Is this accounting for the supposed 2 or so year industry wide slow down that's being forecasted?

I'd love to see Ford do well again. Yes, the US focus sucks and the euro one is absolutely killer looking.

 

I'm a DOMESTIC FANBOY - first and foremost.

I have a bent towards Mustangs - not of my own doing but it's there none the less, so I follow Ford and Mustang info closely for hobby and work both.

I make parts for all of them, so they all contribute to my paycheck and I am sincerely interested in them all... except Toyota.
(My company is not good enough to make parts for them. )

That being said honestly, and out of the way now, there is one characteristic about Ford that has always rung true - even to this day.
That company - more than any other automaker - has demonstrated that they can turn themselves (for good or bad) faster than any other company making cars - period. They are a unique entity, unlike any other model out there. If there was a car company that needed to pull of a quick change and make it work, I'd bet on Ford more than any other to be the ones to pull it off. GRANTED - it takes the right team, and management... all I'm saying is that I have seen them do it 3 or 4 times in my life already, and they are capable of doing it again. 6 years might be stretching it a bit, but I will acknowledge taht things are different this time because there are way more players in the field, and the target products are cars more than trucks/SUVs this time around, so it will be a tougher campaign.

Basic plan? They are indeed trying to stop the bleeding first (become profitable and stop losing money), then try to heal the wound itself (bad product choices, bad business decisions, etc that got them in the hole to begin with). They must come in that order, or you bleed to death while creating great ideas for someone else to use after you go out of business. Almost a case in point with DCX separating from Daimler-Benz. The new Hemi powerplants, new designs, new Viper, and oodles of SRT stuff, not to mention the Challenger, ALL could have been lost if a buyer was not found because Benz was going to cut DCX loose anyways. New product can certainly pull you out of a hole, but it takes capital and money to produce the product, and that takes cash or lenders to get it to market and advertise it - neither of which are easily found in a company hemmoraging huge red numbers. So much for the business case.

In this day and time, I don't ever expect to see another mind-boggling new product like the original Suburban was, the first Corvette, the 64 Mustang, the Explorer, etc - real gotta-have "trendsetters". Gone are the days of 500k-700k units of one car/year. In this market of 20-odd brands and 150+ model choices, any vehicle that cracks 100k units/year is a huge hit, and the "wow" factor has got to be almost impossible to find anymore.
Honestly, how many ways can you package 2-seats and 4-tires, 4-seats and 4 tires, or 7-seats and 4 tires?
At this point, I'm happy to find something that has great lines, great quality, a little "spirit", and a decent price. Gadgets and goodies are doing more to put people into vehicles these days than exterior lines and trim peices IMO, and that's kinda sad, but honestly - outside of us gearheads, how many Joe and Jane Does on the street could identify an Accord from a Corolla, much less identify a Sephia, Camry, LS300... or tell a Rondo from a Rio from a RAV 4? Cars (and even SUVs), like other appliances, are really losing their spirit IMO, and as much as it kills us gearheads, we may as well accept that. All we can do is hope that the recent surge in interest in muscle cars and pony cars of 30 years ago plays out for a while.

Bottom line - I don't really look for anything "earth-shaking" from GM, Ford, Chrysler, or anyone else anymore, I just see gadgets-galore being packaged in either the sharp-edgy style box, or the rounded-bubbly style box - which ever you prefer in the color of your choice.

 

Great points Proud Pony and I too share your homer attitude for the Domestic brands. To me the next great change in the auto world is the transition from gasoline to other forms or energy. The hydrogen, electric or any other type of power difference will change the look and feel of the car/truck like never before. I think about GM's "skateboard" power train that would accept any number of bodies to be placed on top. I think the first automaker that can really bring the switch from gas to another form of energy at the lowest cost and most practical will win itself a sales leader like the VW Bug or Ford Model A. Maybe the Volt will be a huge hit??

GM, Chrysler and BMW were smart to pool resources and personal in a suburban Detroit location to work on the next gen of hybrid tech and alternative energy power trains. I would love to see the day when the 3 Domestic brands begin to work together for the common good of all three. With new CAFE laws on the horizon maybe they will.

 

Yeah good read, myself I dont want to see the US auto industry fail because its a huge ---> to use a worn out term <--- technology watershed, IIRC the domestic auto industry generates more patents than any other industry in the US. If they fail (nasty economic repercussions aside) what do we have left, aside from the medical, aeronautics, and the government as big technology generators and by dent of the latter, technology that is not really useful in a broad and meaningful way. Of course that is one thing, I'm also firmly convinced companys outside the US an truly build a Mustang or Camaro or Vette for that matter.

 

Good point. I know for a fact they could build it outside the US... the laws of physics are the same in China and Japan that they are here.
But would the car be the same? Would you still feel the same about owning and driving it? No way I could.

To me personally, the Mustang and Corvette (and Camaro to the Canadian extent that it was) are as American as apple pie, and they MUST be maintained that way, or die. Some of the appeal they hold is simply due to their heritage. Drive a Mustang on the Autobahn in Germany and you will get thumbs-up and huge smiles from people of all walks of life. Even the guy in the Carrera GT that is infinitely faster and more expensive acknowledges you... more than you get in an S-class Mercedes or BMW 6-series on the same road. American musclecars and ponycars are still huge in Europe - Sweden and the UK are dotted with them and their owners love the attention they draw. Know why they like them and pay premiums to own them there? Americana. Those cars represent America and what our driving spirit is all about.

Z284ever mentioned last summer that there is a "something special" factor that is being lost in cars today. I agreed, and claimed the spirirt they exhude is what needs refreshing. That kind of spirit and energy must come from the people who design and build these cars. These people should be passionate about the car and know it's history... they should want to be there building those cars... and they should be proud to put their names on the cars when they are done. What SVT did with their engine program was simply stellar - having the builders sign the engine... what more pride could you instill in the process than that?

I could deal with selling less units or de-content of the vehicle and never blink. I could choke-down uglier designs and cheaper materials if the price reflected it and the quality did not suffer. But I can not and will not accept a Mustang built overseas, or even having a Mustang that is heavily laden with offshore components. I feel the same way about the Corvette, and the new Camaro as well.

Take it a step further... I'd actually love to see Ford and GM start an advertising campaign that concentrates on the domestic content of their vehicles, their corporate average of domestic content, and some figures that show how many jobs their products are related to inthe US. Trickle-down economics and all... you'd be amazed how many people in the USA are directly or indirectly employed because of domestic auto manufacturing. Besides, if we don't take pride in our own product, how can we expect anyone else (or any other country) to?

 

You know what? I believe Ford can turn it around... but I don't believe they believe in themselves enough to do so.

It wasn't very long ago that Taurus/Sable were trendy sedans that pulled Ford out of a financial mess. Then Americans found favor with Accord, and now Camry.

Why is the Ford brand on shoppers noses? Maybe (I'm guessing here) but the Nasser years weren't very constructive. I've read GuionM's posts, and Ford might have had great product looming under Nasser, but the powertrains and technology, quality and (maybe) the F-series' success being too one-dimensional (not to mention Explorer's woes) was perhaps Ford's undoing. It might take years to reverse the proud reputation that Ford once had. Just like it might take GM years to reverse its sliding market share, once the tough calls are made <insert brand management here> Chevrolet could once again dominate the US market. Chrysler has also proven that American products, if designed well, can succeed in the market place.

All it takes is foresight and guts and more attention to aftersales service. To stand up to the Japanese challenge, which when viewed openly, is riding on reputation alone (IMHO) - the products, in general, are nothing overly inspiring.

Ford has Mustang, but needs more inspiring product. And I don't mean just competent product as the Japanese may be able to succeed with competent product but Ford (and GM) cannot afford to.

Just my 2c.

 

So, does it bother you that so much of the work on Camaro is taking place in Australia?

 

In a word - yes, it honestly does.

Did you notice how I tenored my commets to concentrate on Corvette and Mustang, but "included" Camaro?

Several of the key ingredients for the recipe are there for a successful Camaro comeback. Heritage is there. Styling appears to be there. Performance is likely there. But in all honesty, if the "spirit" of the car does not come through, I predict certain failure in the long-term.

Bowling Green, KY is a legendary facility. People make pilgrimages there. That kind of reverence does not come cheap and is not common. Ever hear of people flocking to Georgetown, KY to see where their Camry or Avalon got built or to visit the Camry Museum? Likewise, do you think Camaro folks would want to plan a pilgrimage to Australia to visit where their American Musclecar came from? Hmmm... not thinking so. Love to go there, but not for that reason!

I may be completely wrong, but I think you will see a reduced interest in Camaro - especially from the most loyal - if it is not largely manufactured and assembled in North America. You can do developmental work wherever you like, but it needs to be "connected" to the people making it and buying it by being intertwined in the economy it lives in.

Likewise.. I know for a fact that Aussies can design a friggin awesome car. Styling, performance, etc - just look at what Holden and FPV have turned out in the last few years. BUT - if an Aussie bloke does the design, the interior, the drivetrain, and the execution, then IMO it honestly should not be called a Camaro. Call it another Commodore or Monero or something that has status in Australia, or give it an all new name and start from scratch. I am consistent in this... I said the same thing here on this board back when the GTO discussion was so heated.

REMEMBER... in my eyes, "developmental work" means just that... developing some parts or pieces, or testing the system(s). That is FAR different from designing and building, which means jobs with longevity in my eyes.

An Aussie or two working here in the US as American citizens, owners of some Camaros in the past - no problem. That is no different than Hau Thai-Tang being the manager of Mustang program... even though he is born in Asia and immigrated here, he respectes the Mustang, studied it in depth, understands what it is and what it stands for, and had no intention of changing that recipe - in fact he never said it was anything less than an honor to be working on that particular vehicle and he was going to remain loyal to the followers of it at all costs.

So... In my own words...
ANYONE from ANYWHERE is welcome to come and join the party - we make Corvettes and Mustangs here in the USA - the way we like them. If you like them to, come on in and join in the fun! Hopefully, the same will be true of the Camaro. Just don't try to change the theme of the party, or the recipe for the food we serve there. If you think your recipe is better or your style of party is better - GREAT!... go start your own party and we'll see how you do! Best of luck to you!

Does that explain my feelings to you?
I don't mean to sound snooty or arrogant, just trying to blend a little humor and logic to explain my position.

 

Yep. I agree with you. Thanks for taking the time.

 

Don't forget the Viper. Although blunt and brutish it's built in Dertroit where it should be.

Another point is while I've been to Bowling Green to see the Vette plant and museum I don't think many went to the old Rouge complex to see the Mustangs built there, nor will they venture too far down I94 to Flat Rock for current production. However Ford has done amazing things at a plant simply named "The Henry Ford" Heritage Rouge plant where the F150's are built. I've never been there but I hear the tour is excellent and they even show you the grass and recycled water set up on the roof.

As for the Camaro I have no problem with some development work on the Zeta platform being done in Austrailia as they are quite simply better at RWD engineering these days than domestic GM. But don't make the mistake of thinking that no work is being done in the US and that GM engineering isn't doing the lions share of development overall. They are and the Camaro will be just as North American as the 4th gen was. It's not going to be built there either. GM made some decisions in the last few decades that many other domestic brands made too and that was building cars cheaper in Mexico or Canada than the US. They would never have done that or simply wouldn't have needed to if the foreign competition wasn't so fierce. We won't get into to the domestic brands and their overhead costs associated with a legacy of American business other than to say that younger foreign companies build cars cheaper and make more profit so GM had to find other places to build cars to stay in business.
Times change and I'm sure at this time GM wishes it was building the Camaro stateside because of the US vs. Canadian dollar situation. But Oshawa is a great modern plant and will do the Camaro well even if it is north of the boarder.

 

Well I don't agree with you. Apart from Corvette and CTS-V. GM build mundane bread and butter FWD cars. You talk about the spirit but spirit died when Zarella and others, before him arrived.

Holden has resuscitated the muscle car for GM and it took a world visionary like Lutz to make GM stand up and take notice. Holden has a BMW beater, costing a fraction of the price... and all you can do is bemoan the fact that it's designed in Australia and not the Good ol' US of A. Well the not invented here syndrome is what has brought GM undone, over and over and over again.

I feel no pity for you if that is your attitude.

 

Well, you know how to find a nerve.. I'll give you that.
I think you read the post with a short-sighted attitude and have your own blinders on that are preventing you from seeing my simple point, and you OBVIOUSLY don't know how to see a compliment when you get one.

FIRST - I beat you to the point that Holden (and FPV) both make killer cars... V8, RWD, 4-door and 2-doors too for that matter. So CERTAINLY you did not think I was griping about what their capability is? ... 'cause I wasn't. Nowhere did I say they don't design/build awesome cars.

SECOND - Never said that Holden or Ford didn't have a BMW-beater - both of them at better prices. But how does that come into the conversation when I am talking about doing developmental work on Camaro? Are you trying to say that Camaro needs to be a "BMW-beater"? See, in my eyes you are taking the conversation somewhere WAY off base with that comment alone. Ponycars are not competition for world-class cars.

THIRD - Mundane FWD cars?!?! You could easily get your posterior handed to you by some GP/GTs, Monte SS's, Northstar-powered RWD sedans, or other LSx-engined vehicles - regardless of being FWD or RWD. Since you mentioned GM vehicles, should we mention Suby WRXs and such?
Need to open the door a little more and let some light shine in there partner... it was bleek without the F-bods, but not THAT bleek.

You don't have to look far on this very board to see ME b1+ching about how the US market NEEDS the kind of styling and quality they are producing in Oz. I am an ADVOCATE of bringing the Falcon, Commodore, and Utes up here. But get this straight...

I WANT THEM HERE, BUT I DO NOT WANT ANY OF THEM TO BE CALLED MUSTANG, CAMARO, CORVETTE, GTO, OR ANYTHING ELSE ROOTED IN OUR PAST HERE ALREADY.

Can I be any more clear than that?

With all due respect - you have no idea what the ponycar market is like here in the USA except what you see on the internet or in a book, and I doubt if you have ridden in any 40-year-old Mustangs or Camaros lately, or gone to any shows or meets. There IS a pride in these cars, and a loyalty that is second to none. They enjoy the highest return-buyer rates in the industry at 1 in 3. These are actually icons or symbols of Americana with a cult-like following. To have one of these vehicles done completely off-shore is akin to having your national flag made in China... it just doesn't seem right (and isn't right IMO). If the car is NOT going to maintain it's direct link to the processes, trends, people, and communities that made it a legend in the first place, it needs to die and stay dead, and let a new dawn rise on yet a new vehicle... apparently one that is better in many if not every way.

Categorically, I refuse to accept the corporate practice of "pimping" a reputable name. If the vehicle is true to it's roots or has slowly evolved into something different than what it began, fine - leave the name alone and I'm good with it. But if it's a new beast from a new place, it needs a new name.

As for pity... don't waste your empathy on me my friend!
I personally think GM, Ford, and Chrysler have plenty of good product available up here. The 300 and Charger are stout and well-made vehicles. The Fusion and Taurus are tops in their respective classes. The MKZ and MKX are doing excellent. Edge is a really nice ride. The new Malibu is looking like a hit already. Lucerne is getting great reviews. F150 stayed on top again (31 in a row). Suburban/Tahoe is hitting new highs with hybrid technology. I can go on, and on.
I think our point up here (at least mine) is that we want to SEE and FEEL some passion, soul, and spirit in some of our old namesake vehicles again - not just a nice fit and finish or good quality. These cars need a soul... like we felt and saw back 20-40 years ago.
I don't care if new cars come from Oz... no problem whatsoever. But if they are totally offshore born and bred, then I don't want to see an all-American name slapped on it when it gets here.

Don't fool yourself about GM or Ford being putzy-clutzy companys either... Ford produced a supercar that bested the tops in the world for less than half the price and went from concept to selling units in less than 3 years. GM currently has the lightest, fastest, most efficient supercar on the market for under $100k available to anyone anywhere. These feats take brainpower and committment. I'll certainly grant you their management can stick their heads so far up their poopshooters that they have 2 eyes in each socket, but they still have the potential. I'm not seeing Holden or FPV offer supercars for pennys.

The carmakers in Australia make fantastic cars that we could do well to get up here. But no matter how great they are (Holden or FPV), they will NEVER have the kind of following or heritage HERE that the Mustang, Camaro, and Corvette enjoy. That is not a slam on your nation's ability to produce a great product... it is a statement about the HERITAGE of OUR old, established, and accepted products (be they ugly, slow, and sh1++y or not), and why I don't want to see them change.

How would you feel down there if I slapped a new front bumper cover and seats in a Taurus, shipped it down there and called it a Falcon or swapped moldings and dash covers on a Malibu and called it a Commodore?
Our Taurus and Malibu are GREAT cars up here, but I doubt they would be well-received in Oz wearing the historically significant badges of Falcon and Commodore.

In parting, please do not insult me by accusing me of "bemoaning the fact" that a car was designed in Australia when I did absolutely no such thing. I'd love it and welcome it here instantly... I just wouldn't want it to wear CAMARO on it's fenders.

 

Alright, I'll cut to the chase as your post is too theatrical and too wordy... in short too much BS for my liking.

Did you not answer to the question "So, does it bother you that so much of the work on Camaro is taking place in Australia?

To which you answered "In a word - yes, it honestly does."

Well if you can say it in one word (YES), is that not bemoaning?

www.dictionary.com: bemoaning: "To express disapproval of or regret for; deplore".

Don't insult my intelligence, please. Just because you're a born and raised yankee doodle die American does not imply your comments are more worthy than mine, mate!

You imply other crap that we don't understand pony cars... but you make some wild and inaccurate assumptions.

It seems that with a tumbling market share only the Americans understand GM better than most.

As for the FWD handing me my ****! Phwwwttt. More crap.

Rant over!!!

 

LOL. Geeez....his point went WAY over your head.

Too funny.

 

Uh, he explained why it bothers him. (Forgive me ProudPony for speaking up for you here) I don't think that he doesn't think GM should be utilizing its Aussie bretheren to develop a car; it's that he thinks the Camaro is specifically American, so EITHER:

1) If GM wants to develop a new Camaro, he'd prefer that it be done in the U.S. where the car's roots lie. OR,

2) If GM wants to develop some hot new coupes / sedans / wagons / utes / whatevers down under, that is great, but he'd prefer that they not grab names from GM's American lexicon. Don't develop the next Camaro or Chevelle down under. Give them their own names to become a new part of our (joint) fabric. Got a great large sports sedan? Bring it on over. (See: G8). I think Proud is fine with that; he just would not be fine if that car had been called "Bonneville" or "Catalina."

He made it quite clear that he meant no disrespect to our brothers down under (and in fact was quite complimentary). He simply wants the heritage to be kept if they are going to be resurrecting iconic names from the past that link back to the biggest years of the domestic auto biz.

Not to speak for Proud, as he's more than able, but that is how I interpreted his comments, and I think you took them way out of context.

And I'm not saying I'm fully in agreement (though of course it would be neat if the Camaro had been done more fully in the U.S. - but hey, for the last many many years of its life, it was built outside the U.S. anyway...); that's just how I'm interpreting Proud's points.