What we can expect as General Motors unravels
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 2,139
From: Commerce, mi, USA
BDF,
The thing is man. I see it in the publics reaction. I have the chance every day to meet new people and talk to them at my job. And combine that personal talk with what I see online, polls, and TV.
The American people want GM to fail. they think Ford is part of the "bailout"
and the end result is..if the country is not behind this. Our idiots in goverment will be too. They will BK GM as fast as Sen Shelby can say Toyota!
GM has no hope and the reason is the american people want GM to fail..and that is bad.
The thing is man. I see it in the publics reaction. I have the chance every day to meet new people and talk to them at my job. And combine that personal talk with what I see online, polls, and TV.
The American people want GM to fail. they think Ford is part of the "bailout"
and the end result is..if the country is not behind this. Our idiots in goverment will be too. They will BK GM as fast as Sen Shelby can say Toyota!
GM has no hope and the reason is the american people want GM to fail..and that is bad.
I think people should let the government and GM work out the best solution... and stop beating on GM while that's being worked out.
Registered User
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 2,224
From: CNY
Good GRIEF people. Really - what is the point of all this anti-GM diatribe? (Not just you either HuJass, just pointing to this as a convenient example). Do you seriously think GM people are going to read all this carping and moaning? (I can't imagine any GM rep or leader wanting to, or being able to tolerate reading such one-sided flames). Or do you all just enjoy having big tantrums about this? Really, what is the point?
And as for the original theme, it's wildly premature to be writing GM's epitaph. GM has a few hurdles to clear - UAW, debt/bondholders, and the dealers. They will find a solution with help from the Government. Then life (and a streamlined GM) will go on. Stop already, with the "sky is falling" hysteria
And as for the original theme, it's wildly premature to be writing GM's epitaph. GM has a few hurdles to clear - UAW, debt/bondholders, and the dealers. They will find a solution with help from the Government. Then life (and a streamlined GM) will go on. Stop already, with the "sky is falling" hysteria
It's just hard to see the car company that you love run into such deep problems.
I would feel better if GM and the government started talking about GM's employee structure and decision making policies (or lack thereof); to address their top-heavy-ness; to address how to rid themselves of the bureauocracy that's crippling them.
Cutting the job bank from the UAW or putting health care into the VEBA isn't going to help if the powers to be keep making bad decisions and choices. And THAT'S the root of the problem.
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Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,808
From: FL/MI
I don't think it will be anything near that rosy.
Buick will be sold to the Chinese. Pontiac has no value any longer. If we end up with Chevy and Cadillac............. the former GM will be very lucky. Frankly, about the only thing that the company formerly named GM, may be able to salvage, is the actual Chevrolet brand.
Even that will take some luck.
It would not surprise me, if I woke up Monday morning, to find that GM has filed Chapter 11. When it happens, it will be quick, and will be right after they have given assurances that no such thing will happen.
The longer they drag this all out, the less that will survive in any form. There simply won't be enough left to salvage.
Buick will be sold to the Chinese. Pontiac has no value any longer. If we end up with Chevy and Cadillac............. the former GM will be very lucky. Frankly, about the only thing that the company formerly named GM, may be able to salvage, is the actual Chevrolet brand.
Even that will take some luck.
It would not surprise me, if I woke up Monday morning, to find that GM has filed Chapter 11. When it happens, it will be quick, and will be right after they have given assurances that no such thing will happen.
The longer they drag this all out, the less that will survive in any form. There simply won't be enough left to salvage.
Let's be candid. Ford wisely mortgaged themselves when mortgages were still available. It's a lucky stroke for Ford and I don't begrudge their move when moving was possible.
If this market size holds or drops beyond a certain timeframe, Ford will be asking for "guvmint assistance".
They are wise to burn the cash they have in hand and avoid any assistance... it's a competitive advantage. Ford can still come hat in hand to the government at any point. Being last in line has it's advantages as arguments based on helping the "sole survivor" can have some dramatic and sobering effect.
Ford and GM are linked by their size.
Chrysler is less so, but I don't want to see an actual Chrysler employee plowed under. Cerberus I could care less about. Actual car manufacturing folks? Them I care about.They really have some skin in the game. That skin is their own skin. Not some hedge fund sort of skin. This country is so caught up in class warfare that any average working person is suspect if they make more than "you" do... Thus the nature of today's politics. It's disgusting.
There is no room whatsoever for a smug attitude on the part of GM nor Ford fans. No sufficient receipts from GM or Ford for the domestic supplier base, no domestic car biz. GM's legacy costs and retiree pensions will fall to the US government. Let's just say that that scenario is all liability with zero offsetting income. Democrats could certainly mitigate the damage, but absolutely at their peril in the mid-term and absolutely in next presidential if the economy isn't on the definate uprise.
Ford is burning cash they have already borrowed. Ford is not making money. IMHO, they are spending much to cop a point or a point and a half of market share. Ford can not weather a 24 month economic malaise and shrunken overall market. Furthermore, Ford will be a dead man walking if GM goes down. Ford is playing the hand they have been dealt... it isn't a pat hand by any means.
Pardon my own editorialization here... This situation is not an abstract excercise. Some of this internet banter trivializes REAL people's LIVES. Tangible, call them by name, actual living human beings.
When I go to work I know families are depending on me to make sure they receive a fair shake based on the product produced and offered.
I suggest that there is real gravity in all of this situation. Forget me or my affiliations. Weigh the actual gravity of this stuff.
It should not, and can not, be trivialized as if it were some play by play horse race.
Last edited by 1fastdog; Mar 1, 2009 at 03:45 PM.
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Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 3,748
From: New England
Dog,
your right. Thats the problem with most of the U.S.. The media and the news in general dont care its just promoting propaganda.
And most of the people living in the U.S. do not care since its not them.
Well when this couple million lose thier jobs in GM and Chrysler..and then it hits double digits when Ford starts sinking..
Thats when people will see the faces of those who lost it all. Then they will go "WHY!!"..why?? the why is now not after the public bashed them into oblivion. Not till after this is all gone then will people realize we FUBARed ourselves all to hell.
I have always said it is not just the higher ups but its the guy who sold the papers to the workers going to work shutting his shop down since the town lost its factory..its the coffee shop that just turned out its lights for the last time since the 3rd shift at that plant is no more. The small companies that have NOTHING to do with the auto industry they will be hurt..these are the people that we will finally see...when the general public gets effected by the car companies being gone..
your right. Thats the problem with most of the U.S.. The media and the news in general dont care its just promoting propaganda.
And most of the people living in the U.S. do not care since its not them.
Well when this couple million lose thier jobs in GM and Chrysler..and then it hits double digits when Ford starts sinking..
Thats when people will see the faces of those who lost it all. Then they will go "WHY!!"..why?? the why is now not after the public bashed them into oblivion. Not till after this is all gone then will people realize we FUBARed ourselves all to hell.
I have always said it is not just the higher ups but its the guy who sold the papers to the workers going to work shutting his shop down since the town lost its factory..its the coffee shop that just turned out its lights for the last time since the 3rd shift at that plant is no more. The small companies that have NOTHING to do with the auto industry they will be hurt..these are the people that we will finally see...when the general public gets effected by the car companies being gone..
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Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 2,224
From: CNY
Caps,
I don't think we'll see the day when people in this country will ever say something like "boy, now I wished we bailed out the Big 3". You'll never see that.
People will be even angrier at the Big 3 and all the people who worked for them. They will blame these people for putting the country into a depression.
Mark my words, if the unthinkable happens, the Big 3 and all it's workers (union and non-union alike) will get blamed.
But you will see more finger pointing and more bashing and more berating and more vile and more venom.
Even if we hit a depression, you will see and hear people complain about the people who lost everything; "they should have lived within their means", "they shouldn't have bought that house", "they should have saved more", "they should have gotten a better education", "they should have chosen another field", "they had no business having a child", and on, and on.
Listen to what people say when the talk of bailouts comes up; they say "where's MY bailout?" There have been people on TV that have flat out said "I'm sorry for the people in trouble, but this has to happen" (meaning bankruptcies and foreclosures). Look how people are reacting to the motgage bailout proposal. They actually don't mind seeing their neighbor(s) in trouble or suffering.
This country does not stand together anymore.
Instead of "United We Stand", it has changed to "Every Man For Himself".
I don't think we'll see the day when people in this country will ever say something like "boy, now I wished we bailed out the Big 3". You'll never see that.
People will be even angrier at the Big 3 and all the people who worked for them. They will blame these people for putting the country into a depression.
Mark my words, if the unthinkable happens, the Big 3 and all it's workers (union and non-union alike) will get blamed.
But you will see more finger pointing and more bashing and more berating and more vile and more venom.
Even if we hit a depression, you will see and hear people complain about the people who lost everything; "they should have lived within their means", "they shouldn't have bought that house", "they should have saved more", "they should have gotten a better education", "they should have chosen another field", "they had no business having a child", and on, and on.
Listen to what people say when the talk of bailouts comes up; they say "where's MY bailout?" There have been people on TV that have flat out said "I'm sorry for the people in trouble, but this has to happen" (meaning bankruptcies and foreclosures). Look how people are reacting to the motgage bailout proposal. They actually don't mind seeing their neighbor(s) in trouble or suffering.
This country does not stand together anymore.
Instead of "United We Stand", it has changed to "Every Man For Himself".
Registered User
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 3,748
From: New England
Your right...damn you j/k..but your right. I am hoping for that sliver of smallest chances we do wake up and unite as one again like you said..United We Stand.
But your right..it is all for themselves..cut the nose off to spite the face..use any metaphore (sp)
I always say..Rome is burning...America is Rome..America is burning..
Seams like the senators..like back then do not care or paid off by other countries..how funny that history repeats itself..
But your right..it is all for themselves..cut the nose off to spite the face..use any metaphore (sp)
I always say..Rome is burning...America is Rome..America is burning..
Seams like the senators..like back then do not care or paid off by other countries..how funny that history repeats itself..
Last edited by Caps94ZODG; Mar 1, 2009 at 05:33 PM.
Registered User
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,123
From: Melbourne, Australia
Let's be candid. Ford wisely mortgaged themselves when mortgages were still available. It's a lucky stroke for Ford and I don't begrudge their move when moving was possible.
If this market size holds or drops beyond a certain timeframe, Ford will be asking for "guvmint assistance".
They are wise to burn the cash they have in hand and avoid any assistance... it's a competitive advantage. Ford can still come hat in hand to the government at any point. Being last in line has it's advantages as arguments based on helping the "sole survivor" can have some dramatic and sobering effect.
Ford and GM are linked by their size.
Chrysler is less so, but I don't want to see an actual Chrysler employee plowed under. Cerberus I could care less about. Actual car manufacturing folks? Them I care about.They really have some skin in the game. That skin is their own skin. Not some hedge fund sort of skin. This country is so caught up in class warfare that any average working person is suspect if they make more than "you" do... Thus the nature of today's politics. It's disgusting.
There is no room whatsoever for a smug attitude on the part of GM nor Ford fans. No sufficient receipts from GM or Ford for the domestic supplier base, no domestic car biz. GM's legacy costs and retiree pensions will fall to the US government. Let's just say that that scenario is all liability with zero offsetting income. Democrats could certainly mitigate the damage, but absolutely at their peril in the mid-term and absolutely in next presidential if the economy isn't on the definate uprise.
Ford is burning cash they have already borrowed. Ford is not making money. IMHO, they are spending much to cop a point or a point and a half of market share. Ford can not weather a 24 month economic malaise and shrunken overall market. Furthermore, Ford will be a dead man walking if GM goes down. Ford is playing the hand they have been dealt... it isn't a pat hand by any means.
Pardon my own editorialization here... This situation is not an abstract excercise. Some of this internet banter trivializes REAL people's LIVES. Tangible, call them by name, actual living human beings.
When I go to work I know families are depending on me to make sure they receive a fair shake based on the product produced and offered.
I suggest that there is real gravity in all of this situation. Forget me or my affiliations. Weigh the actual gravity of this stuff.
It should not, and can not, be trivialized as if it were some play by play horse race.
If this market size holds or drops beyond a certain timeframe, Ford will be asking for "guvmint assistance".
They are wise to burn the cash they have in hand and avoid any assistance... it's a competitive advantage. Ford can still come hat in hand to the government at any point. Being last in line has it's advantages as arguments based on helping the "sole survivor" can have some dramatic and sobering effect.
Ford and GM are linked by their size.
Chrysler is less so, but I don't want to see an actual Chrysler employee plowed under. Cerberus I could care less about. Actual car manufacturing folks? Them I care about.They really have some skin in the game. That skin is their own skin. Not some hedge fund sort of skin. This country is so caught up in class warfare that any average working person is suspect if they make more than "you" do... Thus the nature of today's politics. It's disgusting.
There is no room whatsoever for a smug attitude on the part of GM nor Ford fans. No sufficient receipts from GM or Ford for the domestic supplier base, no domestic car biz. GM's legacy costs and retiree pensions will fall to the US government. Let's just say that that scenario is all liability with zero offsetting income. Democrats could certainly mitigate the damage, but absolutely at their peril in the mid-term and absolutely in next presidential if the economy isn't on the definate uprise.
Ford is burning cash they have already borrowed. Ford is not making money. IMHO, they are spending much to cop a point or a point and a half of market share. Ford can not weather a 24 month economic malaise and shrunken overall market. Furthermore, Ford will be a dead man walking if GM goes down. Ford is playing the hand they have been dealt... it isn't a pat hand by any means.
Pardon my own editorialization here... This situation is not an abstract excercise. Some of this internet banter trivializes REAL people's LIVES. Tangible, call them by name, actual living human beings.
When I go to work I know families are depending on me to make sure they receive a fair shake based on the product produced and offered.
I suggest that there is real gravity in all of this situation. Forget me or my affiliations. Weigh the actual gravity of this stuff.
It should not, and can not, be trivialized as if it were some play by play horse race.
Registered User
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,579
From: The Land of Pleasant Living
but hey remember if GM faulters and cuts out all but one or two companies. You think Americans will buy a caddy owned by a chinese company? Or an Indian Hummer?
I think that people have no clue walking into Wal Mart and buying any POS made in China they do not care. But I think they wil finally wake up when an Americn icon like GM splinters off with classic names and brands that will end up in foreign hands. I think then people will open thier eyes to the real truth.
And personally I think if GM fails like this. I don't think you will see a few foreign companies here building cars still just go back to importing them.
Way to go America...transplants..more like cancer. They beat us at our own game!
I think that people have no clue walking into Wal Mart and buying any POS made in China they do not care. But I think they wil finally wake up when an Americn icon like GM splinters off with classic names and brands that will end up in foreign hands. I think then people will open thier eyes to the real truth.
And personally I think if GM fails like this. I don't think you will see a few foreign companies here building cars still just go back to importing them.
Way to go America...transplants..more like cancer. They beat us at our own game!
Registered User
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,579
From: The Land of Pleasant Living
BDF,
The thing is man. I see it in the publics reaction. I have the chance every day to meet new people and talk to them at my job. And combine that personal talk with what I see online, polls, and TV.
The American people want GM to fail. they think Ford is part of the "bailout"
and the end result is..if the country is not behind this. Our idiots in goverment will be too. They will BK GM as fast as Sen Shelby can say Toyota!
GM has no hope and the reason is the american people want GM to fail..and that is bad.
The thing is man. I see it in the publics reaction. I have the chance every day to meet new people and talk to them at my job. And combine that personal talk with what I see online, polls, and TV.
The American people want GM to fail. they think Ford is part of the "bailout"
and the end result is..if the country is not behind this. Our idiots in goverment will be too. They will BK GM as fast as Sen Shelby can say Toyota!
GM has no hope and the reason is the american people want GM to fail..and that is bad.
Thread Starter
Registered User
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 13,713
From: The Golden State
Make no mistake Ford isn't getting involved in any of this. Yes they have more cash right now but unless the economy turns around in the next 12 months they will be very close to where GM was 3-4 months ago, taking a loan. With total NA Vehicle sales below the 11 million unit annual level means they too won't be looking at any profits for some time. That scenario still leads to cash burn.
So no Ford badged Chevy models or anything remotely close to that.
Ford has gotten where they are today by getting back to basics by focusing on their core brands and getting lean. The last thing they could or even would want to do is add some of GM's mess to their own. Ford’s cash can’t support even part of GM’s problems.
GM may look weak and ready to be broke up by corporate raiders but like a blowfish they carry some huge liability and massive debt to be paid by any suitor. UAW, healthcare and pension obligations are still on the books. While several car companies could technically afford to "buy" GM they would sink in the very deep pool of red ink that likes behind the market cap value.
So no Ford badged Chevy models or anything remotely close to that.
Ford has gotten where they are today by getting back to basics by focusing on their core brands and getting lean. The last thing they could or even would want to do is add some of GM's mess to their own. Ford’s cash can’t support even part of GM’s problems.
GM may look weak and ready to be broke up by corporate raiders but like a blowfish they carry some huge liability and massive debt to be paid by any suitor. UAW, healthcare and pension obligations are still on the books. While several car companies could technically afford to "buy" GM they would sink in the very deep pool of red ink that likes behind the market cap value.
You know better than that. Product decisions made today will take 4+ years to see light of day. The fact is..the government has not given GM the money it needs to fix the problem....it has only given it a stay of execution. Any money the government gives to fix GM long term will come with product restrictions that will make them uncompetitive.
Because of the ramifications the scenerio I describe would have on the economy, I would rather be wrong than accurate this time.
I think they do want them to fail. Hence my extreme hatred for the media. I want to see them crushed into oblivion for their hand in all of this! And I mean ALL OF THIS!!! The american sheeple by and large, are a bunch of ****ing braindead morons!! Everyone driving foreign, I hope your ****box falls apart and nearly kills you!
Right now my idea family car would be a a RWD Malibu coupe or sedan with a powerful 6 cylinder engine, a manual transmission, & a well made comfortable interior. Both Toyota and Nissan makes vehicles like that via their Infiniti and Lexus divisions. BMW and even Mercedes makes such cars.
But not a single American car maker.
This is a person who has never owned a foreign car saying this
Last edited by guionM; Mar 2, 2009 at 06:26 AM.
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 8,504
From: Ohio
Although the media is much to blame for alot, consider this for a moment:
Right now my idea family car would be a a RWD Malibu coupe or sedan with a powerful 6 cylinder engine, a manual transmission, & a well made comfortable interior. Both Toyota and Nissan makes vehicles like that via their Infiniti and Lexus divisions. BMW and even Mercedes makes such cars.
But not a single American car maker.
This is a person who has never owned a foreign car saying this
CTS.
Especially if you look at where yoru examples are coming from: Infiniti, Lexus, BMW, and Mercedes.
Although, I concede the coupe is not here yet, the sedan is, and if GM makes it, the coupe should come relatively soon.
Registered User
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 3,597
From: oshawa,ontario,canada
Although the media is much to blame for alot, consider this for a moment:
Right now my idea family car would be a a RWD Malibu coupe or sedan with a powerful 6 cylinder engine, a manual transmission, & a well made comfortable interior. Both Toyota and Nissan makes vehicles like that via their Infiniti and Lexus divisions. BMW and even Mercedes makes such cars.
But not a single American car maker.
This is a person who has never owned a foreign car saying this
Registered User
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 766
From: Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada
Yo Guy, I have to agree with Darth and 97z26/m6...
CTS.... not necessarily a "mainstream affordable" car in the Malibu vein, but it does fall into the territory you mention - Infiniti, BMW and Mercedes. No coupe yet, but it's coming (not getting into all the stuff swirling around about GM's future here) and what a stunner it will be when it does arrive.
CTS.... not necessarily a "mainstream affordable" car in the Malibu vein, but it does fall into the territory you mention - Infiniti, BMW and Mercedes. No coupe yet, but it's coming (not getting into all the stuff swirling around about GM's future here) and what a stunner it will be when it does arrive.
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Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 9,705
From: Oakland, California
Affordable if you're willing to buy used though. Its fairly easy to find a low mileage used CTS for less than the cost of a new Malibu, plus being that it is a Cadillac it usually is well maintained and serviced regularly. Heck if you're willing to consider a 2005 model, you can probably find one with less than 40k miles for under $15K. (Yes, I have been shopping... but primarily for my mom. 
)
)
Registered User
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 3,597
From: oshawa,ontario,canada
Affordable if you're willing to buy used though. Its fairly easy to find a low mileage used CTS for less than the cost of a new Malibu, plus being that it is a Cadillac it usually is well maintained and serviced regularly. Heck if you're willing to consider a 2005 model, you can probably find one with less than 40k miles for under $15K. (Yes, I have been shopping... but primarily for my mom. )
)