"Torana hopes still alive" - Drive.com.au
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"Torana hopes still alive" - Drive.com.au
http://www.drive.com.au/Editorial/Ar...ID=19138&vf=12
Torana hopes still alive
Andrew Heasley, The Age, 09/08/06
Holden wants a small performance sedan, writes ANDREW HEASLEY.
Holden's boss wants the company to make a smaller rear-wheel-drive sedan to rival the BMW 3-Series.
"I would tell you for a fact that we're still very interested in that," Holden chairman and managing director Denny Mooney said. "I wouldn't mind at some point in time trying to build a smaller performance rear-wheel-drive car."
The idea comes from a recognition that buyers are choosing smaller cars but still desire, Mr Mooney says, the driving attributes of a performance sedan that's affordable. "Quite honestly, there aren't any rear-wheel-drive, affordable performance-oriented cars in the market. If you want to buy a smaller rear-wheel-drive performance car you've got to buy a BMW. And they're not inexpensive cars. They're not affordable."
Such a car would be a logical fit, Mr Mooney adds. "I think it would be absolutely within the Holden image: a rear-wheel-drive, more performance-feeling kind of vehicle, with great ride and handling, but make it affordable."
That "performance" he says, is not a narrow definition measured in the sprint to 100 km/h, but a car that is responsive in handling dynamics as well, Mr Mooney says.
"There are plenty of people out there that love cars, love to drive cars, like to go out on a country road, drive a car and have it handle. That's what I think our heritage has been. That's why I think it would be a market we could do very well in."
How affordable? Think mid-$20,000s to mid-$30,000s, and powered either by a four-cylinder or six-cylinder engine, he says.
"With a four-cylinder you get fuel efficiency, but with rear-wheel-drive you'll get better weight distribution. You put a world-class suspension in there. It hits a market that, frankly, isn't there today."
The new Commodore is built on a flexible architecture that allows for short and long-wheelbase manufacturing, but it can't shrink small enough, cheaply enough, for a 3-Series rival.
That's because all the associated tooling and hardware has been made for the Commodore-sized car, Mr Mooney says.
"I don't know that you'd try to shrink this (Commodore platform) down. We've looked at that, but you've got to get the cost down if you want to hit the price points."
Instead, Holden would scour the GM "parts bin" to find a suitable donor chassis, he says.
Holden whetted the appetite of compact sport sedan fans at the Sydney motor show in 2004 when it took the covers off a metallic hot-pink Torana TT36 concept car. It was built on a modified Pontiac Solstice chassis, a rear-wheel-drive compact convertible sports car in the US.
"We were looking at that (Solstice) hardware as a potential base . . . to do a sedan off that. That's fundamentally what we'd do," Mr Mooney says.
The small car could be built in the same Adelaide plant as the new Commodore, he says, occupying up to half the factory's capacity.
Holden is now recognised within the GM world as expert in rear-wheel-drive car development.
Andrew Heasley, The Age, 09/08/06
Holden wants a small performance sedan, writes ANDREW HEASLEY.
Holden's boss wants the company to make a smaller rear-wheel-drive sedan to rival the BMW 3-Series.
"I would tell you for a fact that we're still very interested in that," Holden chairman and managing director Denny Mooney said. "I wouldn't mind at some point in time trying to build a smaller performance rear-wheel-drive car."
The idea comes from a recognition that buyers are choosing smaller cars but still desire, Mr Mooney says, the driving attributes of a performance sedan that's affordable. "Quite honestly, there aren't any rear-wheel-drive, affordable performance-oriented cars in the market. If you want to buy a smaller rear-wheel-drive performance car you've got to buy a BMW. And they're not inexpensive cars. They're not affordable."
Such a car would be a logical fit, Mr Mooney adds. "I think it would be absolutely within the Holden image: a rear-wheel-drive, more performance-feeling kind of vehicle, with great ride and handling, but make it affordable."
That "performance" he says, is not a narrow definition measured in the sprint to 100 km/h, but a car that is responsive in handling dynamics as well, Mr Mooney says.
"There are plenty of people out there that love cars, love to drive cars, like to go out on a country road, drive a car and have it handle. That's what I think our heritage has been. That's why I think it would be a market we could do very well in."
How affordable? Think mid-$20,000s to mid-$30,000s, and powered either by a four-cylinder or six-cylinder engine, he says.
"With a four-cylinder you get fuel efficiency, but with rear-wheel-drive you'll get better weight distribution. You put a world-class suspension in there. It hits a market that, frankly, isn't there today."
The new Commodore is built on a flexible architecture that allows for short and long-wheelbase manufacturing, but it can't shrink small enough, cheaply enough, for a 3-Series rival.
That's because all the associated tooling and hardware has been made for the Commodore-sized car, Mr Mooney says.
"I don't know that you'd try to shrink this (Commodore platform) down. We've looked at that, but you've got to get the cost down if you want to hit the price points."
Instead, Holden would scour the GM "parts bin" to find a suitable donor chassis, he says.
Holden whetted the appetite of compact sport sedan fans at the Sydney motor show in 2004 when it took the covers off a metallic hot-pink Torana TT36 concept car. It was built on a modified Pontiac Solstice chassis, a rear-wheel-drive compact convertible sports car in the US.
"We were looking at that (Solstice) hardware as a potential base . . . to do a sedan off that. That's fundamentally what we'd do," Mr Mooney says.
The small car could be built in the same Adelaide plant as the new Commodore, he says, occupying up to half the factory's capacity.
Holden is now recognised within the GM world as expert in rear-wheel-drive car development.
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Re: "Torana hopes still alive" - Drive.com.au
Originally Posted by crYnOid
That being said I am sure that once Holden is done with GMNA's Zeta/Zegma/Zeta II, which should be the VF cars, it will begin working on a world class compact RWD architecture. If for nothing else than to get for themselves and Caddy potent RWD performance sedans. A side note would be that Buick in China and Pontiac in the US would likely battle like monkey's on meth to get access to that chassis.
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Re: "Torana hopes still alive" - Drive.com.au
I'll state some facts/issues, and you come to your own conclusion as to how much that article means.
When Bob Lutz was making early announcements on the Solstice, he envisioned the chassis as flexible, and able to spawn a wide range of cars including a sports sedan and sports coupe. he even went so far as to call the chassis the new Mustang.
Wilmington Deleware was chosen because in original plans, the factory was to be the home of this all-purpose car. It makes about 35,000 Skys and Solstices annually in a corner of the plant, but the remainder of the plant has an additional capacity of over 160,000 vehicles.
Europe's FWD Cadillac BLS was to be GM's beach head to what was planned as a small, RWD, BMW 3 series competitor.
Pontiac was supposed to get a version of this small RWD sports sedan, as part of it's "American BMW" excitement division makeover.
The "Torana" sedan was done as a competition between GMH and GMNA as a proposal for a small sedan.
Since that time, Lori Queen (Vechicle line executive for small cars) came out against RWD for small sports sedans.
Since that time, GM hit a rough patch & has decided to combine Pontiac & Buick, reducing Pontic's planned model lineup and cut back on the number of factories it has.
Also since that time, it appears the next Cadillac BLS will go on Espilon 2's FWD/AWD chassis instead of a RWD one.
And although we'll know soon, Wilmington is a potential site for the next Camaro if GM decides to make it separately from the rest of the Zeta line.
Personally, I think it would be a mistake for GM not to make a RWD sedan line. However, the stars don't look like their lining up. Unless Holden intends to make a shortened Commodore VE, I don't see any indications as of yet that GMNA is going to do the chassis for one.
BTW: the Holden proposal for a small sports sedan lost to a GMNA proposal.
When Bob Lutz was making early announcements on the Solstice, he envisioned the chassis as flexible, and able to spawn a wide range of cars including a sports sedan and sports coupe. he even went so far as to call the chassis the new Mustang.
Wilmington Deleware was chosen because in original plans, the factory was to be the home of this all-purpose car. It makes about 35,000 Skys and Solstices annually in a corner of the plant, but the remainder of the plant has an additional capacity of over 160,000 vehicles.
Europe's FWD Cadillac BLS was to be GM's beach head to what was planned as a small, RWD, BMW 3 series competitor.
Pontiac was supposed to get a version of this small RWD sports sedan, as part of it's "American BMW" excitement division makeover.
The "Torana" sedan was done as a competition between GMH and GMNA as a proposal for a small sedan.
Since that time, Lori Queen (Vechicle line executive for small cars) came out against RWD for small sports sedans.
Since that time, GM hit a rough patch & has decided to combine Pontiac & Buick, reducing Pontic's planned model lineup and cut back on the number of factories it has.
Also since that time, it appears the next Cadillac BLS will go on Espilon 2's FWD/AWD chassis instead of a RWD one.
And although we'll know soon, Wilmington is a potential site for the next Camaro if GM decides to make it separately from the rest of the Zeta line.
Personally, I think it would be a mistake for GM not to make a RWD sedan line. However, the stars don't look like their lining up. Unless Holden intends to make a shortened Commodore VE, I don't see any indications as of yet that GMNA is going to do the chassis for one.
BTW: the Holden proposal for a small sports sedan lost to a GMNA proposal.
. What can I say, I am a dreamer 
.
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Re: "Torana hopes still alive" - Drive.com.au
KappaII? Torana/Grand Am? its a bit too much overlap though for a pontiac, but if the G5 is indeed a stop-gap car, then maybe I don't sound as stupid? lol
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Re: "Torana hopes still alive" - Drive.com.au
Kappa II as I've said for a little bit. The Torana was nothing, nowhere near what Kappa was when it was a concept. The Holden team took it too far away from Kappa, which pissed off the General when it was a concept because it got the Kappa community excited.
The Torana is nowhere near Kappa and won't happen under that name.
The Torana is nowhere near Kappa and won't happen under that name.
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Re: "Torana hopes still alive" - Drive.com.au
Originally Posted by guionM
Since that time, Lori Queen (Vechicle line executive for small cars) came out against RWD for small sports sedans.
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Re: "Torana hopes still alive" - Drive.com.au
Originally Posted by Z284ever
She doesn't think Americans will buy small premium cars.
Yes. That's why BMW's 3 series is such a failure here.
Wait, there are more of those than non-rental Cobalts/Cavaliers in my company's parking lot. Hmm, I have a friend who likes the CTS but says that it's too big.
I guess it takes a while to right a big ship.
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Re: "Torana hopes still alive" - Drive.com.au
Originally Posted by teal98
Yes. That's why BMW's 3 series is such a failure here.
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Re: "Torana hopes still alive" - Drive.com.au
Originally Posted by Z284ever
Exactly. In fact, I believe that the US is the 3 series' largest market.
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Re: "Torana hopes still alive" - Drive.com.au
Originally Posted by teal98
Do you know why?
Although Bob Lutz is all for it (as he was for Camaro and the return of the El Camino), and he is a vice chairman, Vehicle Line Executives and divisional General Managers are free to disagree with him, and will carry the day if they have numbers to back them up.
Bob Lutz may have a gut feeling and enthusiast's feedback that says RWD is important in a small sports sedan, while Lori Queen might have studies that say that either the public is indifferent to RWD or still has weather related fears to RWD. She'd win, regardless as to what the BMW 3 series is selling.
Just to show you how easy her position is to defend and how hard Bob Lutz's is to promote, about a year ago there was a thread where I was put in the amazing position of defending RWD on this very site against a group here that was promoting FED for a particular type of car (mid size family)! And this is the LAST site where you'd expect that to happen.
There's also been plenty said (again on this very site) about how RWD is dangerous in winter and rainy weather, regardless as to how much truth it doesn't contain.
If this happens on a hard core enthusiast site like this, then imagine the uphill battle in trying to convince people at GM that a small sedan should be RWD.
