Actually it is quite true.

Unions had their place (the key work there being HAD)...they have nothing to offer today.

I suspect most your "data" is coming from union or pro-union sources who probably don't like the fact that they've been voted down 2 to 1.

I have a suggestion for all those who don't like thier jobs...go get a different job. If you want your "work environment" to change then go get a different work environment or start your own business and create your own work environment. If you want to make more money, make yourself more valuable to your employer insted of just demanding more because you are "still there".

 

Exactly. The rest of us are able to manage their work and careers just fine without the "help" of a union. I can't think of a single time in my career where I thought I needed a union to do something for me.

Take responsibility for your own destiny, ferchrissakes!

 

Holy crap, we agree on something.

I started with nothing, decided what I wanted to become, and made it happen. Everyone has the same potential, and the same choice.

 

What kind of thinking? It wasn't like Toyota didn't have a choice to build a factory in anywhere in the world. No they came here and not only that they put plants in the cheaper areas of the country. Nothing wrong with that all the domestic automakers do it to. But instead of taking advantage of that cost savings to the fullest like Hyundai. They decided to keep raising the pay over and over until they paid more than GM or Ford does. For what? They should have been smarter than that. But here is the deal. Instead of building a plant in Mexico they wanted to take full advantage of being in the US. So they had to pay a bit more to the employees and then a bit more to keep them un-unionized but then they just kept paying and paying more. Well thats fine but here in the US its hard to stop that unless your lossing money. If the plants in Mexico had too high a payroll they would've just not gotten a raise this year and nobody here would've known. Toyota got sucked into a game that the Big 3 have played for decades and we all know how that game ends. Toyota thought they were above it and dam if they didn't come here and make the same mistake.

So you say its "this" kind of thinking that keeps manufacturing plants out of the US. I say re-read the story. Who made the mistake here? Was it the greedy American workers or was it a near-sighted Toyota.

 

Amen.

It's amazing how much sympathy automakers not named GM, Ford, or Chrysler get when its their turn to haggle with workers over the wages they decided to pay.

 

And god forbide that workers should unite and make companies live up to their word...

Toyota will soon be heavily dealing with legacy issues of retirees like the Big 2.5, so they'll have to step up their game a notch to hold their spot.
These are truly interesting times...we'll soon see where these new operating stratedgies will take us.

 

The “kind of thinking” I’m referring to is that a union is any kind of an answer or that people “need” a union to speak for them….the kind of thinking that the company a person works for is the enemy and is only out to exploit its workforce…the kind of thinking that some union thug can do a better job of negotiating for me than I can.

Unions mostly protect the lowest common denominator...rather than reward the valuable employee, they “protect” the ones who think the company owes them something just because they show up for work…unions are not much more than a watered down version of socialism; they only thing a union really looks out for today is itself.

That is the kind of thinking that drives business away…that drives companies to look to other countries for as much of its labor as it can.

Toyota needs to pay its workforce wages that make sense and if the employees don’t like their wages, then they need to go elsewhere for their employment.

I don’t claim that the decision is as easy one…I’m in the middle of making that decision for myself right now…I know it isn’t easy. However, no matter how difficult it might be, I don’t need someone else to speak for me or negotiate for me…I’ll decide for myself and live with the consequences.

 

Mr. Nashville, Your missing my point by a large margin. I'm not focusing on the union aspect here. I really don't care if the workers at the Toyota plants unionize. I'm not going to get into a union debate because its 2007 and there are lots of ways for employees and employers to settle issues or differences and unions are just one way. Although I would take a bit of satisfaction if the workers do unionize and stick it to Toyota.

The whole point is that Toyota screwed up and got cought for it. I don't care where these documents came from but it just shows to me Toyota's real colors. There is no way that Toyota could be as squeaky clean and nice as they lead on to have the success they do. We all know that kind of success takes some shrewd behavior someplace. But its easier to hide if your global and based in Japan, not Detroit.
When they decided to attack the North American market on home soil bringing plants here, hire workers and try to be "Americanized" they used every advantage possible. They attacked aging domestic car brands that had been burned by decades of union battles, pension and healthcare costs. Those companies forged the American way of life for millions of people, whether they wanted to or not. The whole idea of pensions, and heathcare and wages high enough to foster a middle class can trace many roots back to car companies. I think most of us live in that range to some degree. But the plan was flawed and now those corps. are hurting. Partly becouse foreign makes don't have this expensive history to pay for.
You would think with all Toyota's infinite wisdom they would've thought this through better.
But they fell for the trap. If you come here and build plants and try to be American so you can boost already high profits you'll have to play by the rules. They could've played the game easy like Hyundai and probably Honda (no news about them) paying honest competitive wages but lower than the domestic unionized brands. But they had to keep playing into a game that the domestic brands know all to well. When things are good its easy to be generous. But unlike the domestic brands Toyota hasn't had a market fluctuation in a long time, if ever. The domestic brands ebb and flow with the American economy so thats how they keep their wages in check to some extent. Toyota isn't affected by the American economy, in fact quite the contrary. The Yen vs. the dollar battle helps Toyota usually. So they came and gave too much to the American workers and now they are having second thoughts but its not easy to take back when they earn so much. So they wanted to be American well now they have American problems and they all can be traced right back to the source. They wanted to avoid unions and now they might get one. All because Toyota didn't think ahead. (How often can we say that.) So I hope they get burned just like the domestic brands have for decades. The big winter blast felt across the Northeast is actually a combined "I told you so!" uttered by generations of American auto employees.

 

I think you're all making a lot of assumptions.
Unions aren't at all like the "F.I.S.T." movies people get their stereotypes from. Like most stereotypes, they linger for generations after the fact.
I can only speak for the UAW that I work in, but I don't see at all them protecting bad employees...maybe that was 20, 40 or more years ago??(thugs??)

I see them working together with companies to establish fair work policies, that meet everyones requirements on both sides. Then once those are established, they provide avenues that assure everyone stays honest. My union has many times talked to employees about issues like absenteeism, how it hurts all of us. And also keeping the company honest on their absenteeism stats. Many of you with more education, skills who are more articulate, probably don't need someone to negociate or speak for you, but companies have lawyers and consulting firms doing just that for them, so I don't see what the big deal is.

Toyota obviously aren't idiots, paying good wages ensures people show up every day, do quality work and take pride in the job they do. Don't think so, look into absenteeism and turn-over rates in lower paying jobs. I personally had to go through a personel hiring agency, take SAT and motor-skills testing just to get a job here, before the concssions of 2-tier wage structures etc. Now they've lowered entry level pay and standards so anyone from any walk of life can get hired with NO experience in manufacturing. And I've seen more issues with quality and absenteeism since, nice people, just not making as much money or getting the same benefits, and don't care as much proportionately.

Toyota is caught trying to keep up with industry trends, now, downsizing and lowering wages or labor costs to be more competitive has become that trend.
BTW, Honda pays more with attendance bonuses included than a UAW counterpart makes...breaking up there wages makes them look more competitive.

For years we were being told cuts are neccesary to remain competitive, but now as we are seeing, no matter how profitable a company becomes, the demand for more cuts is never satisfied.
There used to be a time when companies shared their success with those who are partly responsible, now the investors are all that matter. Thank god this isn't catching on with small buisnesses, even small things like treating their employees to dinner after meeting a tough goal inspires them to push harder, knowing that they are appreciated.

Many employees are starting to feel just like you Robert, those who can't retire, about ready to go elsewhere, me included.

 

And that, to me, is the single scariest implication as far as what Toyota is doing right now. If 13 billion dollar-per-year profits aren't enough to at least keep your workers' wages in a holding pattern....I tend to think there's something wrong with the system.....

 

I may well have missed your point, however you are the one who said…

Although I may have inferred more from that statement than you intended; I don’t think my inference was that much of a stretch.

At any rate; sorry if I inferred too much!

 

I agree that success should be shared, that’s what bonuses are about…bonuses based on performance and meeting certain stated goals; bonuses than don’t happen if those goals aren’t met.

However, just because a company is making a profit; even a huge profit, doesn’t automatically mean that the front-line employees should get more wages/benefits than are justified by the value of the job they are doing. Every company, including Toyota, has to decide what wages to pay based on many factors – frankly, that decision is not and should not be up to either the individual employee or a union.

All unions (and especially the UAW) tend to do only what is best for the union…they are all about self-preservation and perpetuating themselves which is one of the reasons they take their member’s dues and spend them on political candidates and issues that the members do not support or are even significantly opposed to.

Unions have had their place but today, they are much more of a hindrance than a help.

 

You are obviously NOT a CEO!
I'm with you.


Don't forget guys... my sig has been unchanged since I joined this board.
I am not clarevoyant, but I am a pretty shrewd business guy, and I can see what's happening. The gas price thing took GM and Ford down faster than I expected 5 years ago, but aside from that, about everything I expected to see happen in a 10-year window is coming to pass... albeit a little earlier than I expected.
I still think Toyota will make it to the top.
And we American goobers will be a huge part of that success too.
But once the back of American manufacturers is broken, the wave of Toyota-followers that will come later is what scares me the most. Hyundai. Honda. Even the new Chinese stuff like Geely and Chery.
Right now we still have options and that's great, but it's not a given that we will have such options in the future.
There were great options in the 1940s, 50s, and even the 60s too, like Studebaker, Nash, DeSoto, Sunbeam, Hudson, and numerous others. Where are they today? At least they were put out of business by American competition on common playing fields... today our domestics are fighting offshore companies with radically different modus-operandi and business regulations.
IMO, BIG difference in circumstances, potentially the same result.

Food for thought.

 

yanks makin 10.97-14/hr are supposed to be the highest paid auto workers in the world? OUCH.. but i really feel for the others who make 50% less.

I always thought the lowest wages in the auto sector would be around 27/hr.

I hope the yota workers strike and wages/benefits topple the company in a decade.. take that japan..

 

$14/hr is a damm good wage in Alabama; especially when you tack on another 20-30% for benefits and especially when most jobs pay less...it has
a great deal to do with WHERE the job is.

Let's not forget that these jobs don't require degrees or a huge amount of experience to get started.