Toyota and others refuse to participate in Harbour
Toyota and others refuse to participate in Harbour
This was emailed to me by a friend. Sorry about some of the weird characters.
By Christie Schweinsberg
June 22, 2005
BIRMINGHAM, Ala. – It has been “an ongoing conversation” to get some auto
makers to include all their North American plants in Harbour Consulting
Inc.'s annual Harbour Report on productivity, says President Ron Harbour.
The 2005 North American report recently was released with some Toyota Motor
Corp., Honda Motor Co. Ltd. and Nissan Motor Co. Ltd. plants notably
absent, as is the sole Mercedes-Benz U.S. International Inc. plant in
Vance, AL.
As a result, Toyota Motor Mfg. North America Inc., Nissan North America
Inc., Honda of America Mfg. Inc. and Mercedes-Benz U.S. International Inc.
(MBUSI) are not in the report's overall assembly rankings by company.
The Japanese Big Three are unwilling to open the doors to all of their
North American plants, and MBUSI officials say they rely on their own
internal indices.
Toyota's Princeton, IN, truck plant, which builds the Tundra fullsize
pickup truck and Sequoia fullsize SUV, never has participated in the
Harbour Report.
“It's been a constant discussion about Princeton and they have just not
agreed to do it yet,” Harbour tells Ward's here at a recent conference.
Harbour says he has tried to appeal to Toyota's sense of integrity by
saying, “If you're going to see everybody else's (results) then you have to
put all of your (plants) in.” It hasn't worked thus far.
“As a company we value the Harbour Report,” says a Toyota spokesman. “It
is
a very positive way for the industry to benchmark productivity. However,
some of our plants and lines currently do not participate in the report.
The decision is evaluated on an ongoing basis and it's indeed possible
these plants and lines will participate in the future.”
For the report, Harbour Consulting surveys auto manufacturing facilities,
compiling how many hours it takes a plant on average to build a particular
model.
Because the report is made public in North America, Harbour says he is
unable to refuse to provide non-compliant auto manufacturers with their
competitors' results.
“We don't have the leverage (in North America) that we have in other parts
of the world,” he says. In contrast, Harbour productivity reports in
Europe, Asia and South America are kept private.
“I know that Princeton is a good plant so it wouldn't make their numbers
any worse,” Harbour says, discounting the possibility it may not be as much
of a star performer as Toyota's other North American manufacturing
facilities. All participated in this year's survey, save for the Lexus line
at its Cambridge, Ont., Canada, facility, which in 2004 was ramping up
production of the second-generation RX 330 cross/utility vehicle, and its
newly opened plant in Tijuana, Mexico, which builds the Tacoma compact
pickup truck.
Honda's Alliston No.1 plant in Canada, its new Lincoln, AL, plant and its
El Salto, Mexico, plant did not participate in this year's report.
On the topic of Mexico, Harbour takes issue with Nissan for not including
its plants in Aguascalientes and Cuernavaca. Nissan's stance is Mexico is
not part of North America and therefore the omission of the two facilities
is not “comparable” to omitting a plant in the U.S.
“The last geography class I had, Mexico was in North America,” Harbour
says. He notes General Motors Corp., Ford Motor Co. and Chrysler Group all
include their Mexican plants.
“So why not (Nissan)? Ultimately, I either exclude the Mexico plants from
the Big Three or get Nissan to comply. It's been a struggle.”
Unlike Toyota, Harbour says Nissan's annual productivity score would be
harmed if the two facilities were included.
Including Aguascalientes and Cuernavaca “would make their numbers worse and
I still believe that that's one of the reasons they don't want to put
(them) in,” he says.
Nissan did not include its new Canton, MS, plant in this year's report, but
Harbour says it will be next year.
June 22, 2005
BIRMINGHAM, Ala. – It has been “an ongoing conversation” to get some auto
makers to include all their North American plants in Harbour Consulting
Inc.'s annual Harbour Report on productivity, says President Ron Harbour.
The 2005 North American report recently was released with some Toyota Motor
Corp., Honda Motor Co. Ltd. and Nissan Motor Co. Ltd. plants notably
absent, as is the sole Mercedes-Benz U.S. International Inc. plant in
Vance, AL.
As a result, Toyota Motor Mfg. North America Inc., Nissan North America
Inc., Honda of America Mfg. Inc. and Mercedes-Benz U.S. International Inc.
(MBUSI) are not in the report's overall assembly rankings by company.
The Japanese Big Three are unwilling to open the doors to all of their
North American plants, and MBUSI officials say they rely on their own
internal indices.
Toyota's Princeton, IN, truck plant, which builds the Tundra fullsize
pickup truck and Sequoia fullsize SUV, never has participated in the
Harbour Report.
“It's been a constant discussion about Princeton and they have just not
agreed to do it yet,” Harbour tells Ward's here at a recent conference.
Harbour says he has tried to appeal to Toyota's sense of integrity by
saying, “If you're going to see everybody else's (results) then you have to
put all of your (plants) in.” It hasn't worked thus far.
“As a company we value the Harbour Report,” says a Toyota spokesman. “It
is
a very positive way for the industry to benchmark productivity. However,
some of our plants and lines currently do not participate in the report.
The decision is evaluated on an ongoing basis and it's indeed possible
these plants and lines will participate in the future.”
For the report, Harbour Consulting surveys auto manufacturing facilities,
compiling how many hours it takes a plant on average to build a particular
model.
Because the report is made public in North America, Harbour says he is
unable to refuse to provide non-compliant auto manufacturers with their
competitors' results.
“We don't have the leverage (in North America) that we have in other parts
of the world,” he says. In contrast, Harbour productivity reports in
Europe, Asia and South America are kept private.
“I know that Princeton is a good plant so it wouldn't make their numbers
any worse,” Harbour says, discounting the possibility it may not be as much
of a star performer as Toyota's other North American manufacturing
facilities. All participated in this year's survey, save for the Lexus line
at its Cambridge, Ont., Canada, facility, which in 2004 was ramping up
production of the second-generation RX 330 cross/utility vehicle, and its
newly opened plant in Tijuana, Mexico, which builds the Tacoma compact
pickup truck.
Honda's Alliston No.1 plant in Canada, its new Lincoln, AL, plant and its
El Salto, Mexico, plant did not participate in this year's report.
On the topic of Mexico, Harbour takes issue with Nissan for not including
its plants in Aguascalientes and Cuernavaca. Nissan's stance is Mexico is
not part of North America and therefore the omission of the two facilities
is not “comparable” to omitting a plant in the U.S.
“The last geography class I had, Mexico was in North America,” Harbour
says. He notes General Motors Corp., Ford Motor Co. and Chrysler Group all
include their Mexican plants.
“So why not (Nissan)? Ultimately, I either exclude the Mexico plants from
the Big Three or get Nissan to comply. It's been a struggle.”
Unlike Toyota, Harbour says Nissan's annual productivity score would be
harmed if the two facilities were included.
Including Aguascalientes and Cuernavaca “would make their numbers worse and
I still believe that that's one of the reasons they don't want to put
(them) in,” he says.
Nissan did not include its new Canton, MS, plant in this year's report, but
Harbour says it will be next year.
Re: Toyota and others refuse to participate in Harbour
Why... I can't believe we would even ask them to do such a thing!
Shame on us!
That's like broadcasting your attack plans and strategic operations on CNN the night before you go to war against a foreign nation... and heaven knows we wouldn't want to do that!
Why would they want to reveal what is actually going on inside their plants? All that matters is they are "Building cars in the US" and "Employing US workers", right? Doesn't matter if they are paying well, working decent amounts of hours, giving fair benefits, providing a safe environment, working efficient, etc. As long as their quality is good and their prices are good - the US public can just keep buying them and gloating about how great they are!
I better stop. I have work to do and I can't get started on this sh1+ this morning...
Shame on us!
That's like broadcasting your attack plans and strategic operations on CNN the night before you go to war against a foreign nation... and heaven knows we wouldn't want to do that!

Why would they want to reveal what is actually going on inside their plants? All that matters is they are "Building cars in the US" and "Employing US workers", right? Doesn't matter if they are paying well, working decent amounts of hours, giving fair benefits, providing a safe environment, working efficient, etc. As long as their quality is good and their prices are good - the US public can just keep buying them and gloating about how great they are!
I better stop. I have work to do and I can't get started on this sh1+ this morning...
Re: Toyota and others refuse to participate in Harbour
Originally Posted by ProudPony
Why... I can't believe we would even ask them to do such a thing!
Shame on us!
That's like broadcasting your attack plans and strategic operations on CNN the night before you go to war against a foreign nation... and heaven knows we wouldn't want to do that!
Why would they want to reveal what is actually going on inside their plants? All that matters is they are "Building cars in the US" and "Employing US workers", right? Doesn't matter if they are paying well, working decent amounts of hours, giving fair benefits, providing a safe environment, working efficient, etc. As long as their quality is good and their prices are good - the US public can just keep buying them and gloating about how great they are!
I better stop. I have work to do and I can't get started on this sh1+ this morning...
Shame on us!
That's like broadcasting your attack plans and strategic operations on CNN the night before you go to war against a foreign nation... and heaven knows we wouldn't want to do that!

Why would they want to reveal what is actually going on inside their plants? All that matters is they are "Building cars in the US" and "Employing US workers", right? Doesn't matter if they are paying well, working decent amounts of hours, giving fair benefits, providing a safe environment, working efficient, etc. As long as their quality is good and their prices are good - the US public can just keep buying them and gloating about how great they are!
I better stop. I have work to do and I can't get started on this sh1+ this morning...

In fact, I almost typed "I'm anxious to see ProudPony's response to this" in my reply to the thread. It does seem lame, and the Toyota guy didn't give a good reason. "We are continually evaluating" or something like that.
Darth, I'll see your

and raise you 

(if this keeps up, we'll hit the smiley limit, so I'll quit that now...)
Re: Toyota and others refuse to participate in Harbour
This is complete and utter crap. I can't believe this is the way a "free market" continues to do business, and no one does anything about it. Toyota is going to eat us for breakfast, and Hyundai is going to follow. Mark my words...we're doing nothing more than screwing ourselves...
I'm reminded of Randy Quaid's line in Days of Thunder...."We look like a monkey f**king a football out there."
I'm reminded of Randy Quaid's line in Days of Thunder...."We look like a monkey f**king a football out there."
Re: Toyota and others refuse to participate in Harbour
if i was a business man i wouldn't want them comming into my plant either ... especially if i could get the results for free about my compeditors without them getting the same from me.
Re: Toyota and others refuse to participate in Harbour
Let's see, this is what, exhibit 'Y' in the case of the auto industry not being played on a level field in America? Red Planet's case just keeps growing. 
What is Honda/Toyota/Nissan afraid of? Afraid their perfect little reputations will take a hit if we all get a look inside their plant? I'd say GM and Ford should pull out of the Harbours study but unfortunately, they need this tool to show the public how far they have come. When will the American people stop giving foreign competitors a free pass? I've never seen anything like it!

What is Honda/Toyota/Nissan afraid of? Afraid their perfect little reputations will take a hit if we all get a look inside their plant? I'd say GM and Ford should pull out of the Harbours study but unfortunately, they need this tool to show the public how far they have come. When will the American people stop giving foreign competitors a free pass? I've never seen anything like it!

Re: Toyota and others refuse to participate in Harbour
Originally Posted by 96_Camaro_B4C
I knew we could count on Proud to give as a good response. In fact, I almost typed "I'm anxious to see ProudPony's response to this" in my reply to the thread.
This tells me at least someone out there reads the crap I write from time to time!
Originally Posted by Jason E
Toyota is going to eat us for breakfast, and Hyundai is going to follow. Mark my words...we're doing nothing more than screwing ourselves...
Asians have a totally different mentality about business, ethics, stewardship, etc than does America or most of Europe. I can honestly tell you from my own experience that we have had Chinese people bosting about how bad they have screwed Americans on business deals we were part of in China. And yes, I am going back to China on business in December and January for us to start up a new plant in Kunshan, north of Shanghai. Those people as a whole are jealous of how well we Americans live, and they could care less if our economy over here tanks. We are a big bullseye for them, with a fat checkbook for those who hit the target.
Despite posts like RP made about using US-content, posts I have made with figures from the Federal Trade Commission, and a bazillion other posts that argue the long-term damage we do to our own domestic economy, people still flock to the Toyota dealer to buy these f***ing appliances and stop at the first gas-station they come to and spend $2 on one of those American Flag magnets or the "Support Our Troops" ribbons and go put it on their friggin' rice burner, and try to convince ME that they got the best value for their money.
I've spewed facts and figures and quotes and articles and reasoning and such until I'm blue in the face. If I've made 1 person think twice, it's enough to keep me fighting for domestic support.
But if a person won't listen and look around them and see what is happening... I hope THEIRS is the next f'''ing job that gets whacked due to one-way overseas trading, biased legislation, and non-conformance to trade agreements.
They can drive their Toyota to the unemployment line and hope they qualify for benefits...
Last edited by ProudPony; Jun 23, 2005 at 12:15 PM.
Re: Toyota and others refuse to participate in Harbour
Didn't I make this SAME argument when Robert Nashville and I went at it month's back? Didn't people on THIS BOARD, a board I would hope would be partial to domestic products, jobs, etc., find way more fault with my reasoning than the "pro free trade" argument he and others proposed? Did I not get flamed for making the same $2 American Flag sticker on the back of a Camry comment?
I need to stop reading this post because I have work to do as well, but this post is getting me all fired up again. I think Proud and I need to get together for a beer someday
I showed my bank-job-boss (the recent recipient of an '05 Accord when I tried selling her a G6 through my dealership...she wouldn't even come LOOK at the car after having a great former '91 GP and '96 GA) RP's recent rant about domestic content. At least I didn't get fired, and I did make her re-think her next purchase. But still....
Bankers are import-loving car snobs. Maybe I need a new job
I need to stop reading this post because I have work to do as well, but this post is getting me all fired up again. I think Proud and I need to get together for a beer someday
I showed my bank-job-boss (the recent recipient of an '05 Accord when I tried selling her a G6 through my dealership...she wouldn't even come LOOK at the car after having a great former '91 GP and '96 GA) RP's recent rant about domestic content. At least I didn't get fired, and I did make her re-think her next purchase. But still....Bankers are import-loving car snobs. Maybe I need a new job
Re: Toyota and others refuse to participate in Harbour
Heh, when my gf worked for a bank, her boss bought a freaking Matrix. My gf told her (when she saw the purchase) that she could have bought a Vibe, which is the exact same car underneath, but would be helping Pontiac.
Her boss said something lame like, "The Toyota is better. Toyotas get better gas mileage, and they are better."
GF: "They are EXACTLY the same underneath; they just look different on the outside."
Boss: "No. Toyota is better."
Me:
This was in freaking Rochester Hills, Michigan, a stone's throw from GM HQ and the engineering centers in Pontiac and Warren. Way to support the home team. Skank.

EDIT: If it makes you feel better, my dad works in the corporate offices for a bank in Ohio. He will NOT be buying a Toyota anytime soon. So it isn't all bankers.
Her boss said something lame like, "The Toyota is better. Toyotas get better gas mileage, and they are better."
GF: "They are EXACTLY the same underneath; they just look different on the outside."
Boss: "No. Toyota is better."
Me:

This was in freaking Rochester Hills, Michigan, a stone's throw from GM HQ and the engineering centers in Pontiac and Warren. Way to support the home team. Skank.

EDIT: If it makes you feel better, my dad works in the corporate offices for a bank in Ohio. He will NOT be buying a Toyota anytime soon. So it isn't all bankers.
Last edited by 96_Camaro_B4C; Jun 23, 2005 at 01:14 PM.
Re: Toyota and others refuse to participate in Harbour
I am right there with you guys.
I have a little story to add to this that is a little off topic but related.
My mother's 97' Toyota Camry 4-banger is the proud new owner of a broken connecting rod that has stopped the number 2 piston from functioning. The car has only 130k miles on it and those are mostly highway miles. How can this be, Toyota's are supposed to "last forever". Well my mother works for the University of Georgia college of agriculture in the research department and she is a big environmentalist. So the next car she wants is a Toyota Prius. She doesn't want to look at anything else and is convinced that this is the best car in the world. A question I have is: if this was a Chevy, would she still be in favor of buying a new Chevy? Probably not.
I have been extreamly vocal about steering her towards an American product but it is futile. When all is said and done, a new Prius would be right under 30k drive-out and that is insane. There are so many better choices out there.
Anyway, it is very frustrating trying to deal with people who are the "Toyota or nothing" people. Is it just me, or do those people seem to know the LEAST about cars and the industry?
I have a little story to add to this that is a little off topic but related.
My mother's 97' Toyota Camry 4-banger is the proud new owner of a broken connecting rod that has stopped the number 2 piston from functioning. The car has only 130k miles on it and those are mostly highway miles. How can this be, Toyota's are supposed to "last forever". Well my mother works for the University of Georgia college of agriculture in the research department and she is a big environmentalist. So the next car she wants is a Toyota Prius. She doesn't want to look at anything else and is convinced that this is the best car in the world. A question I have is: if this was a Chevy, would she still be in favor of buying a new Chevy? Probably not.
I have been extreamly vocal about steering her towards an American product but it is futile. When all is said and done, a new Prius would be right under 30k drive-out and that is insane. There are so many better choices out there.
Anyway, it is very frustrating trying to deal with people who are the "Toyota or nothing" people. Is it just me, or do those people seem to know the LEAST about cars and the industry?
Re: Toyota and others refuse to participate in Harbour
Despite posts like RP made about using US-content, posts I have made with figures from the Federal Trade Commission, and a bazillion other posts that argue the long-term damage we do to our own domestic economy, people still flock to the Toyota dealer to buy these f***ing appliances and stop at the first gas-station they come to and spend $2 on one of those American Flag magnets or the "Support Our Troops" ribbons and go put it on their friggin' rice burner, and try to convince ME that they got the best value for their money
A Toyota is an "appliance" yet you think GM offers what the public wants over Toyota right now? If GM builds what people want, you would not be getting your panties in a bunch for someone buying a Toyota. BTW I have an American flag on my Lexus and think it is funny I am actually pissing someone like you off with it. Sheesh.
Re: Toyota and others refuse to participate in Harbour
Originally Posted by Kevin_G
LOL
A Toyota is an "appliance" yet you think GM offers what the public wants over Toyota right now? If GM builds what people want, you would not be getting your panties in a bunch for someone buying a Toyota. BTW I have an American flag on my Lexus and think it is funny I am actually pissing someone like you off with it. Sheesh.
A Toyota is an "appliance" yet you think GM offers what the public wants over Toyota right now? If GM builds what people want, you would not be getting your panties in a bunch for someone buying a Toyota. BTW I have an American flag on my Lexus and think it is funny I am actually pissing someone like you off with it. Sheesh.
What is funny is that, while a good number of Toyotas sold here are built here, so it might not be completely oxymoronic to have a flag on the car, the Lexus line has a very small percentage of US content (IIRC).
BTW, I'm not saying you are a raving hypocrite for having a flag on a Japanese car; the flags are cool signs of unity against our current enemies (the jihadists). But you have to admit it is a little weird. Yes, yes, the American way is capitalism, and by buying what you think is the best vehicle for your dollar, you are participating in the capitalist system and encouraging competition, etc. ProudPony's point is that it isn't purely capitalism when the playing field is not level at the government/national level (tariffs, duties, labor laws, health care, etc.). I'm certainly not well-versed enough on the details in those areas to make the argument strongly, but Proud and others on the board have posted about it many times.
Stuff to think about, for sure.
Re: Toyota and others refuse to participate in Harbour
Originally Posted by Kevin_G
LOL
A Toyota is an "appliance" yet you think GM offers what the public wants over Toyota right now? If GM builds what people want, you would not be getting your panties in a bunch for someone buying a Toyota. BTW I have an American flag on my Lexus and think it is funny I am actually pissing someone like you off with it. Sheesh.
A Toyota is an "appliance" yet you think GM offers what the public wants over Toyota right now? If GM builds what people want, you would not be getting your panties in a bunch for someone buying a Toyota. BTW I have an American flag on my Lexus and think it is funny I am actually pissing someone like you off with it. Sheesh.
Like someone else said, competition is great if the playing field is level, butit is far from being fair. Hypocrite is the right word for someone with an American flag or "Suport our Troops" on their f*ing import. This is a subject that really gets my blood boiling


