isn't; I seriously doubt that the first few years of sales will break into the five-digit range. Given enough time, a lot of work, and some luck, it'll turn into a meaningful product.
Lutz says it all the time. The Volt will not be a money maker. It wont do anything else but put GM a few notches ahead of everyone else. Its about gaining technical edge over Toyota, who right now has the perceived edge in the technology department. The Volt is the Icon of GM, the flag ship of a company, something for the company to be proud of, a technological vehicle that jumps GM back into the green eyes of American,a nd the world.
GM didnt think the Prius would sell over 100k units a year.
GM didnt think that making a Prius type car would have any meaning
The same thinking in this thread is the same thinking that GM has been doing for teh past 20 years.
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 388
Business 101 is one thing - good engineering is something else. The Volt is where the two come together. Business 101 says you have to make money on every product you sell. Good Engineering says you have to be able to make a quality product from the start - and with a new technology, there will be things you learn along the way. First generation Volt won't make GM money (they say), but you can guarantee the second generation will because they'll learn things from the first generation car that can take cost out of the second generation car.
And this is exactly why GM isn't "light years" behind in engine development. If you'd bothered to study the current market, GM has more hybrids on the market than Toyota does. Sure Prius is the most recognizable, but GM has more varied vehicles that have hybrid powertrains. There's a lot of good engineering that has to make that happen and it shows that GM is technically far more flexible than their competition.
And this is exactly why GM isn't "light years" behind in engine development. If you'd bothered to study the current market, GM has more hybrids on the market than Toyota does. Sure Prius is the most recognizable, but GM has more varied vehicles that have hybrid powertrains. There's a lot of good engineering that has to make that happen and it shows that GM is technically far more flexible than their competition.
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 824
From: North of Cincy
Perhaps Business 101 needs to teach about long term investments. The first gen Volt probably won't make money. But, it will lay the ground work for new technology that will be making profits. In the mean time, it is very good marketing for the company. It needs to come out so that people can see that GM is dedicated to green cars. That will help GM get over some of the obstacles of its gas guzzling image from Hummer, lots of Tahoe, Suburbans etc, even though most main stream manufactures also have these same size vehicles.
I wouldn't call Ford far behind on $$ issues. It did lose 8.7 Billion last quarter as well.
I wouldn't call Ford far behind on $$ issues. It did lose 8.7 Billion last quarter as well.
The ground work laid out from the Volt from R&D will cheapen and trickle down to other cars in GM's future. Recoupeing anything with as much R&D that went into the Volt is a huge plus. Most of the time this is written off as a loss.
By selling the Volt GM gets great Marketing and the ability to probe the market and see if they should continue huge amounts of Research on the plug-in electric car. There is Marketing 101, Econ 101, Acc 101
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 1,958
From: Kansas City, MO
Finally, the economically aware buyer (which is just about every buyer using their own money and/or credit to buy a car.... or pretty much everyone who isn't buying a car simply to send a message) is going to look at the $40,000 price tage of the Volt and look at the $15,000 price tag of a Cobalt, and buy the Cobalt. Or the $20,000 Malibu. Or the $12,000 Aveo. A few might even note that a Cadillac CTS is cheaper.
On the other hand, why buy a Prius over a Yaris if economic awareness is the primary goal? The better milage of the Prius isn't going to make up for its 10k plus higher sticker price for quite some time.
While nothing has been determined yet. GM are petitioning for a $7,000 tax credit for the Volt. That would bring the sticker down significantly, not into Cobalt territory, but closer to the average Prius transaction price.
The Volt is not going to make GM any profit. There's a better than even chance, GM will lose money on each one they build. The Volt is nothing more than a feel good vehicle that has quite a few technological innovations. It's GM's other cars that's going to make the money. And these cars are going to have to sell.
I agree that they're using it as a PR effort, but I don't think it's a bad strategy. The Malibu is nice and the 4 Cylinder 6 Speed is at the head of the class. They need the CRUZE sooner rather than later and hopefully a more competitive Aveo replacement. Those would be cars that I think could capture the attention of those who go to look at a CRUZE.
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Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 10,285
From: Albany, NY
Take every liquid fuel possible (oil, natural gas, NG condensates, propane, shale, etc.), add 'em up, and determine when the peak rate of output occurs. That's "peak liquids" ("liquid" being the key term, as transportation requires something that can be pumped). How much is in the ground ("reserves") isn't important here; it's the rate at which it can be extracted.
If this 2018 date is true, then having a vehicle that can run for some distance without using any fuel at all would be highly desirable - and thus a plug-in hybrid will be far more useful than a conventional hybrid. The question then becomes one of range; if you only drive 10 miles to work but you buy a car with a 40-mile range, then you've dramatically overpaid for the battery pack. Toyota and the DOE seem to think that sizing the pack towards the lower end of the average commute (5-8 miles) makes the most sense, while GM is looking at sizing the pack towards the upper end (Honda and Mitsubishi seem to be looking at pure EVs, which is taking GM's position to the extreme).
Let's put this in real simple and brutal terms - using current market pricing for lithium-ion batteries (which are already in mega-high-production in laptops) and the additional cost of putting them into a usable pack, a vehicle like the Volt only makes sense if gasoline simply isn't available. Your business case for a hybrid plug-in needs to make the pack look attractive compared to the price of fuel, and to justify a $20,000 battery pack requires incredibly expensive (or non-existant) fuel.
Either GM sees fuel availability problems within the next decade, or the Volt is little more than a very expensive and cynical PR stunt. The former is downright scary, where as the latter would only be mildly irritating.
If this 2018 date is true, then having a vehicle that can run for some distance without using any fuel at all would be highly desirable - and thus a plug-in hybrid will be far more useful than a conventional hybrid. The question then becomes one of range; if you only drive 10 miles to work but you buy a car with a 40-mile range, then you've dramatically overpaid for the battery pack. Toyota and the DOE seem to think that sizing the pack towards the lower end of the average commute (5-8 miles) makes the most sense, while GM is looking at sizing the pack towards the upper end (Honda and Mitsubishi seem to be looking at pure EVs, which is taking GM's position to the extreme).
Let's put this in real simple and brutal terms - using current market pricing for lithium-ion batteries (which are already in mega-high-production in laptops) and the additional cost of putting them into a usable pack, a vehicle like the Volt only makes sense if gasoline simply isn't available. Your business case for a hybrid plug-in needs to make the pack look attractive compared to the price of fuel, and to justify a $20,000 battery pack requires incredibly expensive (or non-existant) fuel.
Either GM sees fuel availability problems within the next decade, or the Volt is little more than a very expensive and cynical PR stunt. The former is downright scary, where as the latter would only be mildly irritating.
Maybe I'm missing something, but the more I think about it I really like the idea of using compressed air as a means of energy storage. The technology is already here, it is renewable and doesn't require any exotic materials.
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Joined: Jul 2000
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My major concern with the volt is that GM will fail to bring the technology down to lower models. I feel GM failed with the two - mode becuase the tech. was limited to expensive large vehicles instead of making it down to impalas, malibus, and smaller cars. If the volt tech. cant be transfered into a malibu, G6, or $25,000 volume car then it may be a waste vs. a Plug in prius thats 12,000+ cheaper.
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Joined: Apr 2002
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From: All around
GM's production ability for the vehicle will be extremely limited, so it will not be some huge-sales vehicle. It will generate a lot of attention and show room traffic however.
Originally Posted by 91_z28_4me
$50 Billion and some exceptional cars (CTS-V/ZR1).
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 1,958
From: Kansas City, MO
My major concern with the volt is that GM will fail to bring the technology down to lower models. I feel GM failed with the two - mode becuase the tech. was limited to expensive large vehicles instead of making it down to impalas, malibus, and smaller cars. If the volt tech. cant be transfered into a malibu, G6, or $25,000 volume car then it may be a waste vs. a Plug in prius thats 12,000+ cheaper.
E-Flex by its very nature will be much more scalable. Thus the "Flex" in the name.
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Joined: Jul 2000
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The Two Mode system simply wasn't designed to go into small cars. It's integrated into the transmission which is, by its nature, large. There will be a Two Mode VUE next year that should undercut any of the existing Two Mode vehicles, but it still won't by $25k.
E-Flex by its very nature will be much more scalable. Thus the "Flex" in the name.
E-Flex by its very nature will be much more scalable. Thus the "Flex" in the name.
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Joined: Aug 2003
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From: Tucson, AZ
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I look at the Volt as a test-bed for the plug-in technology, as well as a PR statement showing the world that GM is more than just trucks, that they are pursuing alternate means of transportation for the present/future, and that they are capable of leading the way. Of course if the Volt is a disaster, it will be a tremendous blow to GM's image, so they better get it right from the start!
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Joined: Sep 2001
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From: Frankfort, KY U.S.A.
The problem I have with electirc cars is, what happens in 2-3 years when the Lithium Ion battery pack is down 50% or so capacity and you can't make you daily commute. Or what happens in another few years after that when the $20K battery pack dies and your car is worth less than $20K with a new battery pack.
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Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,180
From: Yadkinville, NC USA
The problem I have with electirc cars is, what happens in 2-3 years when the Lithium Ion battery pack is down 50% or so capacity and you can't make you daily commute. Or what happens in another few years after that when the $20K battery pack dies and your car is worth less than $20K with a new battery pack.
The hybrid Escape is all but a disposeable vehicle.
Who will put $7800 worth of batteries in a vehicle that has a market value of $5k when it's batteries are dead? Likewise, who will pay anything for a hybrid that needs a battery pack?
Maybe these are some of the infrastructure problems that a committment to volumes can help overcome.
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Joined: Nov 2000
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From: Kansas City, MO
When it was talked about back in 2005- 2006 that GM would be working with chrysler to design the two-mode, i was thought that it could span fwd cars, rwd cars, and trucks/suv's. The two mode was expected to make it into several different types of vehicles. Now we are finding out that its two expensive to make for that to happen. Im just saying we are still 2-3 years before we see what happens with E flex and given GM's track record it could turn out to be dissapointing. Although i hope they get it right.