"We're finalizing the four-door showcar of the ATS first,"
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As I mentioned in another post, weight loss doesn't have to be restricted to merely throwing expensive exotica at a car. Ford is doing the hard work of combing through every last component on the car dropping 1 pound here, 2 pounds there. Think of it as Mazda's "Gram Strategy" meets 2010 technology. They are also very cognisant of halting the dimensional creep which has recently afflicted our cars.
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Going by the Motor Trend article of a few months ago, driving enjoyment didn't really have that much to do with mass. Didn't the GT500 place better than the Corvette?
Good steering with lots of feel doesn't depend on the total weight being +/- 5%.
It's not like there's a noticeable difference in my Camaro with a 240 pound friend sitting in it. If I were on an autoX, sure, the time would be a little more, but general driving enjoyment is not affected.
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I don't know Z284ever but I'm well aware of his demands... I haven't read any negativity about the 2010 Mustang from him so I'm assuming it's his ideal car and perfectly suits his requirements... even if he hasn't yet driven it.
I don't know why we should even worry about an Alpha platform, which might not have the GenV? Is the GenV also a personal requirement or will a performance V6 suffice? Today is now. Camaro is built on Zeta for today.
Btw, just because a car can be 300lbs heavier than another, it doesn't automatically imply the lighter car is more fun to drive. I have read countless reviews of Falcons being more rewarding to drive than non-VE Commodores (which I can also attest to) when the Falcon was always the heavier car (with its 250lb heavier 5.4L V8 engine than the LS1 Commodore). The reason is that the Falcon was better engineered - better steering, suspension, balance, ride and handling... even if it was always the much slower car around just about any racetrack. The pleasure is all in the driving, not the racing.
I don't know why we should even worry about an Alpha platform, which might not have the GenV? Is the GenV also a personal requirement or will a performance V6 suffice? Today is now. Camaro is built on Zeta for today.
Btw, just because a car can be 300lbs heavier than another, it doesn't automatically imply the lighter car is more fun to drive. I have read countless reviews of Falcons being more rewarding to drive than non-VE Commodores (which I can also attest to) when the Falcon was always the heavier car (with its 250lb heavier 5.4L V8 engine than the LS1 Commodore). The reason is that the Falcon was better engineered - better steering, suspension, balance, ride and handling... even if it was always the much slower car around just about any racetrack. The pleasure is all in the driving, not the racing.
Last edited by SSbaby; Jan 30, 2010 at 11:26 PM.
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For instance, there is a huge difference in respective weights and a huge difference in relative speed between old and new models. That said, it's perhaps no surprise to anyone that the new models are almost always quicker and better drivers despite being heavier.
However, it's always anyone's prerogative to compare current models available on the market. We all can't agree on what ticks our boxes. Likewise, manufacturers can't always cater to the 99.99th percentile. I think you are just outside of that figure.
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One thing I know not to do is compare a current generation car to a past generation.
For instance, there is a huge difference in respective weights and a huge difference in relative speed between old and new models. That said, it's perhaps no surprise to anyone that the new models are almost always quicker and better drivers despite being heavier.
However, it's always anyone's prerogative to compare current models available on the market. We all can't agree on what ticks our boxes. Likewise, manufacturers can't always cater to the 99.99th percentile. I think you are just outside of that figure.
For instance, there is a huge difference in respective weights and a huge difference in relative speed between old and new models. That said, it's perhaps no surprise to anyone that the new models are almost always quicker and better drivers despite being heavier.
However, it's always anyone's prerogative to compare current models available on the market. We all can't agree on what ticks our boxes. Likewise, manufacturers can't always cater to the 99.99th percentile. I think you are just outside of that figure.
The 5th gen Camaro is the perfect car to you, but you can't buy it.
I could easily go and buy a 5th gen today, but I have no desire to own it.
Oh, the irony.
Last edited by Z284ever; Jan 31, 2010 at 11:25 AM.
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You don't notice a difference in the way your car drives when you're alone vs with passengers?
Last edited by Z284ever; Feb 1, 2010 at 02:54 PM.
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Weight, or mass as you like to say, is very important, however, where the mass is has as much or more impact as the actual total mass.
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Really, almost every single person is beyond that percentile. How many people work on their own cars? Of those, how many people substantially modify them? Of those, how many take them to the track? Of those, how many argue back and forth endlessly about fine details? Of those, how many people obsess about the weight penalties and advantages of one platform or another and how that would change the overall driving experience? Face it. We all need counseling.
However, I agree with you on this one. For what it is worth, the Camaro SS is lighter than a G8 GT. The G8 is more fun to drive. The Cobalt SS is lighter than an HHR SS - but the HHR is more fun to drive. They may be slower, but they are horrendous fun. Personally, I love wagons. Every time I drive a sportwagon I love them more and more.
I think Jalopnik agrees with me on their CTS Wagon commentary...
However, I agree with you on this one. For what it is worth, the Camaro SS is lighter than a G8 GT. The G8 is more fun to drive. The Cobalt SS is lighter than an HHR SS - but the HHR is more fun to drive. They may be slower, but they are horrendous fun. Personally, I love wagons. Every time I drive a sportwagon I love them more and more.
I think Jalopnik agrees with me on their CTS Wagon commentary...
Originally Posted by Jalopnik
The wagon has two other distinct advantages: visibility and surprise. The visibility portion is obvious — the more windows you have, the easier it is to see out. The surprise comes in when you boot the throttle. Deactivate the CTS's electronic stability control and the car gets sideways quicker than a Jersey Shore cast member. Do this in a sports car and you look like a show off. Do it in a sedan and you look reckless. Do it in a wagon and you look like law-abiding, button-down awesome.
The modern hot wagon movement may mark cars like the Audi RS2 and the BMW M5 as turning points, but it's vehicles like the CTS that bring the concept of fun wagoning back into the consumer consciousness. If you come across the uneducated and they ask you how much your five-door can carry, just smile, put one hand on their shoulder, and inform them that you don't use it to haul gear. You use it to haul ***. Then do a burnout so that they don't notice that your wayback is carrying a metric ton of Ikea boxes. (What can we say? Meatballs are tasty, and sometimes, you just need furniture.)
The modern hot wagon movement may mark cars like the Audi RS2 and the BMW M5 as turning points, but it's vehicles like the CTS that bring the concept of fun wagoning back into the consumer consciousness. If you come across the uneducated and they ask you how much your five-door can carry, just smile, put one hand on their shoulder, and inform them that you don't use it to haul gear. You use it to haul ***. Then do a burnout so that they don't notice that your wayback is carrying a metric ton of Ikea boxes. (What can we say? Meatballs are tasty, and sometimes, you just need furniture.)
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G8 more fun than Camaro? (Haven't driven either, sadly, but that sounds suspect... ).
HHR more fun than Cobalt? Well, I've not driven an HHR SS, but based on the way the regular HHR fits me, no way could I take that over the Cobalt SS!!
Interesting...
EDIT: Actually, maybe I could. I remember the regular HHR not having as much headroom as you would expect based on its body. BUT, the delta cars aren't exactly roomy for a tall guy like me either. And I do dig the way the HHR SS looks. Maybe it would be a better fit...
(Haven't driven either, sadly, but that sounds suspect... ).HHR more fun than Cobalt? Well, I've not driven an HHR SS, but based on the way the regular HHR fits me, no way could I take that over the Cobalt SS!!
Interesting...
EDIT: Actually, maybe I could. I remember the regular HHR not having as much headroom as you would expect based on its body. BUT, the delta cars aren't exactly roomy for a tall guy like me either. And I do dig the way the HHR SS looks. Maybe it would be a better fit...
Last edited by 96_Camaro_B4C; Feb 1, 2010 at 10:23 PM.
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If I were driving on a track, I'd probably notice.
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