"Torana hopes still alive" - Drive.com.au
Re: "Torana hopes still alive" - Drive.com.au
Originally Posted by 2MCHPSI
To counter any questions about RWD and the issues with weather, it would be easy to solve with an RWD/AWD option, which the BMW has.
Re: "Torana hopes still alive" - Drive.com.au
Originally Posted by 91_z28_4me
Adds weight, complexity, and cost (even to the models that don't have the optional AWD).
How much difference would it really be over a FWD/AWD option?
Re: "Torana hopes still alive" - Drive.com.au
Originally Posted by 2MCHPSI
How much difference would it really be over a FWD/AWD option?
Re: "Torana hopes still alive" - Drive.com.au
Originally Posted by 91_z28_4me
I don't know but a FWD only model would be cheaper and would do better in deep snow than RWD would.
Well I was wondering because of GuionM's quote:
"Also since that time, it appears the next Cadillac BLS will go on Espilon 2's FWD/AWD chassis instead of a RWD one"
Fords research concluded that people want AWD options. BMW does very well here with a RWD/AWD option. I am guessing it would take to much money to build a RWD/AWD chassis and is easier to keep modifying an FWD one?
Re: "Torana hopes still alive" - Drive.com.au
All I can say is that GM can't make every car for every person. Sure there are markets that GM doesn't compete in, but they need to shore up their bread and butter vehicles and divisions and then start looking at what other markets they aren't in.
I love the idea of a rwd mid size sporty sedan, but it's a lot for GM to take on right now.
Personally, I think GM has concentrated way too much on trucks and SUV's thelast decade, and have left the car market lacking. They've made some great strides lately, but I fear that they should have started puting more attention on cars a while back, especially with the price of fuel these days.
Dan
I love the idea of a rwd mid size sporty sedan, but it's a lot for GM to take on right now.
Personally, I think GM has concentrated way too much on trucks and SUV's thelast decade, and have left the car market lacking. They've made some great strides lately, but I fear that they should have started puting more attention on cars a while back, especially with the price of fuel these days.
Dan
Re: "Torana hopes still alive" - Drive.com.au
While we're on the subject of AWD being a cureall for people's concerns regarding a RWD chassis via BMW, anyone want to guess the percentage of BMW cars sold here with AWD?
While we're at it, want to throw in the percentages of how many Chrysler 300s, and Dodge Magnums are sold with AWD?
(bet you guys didn't know the LXs...save the Charger... come in AWD, did ya?
)
While we're at it, want to throw in the percentages of how many Chrysler 300s, and Dodge Magnums are sold with AWD?
(bet you guys didn't know the LXs...save the Charger... come in AWD, did ya?
)
Re: "Torana hopes still alive" - Drive.com.au
Originally Posted by guionM
While we're on the subject of AWD being a cureall for people's concerns regarding a RWD chassis via BMW, anyone want to guess the percentage of BMW cars sold here with AWD?
While we're at it, want to throw in the percentages of how many Chrysler 300s, and Dodge Magnums are sold with AWD?
(bet you guys didn't know the LXs...save the Charger... come in AWD, did ya?
)
While we're at it, want to throw in the percentages of how many Chrysler 300s, and Dodge Magnums are sold with AWD?
(bet you guys didn't know the LXs...save the Charger... come in AWD, did ya?
)
BMW 3 is 25% and LX is 15%.
Re: "Torana hopes still alive" - Drive.com.au
Originally Posted by guionM
Charlie nailed it.
Although Bob Lutz is all for it (as he was for Camaro and the return of the El Camino), and he is a vice chairman, Vehicle Line Executives and divisional General Managers are free to disagree with him, and will carry the day if they have numbers to back them up.
Bob Lutz may have a gut feeling and enthusiast's feedback that says RWD is important in a small sports sedan, while Lori Queen might have studies that say that either the public is indifferent to RWD or still has weather related fears to RWD. She'd win, regardless as to what the BMW 3 series is selling.
Although Bob Lutz is all for it (as he was for Camaro and the return of the El Camino), and he is a vice chairman, Vehicle Line Executives and divisional General Managers are free to disagree with him, and will carry the day if they have numbers to back them up.
Bob Lutz may have a gut feeling and enthusiast's feedback that says RWD is important in a small sports sedan, while Lori Queen might have studies that say that either the public is indifferent to RWD or still has weather related fears to RWD. She'd win, regardless as to what the BMW 3 series is selling.
So if you ask Joe Public, he doesn't care. He cares that it's fun to drive (or has that reputation). RWD is responsible for the good driving experience, which built the reputation. So BMW sells a lot of cars due to RWD, but the people buying the car don't realize that it's the RWD that makes a BMW what it is.
I don't know how you'd pull that from a survey, however.
It's the same with styling. People like the short overhang, and axle to windshield relationship of RWD. It's not the RWD itself, but what it enables. So basing product decisions on asking Joe Public to be an auto engineer is maybe not the best strategy.
Re: "Torana hopes still alive" - Drive.com.au
Originally Posted by guionM
While we're on the subject of AWD being a cureall for people's concerns regarding a RWD chassis via BMW, anyone want to guess the percentage of BMW cars sold here with AWD?
While we're at it, want to throw in the percentages of how many Chrysler 300s, and Dodge Magnums are sold with AWD?
(bet you guys didn't know the LXs...save the Charger... come in AWD, did ya?
)
While we're at it, want to throw in the percentages of how many Chrysler 300s, and Dodge Magnums are sold with AWD?
(bet you guys didn't know the LXs...save the Charger... come in AWD, did ya?
)3 series X < 10%
LXs < 15%
Yes I did know that there were AWD LXs, JasonE mentioned it in a thread about the LXs when he first started as a sales manager at the Chrysler store. He specifically mentioned that they weren't selling well.
Re: "Torana hopes still alive" - Drive.com.au
What percentage of Trailblazer SS's are AWD? I took one for a test-drive (considered getting rid of my wife's problematic Envoy). Got caught in a heavy thunderstorm on my 10-mile drive, did enjoy the comfort of an AWD launch (would be better at the track, no?). GM has huge holes in their lineup for smaller RWD coupes and sedans (smaller than Zeta, bigger than Kappa), and in AWD vehicles. I think, with the demise of trucks and SUV's due to gas mileage concerns, there would be a strong consumer interest in AWD vehicles. The first large automaker that goes down this road stands to win customers and conquest sales, IMHO...
Re: "Torana hopes still alive" - Drive.com.au
Originally Posted by ZaphodBeeblebrox
What percentage of Trailblazer SS's are AWD? I took one for a test-drive (considered getting rid of my wife's problematic Envoy). Got caught in a heavy thunderstorm on my 10-mile drive, did enjoy the comfort of an AWD launch (would be better at the track, no?). GM has huge holes in their lineup for smaller RWD coupes and sedans (smaller than Zeta, bigger than Kappa), and in AWD vehicles. I think, with the demise of trucks and SUV's due to gas mileage concerns, there would be a strong consumer interest in AWD vehicles. The first large automaker that goes down this road stands to win customers and conquest sales, IMHO...
Agreed on all points.
Re: "Torana hopes still alive" - Drive.com.au
Originally Posted by teal98
So, what's the answer Guionm?
BMW 5 series roughly: 23%
All BMW car sales: about 20% (AWD not available on 6 and 7 series)
On the LX cars, word was only about 15%, but I want to still get the exact breakdown.
Re: "Torana hopes still alive" - Drive.com.au
More very interesting news on the Torana. Linky to drive.com.au here.
I have highlighted the interesting bits.
Very very interesting! It looks to me as if Holden are giving GM NA a big push to let Holden do this!!! The "unlikely to share its underpinnings with the VE " is interesting too.......
I have highlighted the interesting bits.
Holden considers Torana comeback
Glenn Butler, The Sydney Morning Herald, 18/08/06
Holden is looking to build a smaller sibling for Commodore, reports GLENN BUTLER.
The Holden Commodore's days as Australia's best-selling car could be numbered. Denny Mooney, Holden's managing director, has told Drive that Holden's next-generation family sedan could be smaller and lighter and powered by four- and six-cylinder engines.
It would be similar in size to the Torana TT36 hatch concept displayed at the Sydney motor show last year. And it may be in production by as early as 2010.
Rising fuel prices and a buyer swing towards smaller cars has put the concept of a mid-sized rear-wheel-drive sedan, first floated by Holden in early 2005, back on the agenda of General Motors.
"I've been saying for a long time that GM has to do a [BMW] 3 Series sedan, one that is affordable ... as I think about Holden's manufacturing plant and our future model line-up I feel strongly that having a car like that would be dynamite for us," Mooney says.
"I would be naive to sit here and say, 'Commodore will always be Holden's core product.' I should give you that answer but I'm telling you realistically that is a possibility that I wouldn't want to ignore."
Holden's Elizabeth manufacturing plant in South Australia builds about 140,000 Commodore sedans and derivatives each year for local sale and export. Holden employs 8300 workers directly and indirectly provides jobs for more than 20,000 across Australia.
However, Commodore sales are at a 12-year low and sales of large cars have been in decline for more than a decade - despite the past four years of record sales in the overall Australian market.
Mooney is keen to maintain Holden's manufacturing viability in the face of softening large-car demand. And complementing, or supplanting, Commodore production with a smaller rear-drive sedan is what he calls his "insurance policy".
"We'll get feedback from the market here on [the VE Commodore] and we'll start to decide what we want to do next ... It'll probably be six to eight months then we'll start cracking on ... Trying to get momentum [within GM] around a smaller performance sedan may depend on what happens [with VE].
"You could say 10 years from now it could become our core product. We could easily have a Vectra-sized [medium-sized], rear-wheel-drive performance sedan [as a Commodore replacement], or they could both be in the portfolio."
The vehicle would likely go up against the Honda Accord, Toyota Camry and Mazda6 and be powered by four- and six-cylinder engines. But not a V8. "As soon as you start trying to put a V8 into [the requirements] the car starts to look a lot like the [VE Commodore]," Mooney says. "So you do a four-cylinder and at a maximum a V6 and you get the packaging right. Remember, we're not looking for big because we've already got big but it's got to be a legitimate sedan."
The Torana is unlikely to share its underpinnings with the VE Commodore and it could be built here or by GM Daewoo in South Korea. "Build it here?" Mooney says. "That's a possibility. Depending on how the market shifts and if in five or six years we would have available capacity ... It depends on whether our plant is flat-out [building Commodores and derivatives] or not. If we have the capacity, we would want to build it, for a variety of reasons."
It may, however, be cheaper to build the car in Korea but Mooney did not speculate on that. "I want the car whether we build it or not."
The idea of a small rear-wheel-drive vehicle was floated by Holden with the Torana TT36 hatch concept early last year. Initially thought of as a stylistic forerunner of the VE Commodore, the concept's true significance quickly emerged.
"[Torana] did what I wanted it to do, which was create more energy inside of General Motors about thinking about doing a car like that," Mooney says.
It seems the Torana is back on the agenda. Mooney believes US acceptance of rear-wheel-drive - crucial if the vehicle is to get the green light - is growing.
"I see a lot of opportunity for GM with a smaller rear-wheel-drive performance sedan. I think it could be significant volume."
Glenn Butler, The Sydney Morning Herald, 18/08/06
Holden is looking to build a smaller sibling for Commodore, reports GLENN BUTLER.
The Holden Commodore's days as Australia's best-selling car could be numbered. Denny Mooney, Holden's managing director, has told Drive that Holden's next-generation family sedan could be smaller and lighter and powered by four- and six-cylinder engines.
It would be similar in size to the Torana TT36 hatch concept displayed at the Sydney motor show last year. And it may be in production by as early as 2010.
Rising fuel prices and a buyer swing towards smaller cars has put the concept of a mid-sized rear-wheel-drive sedan, first floated by Holden in early 2005, back on the agenda of General Motors.
"I've been saying for a long time that GM has to do a [BMW] 3 Series sedan, one that is affordable ... as I think about Holden's manufacturing plant and our future model line-up I feel strongly that having a car like that would be dynamite for us," Mooney says.
"I would be naive to sit here and say, 'Commodore will always be Holden's core product.' I should give you that answer but I'm telling you realistically that is a possibility that I wouldn't want to ignore."
Holden's Elizabeth manufacturing plant in South Australia builds about 140,000 Commodore sedans and derivatives each year for local sale and export. Holden employs 8300 workers directly and indirectly provides jobs for more than 20,000 across Australia.
However, Commodore sales are at a 12-year low and sales of large cars have been in decline for more than a decade - despite the past four years of record sales in the overall Australian market.
Mooney is keen to maintain Holden's manufacturing viability in the face of softening large-car demand. And complementing, or supplanting, Commodore production with a smaller rear-drive sedan is what he calls his "insurance policy".
"We'll get feedback from the market here on [the VE Commodore] and we'll start to decide what we want to do next ... It'll probably be six to eight months then we'll start cracking on ... Trying to get momentum [within GM] around a smaller performance sedan may depend on what happens [with VE].
"You could say 10 years from now it could become our core product. We could easily have a Vectra-sized [medium-sized], rear-wheel-drive performance sedan [as a Commodore replacement], or they could both be in the portfolio."
The vehicle would likely go up against the Honda Accord, Toyota Camry and Mazda6 and be powered by four- and six-cylinder engines. But not a V8. "As soon as you start trying to put a V8 into [the requirements] the car starts to look a lot like the [VE Commodore]," Mooney says. "So you do a four-cylinder and at a maximum a V6 and you get the packaging right. Remember, we're not looking for big because we've already got big but it's got to be a legitimate sedan."
The Torana is unlikely to share its underpinnings with the VE Commodore and it could be built here or by GM Daewoo in South Korea. "Build it here?" Mooney says. "That's a possibility. Depending on how the market shifts and if in five or six years we would have available capacity ... It depends on whether our plant is flat-out [building Commodores and derivatives] or not. If we have the capacity, we would want to build it, for a variety of reasons."
It may, however, be cheaper to build the car in Korea but Mooney did not speculate on that. "I want the car whether we build it or not."
The idea of a small rear-wheel-drive vehicle was floated by Holden with the Torana TT36 hatch concept early last year. Initially thought of as a stylistic forerunner of the VE Commodore, the concept's true significance quickly emerged.
"[Torana] did what I wanted it to do, which was create more energy inside of General Motors about thinking about doing a car like that," Mooney says.
It seems the Torana is back on the agenda. Mooney believes US acceptance of rear-wheel-drive - crucial if the vehicle is to get the green light - is growing.
"I see a lot of opportunity for GM with a smaller rear-wheel-drive performance sedan. I think it could be significant volume."


