Having driven both extensively, and owning the 6spd TL, I would have to disagree with you. Decent performance was only one reason I bought the TL. Whether it's relevant to you or not, luxury is a big deal to lots of people. As Kyle noted, the CTS is what people will cross shop when they go looking at these cars.

I shopped the Acura TL, Infiniti G35, BMW 330i & 335i, Lexus IS250/350, and CTS when I bought my TL. TL was the best value overall to me. Notice what is not on the list, despite the fact that I'd spent weeks in a GP GXP rental.

 

You don't 'have' to compare the TL to the CTS, but the fact is the very large majority of the automotive field considers them to be competitors in the entry level mid-sized performance luxury sedan field.
Granted this new 08 CTS has gotten considerably larger, and while the 09 TL will get a little larger when it is redesigned, I don't think it'll be anywhere near as big as the CTS. The new CTS is going into a strange territory - a car the size of if not slightly larger and heavier than the Lexus GS and 5-series, yet still priced and otherwise equipped to compete with the entry level lux cars.


A performance sedan is what the Grand Prix GXP is. The Acura TL is an entry level luxury performance sedan.

I would tend to say there's nothing from Honda/Acura that I'd cross-shop with the Grand Prix - especially not the GXP. Though the new 08 Accord has gotten bigger... so it may make for a more direct Grand Prix / G8 competitor based on size and price than the previous generation was - which was more of a G6 competitor than anything.

You seem to be stuck on performance. I know you own a Grand Prix GXP so like everyone on the internet you want to boast about the wonders of your car and how it's just as good as cars so much more expensive (half the people on the 'net do this these days... everyone is always barking up the next tallest tree). The TL is a *luxury* vehicle. If you really want to make a comparison to some kind of Honda, then make it to the new 08 Accord which is closer to the Grand Prix in size, is a non-luxury brand.


TL dimensions:
189.3L x 72.2w, 3623 pounds
TL base MSRP: $33,625

RL dimensions:
193.6L x 72.7w, 4018 pounds
RL base MSRP: $45,780

CTS dimensions:
190.1L x 70.6w, 3568 pounds
CTS base MSRP: $29,295

The pre-08 CTS is much closer in size and price to the TL than it is to the RL.



OK, if that makes you feel better about your Grand Prix GXP - just keep repeating that to yourself and others.

 

It's easy to notice the GXP is not on your list... but also easy to see that performance is not your priority. If it had been, you'd have gotten a TL-S. The TL has the weaker 3.2 engine with only 258 HP, less than a Grand Prix GT. If luxury is your thing, great. You can get a whiff of my V8 exhaust

Incidentally... the 2007 TL has a 5yr TCO of $53,786 - - still more than the GXP (at least it's less than the TL-S).

 

The mods need a way to just ban people from certain threads.

 

So which is it?
'entry luxury' ... now there's one of the industry's top ten abused terms of late
I can make a pretty good case that the GP GXP is an 'entry level luxury performance sedan'. Where's the Acura's TL's HUD? Three folding seats? Etc. About the only features the TL has which are missing from the GXP are Bluetooth (who cares, really?) and memory seats. Big Deal.
Whatever. I guess I am 'stuck on performance', shame on me I'll take that over a slow gilded lily any day of the week. And yes, I do maintain (and have proven) that the GP GXP is a superb value in a performance sedan, and that Honda, for all its impressive offerings, has nothing comparable.

 

You're both wrong, actually.

Threxx - the GXP and TL can be compared, even if you yourself wouldn't consider cross shopping them. If you're looking for a fast, comfortable FWD sedan, the comparably priced GXP and TL stand pretty much toe-to-toe. Sure, they are very different vehicles, and excel at different things, but that's where comparison comes in.

The Car and Driver review of the GXP indeed mentioned the TL a couple of times.

http://www.caranddriver.com/roadtest...gxp-page3.html

Bigdarknfast - As good an effort as the GXP is, it's simply not the package the TL is. It's limited by its older platform, transmission, a poor interior, and tiny rear seats (I'm amazed by how much more spacious the Epsilons are). While you may say performance is the only important priority, other factors have to come into play when you're talking about sedans, which are intrinsically practical vehicles.

I just don't understand why Pontiac expended such a terrific engineering effort on a doomed platform, and then did nothing more than dress up the G6 GXP. The G6 has infinitely more potential than the old W-Body - why not exploit it?

 

Well... there are many things in life that you should do but don't HAVE to do.

But excellent job of dodging the point completely, nonetheless.

HUD? Nobody uses HUD but GM. Million dollar cars still don't have HUD. I guess the GP more luxury than them too, right? Three folding seats? Is 60/40 not enough? Since when did this become a class-determining factor?


Regardless, expecting to find a significant difference in feature content when going down an options list of two different classes of vehicles these days is expecting too much. In a day and age where you can get many economy cars with high performance motors and suspension, leather, navigation, 5/6-speed automatic transmissions, premium stereo systems, heated seats, stability control, and even xenon headlights - there's often not many differences at all when looking at the features list.

Determining vehicle class by comparing checkmarks on a flat-file 2-dimensional features list just doesn't work these days or you'd have people believing that some 20k dollar cars are in the same class as some 70k dollar cars.

Which almost by default means you shouldn't even be in this thread unless you were looking to argue because Honda and Toyota are not the first place anyone should look if performance for the dollar is their number one priority.

No, you've proven that Honda doesn't offer a car with comparable performance for a comparable price in the 2007 model year. That's all you've proven. Oh, and you've proven that the Accord with a comparable price to the GP has a significantly less TCO, while the TL with a significantly higher purchase price has a slightly higher TCO. No surprises here.

 

Sure, you chose the lesser car. I know you need to belittle me to feel better about your inferior choice.

I wasn't up for an extra $6500 (since I got the '06 6spd TL Navi for $31500 out the door) for the TL-S for an extra .2 sec in 1/4 mile time- not that I race the car anyway. I drive to work. I wanted a stick. For all out performance in a sedan, I'd have gotten the 335i over any of them, but I start to cringe at around $33k. It's my inner jew- I can't help it. Kyle understands.

I'm gonna have to look into the total cost of ownership thing. I also have a 2002 TL-S, bought new in May 2001. The new car is better in every way except trunk space, BTW. In those 6.5 years of ownership, I've shelled out-

$31300 for the car (new model at the time, no real discount)
$2696 in upkeep- this includes a new set of Michelin Pilots, syn oil changes since new, new brakes all around, burnt out HID (OUCH!), and a bad trunk lid solenoid. I'm a little disappointed with the reliability overall, because at 75k miles, I don't think the brakes and trunk opener should have been bad. HID was my fault.

The car is currently worth over $13k according to Edmunds private party.

So it has cost me $18k in 6.5 years. I can't say I'm displeased, although if TCO was my bottom line, driving a $30k+ luxury brand means that I suck at math.

Should I be adding in gas costs and insurance to the mix to get near that ridiculous $53k number?

EDIT: TL has not had rear folding seats for a long time (since at least 99, maybe before). Neither of mine do- just that tiny pass-through thing rear center. Which, BTW, is large enough to fit 9 8-ft 2x4s into.

 

Yah... What does BMW know anyway? ( http://wheeltalk.fancal.net/?p=928 ).
This is close to the point I was trying to make. Lots of cars are well-equipped nowadays with 'luxury'. That to me, is part of why it seems silly to include some, but exclude others, as 'entry-lux'. It can't be just by price either though. (It's going to be entertaining when the G8 comes out... watching certain folks try to classify it )
The thread solicited opinions on the Accord. I've given... a few
It sounds like you've had good luck with your TL. You're happy with the car, and don't mind getting passed now and then by GXP's. That's perfectly fine! But I'd suggest waiting an entire five years AFTER 2006, before counting all the marbles of your TL ownership experience. TCO data is based on actual figures from the industry, and chances are, if it says you will need to spend $5k on maintenance and repairs in that 5 yr, well then statistically that is the most likely value. Some will fare better, some worse
Yes - it's part of costs isn't it? And just as another example, the TL-S owner will spend $3k MORE than the GP GXP owner on insurance in those five years

 

Yeah, I agree with that at least

This thread has been interesting, if only because the TL is going to be around next year and the Grand Prix isn't. IMO, the GP missed the mark in a number of ways -- particularly in the interior. I think GM is being smart by positioning the G8 closer, if not in, that Entry Lux market, and people will be a lot more likely to cross-shop them with the Acura and so on.

 

Well, you pay for gas with any vehicle you buy, and the GXP gets worse mileage than the TL, so that's of no interest to me.
I'm not sure how I pay $3000 more for insurance on a TL than a GXP. I only pay $750/year for the TL-S, and $800/yr for the new TL. In order to save $3000 in 5 years, the GXP insurance would have to be $150/year. Uh, no. Maybe Jersey rates skew the numbers.
Maybe you misunderstand- I own 2 TLs. One 2002 TL-S, and a 2006 TL.
And, $5000 in maintenance in 5 years would be tough to do on any car that has a 4 year, 50k bumper-bumper warranty. There's just no way that happens. If it did, the car would get a horrible reputation, and the resale value would reflect that.

 

That was the TL-S that I quoted, see above. And the edmunds TCO numbers are AVERAGES, not 'numbers just for you and your own life'.
Again. These are AVERAGES. Not your numbers for just your car! How about the driver who drives 24k miles per year, like me? Heck even an average driver, at 15k miles/yr, will exceed such a warranty in four years. Then... watch out.

 

Before BigDarknFast corrupted this thread with his "rational", wasn't this thread at one point in time about the Accord?

 

Yes it was.

In other threads, he seems very quick to support first-hand internet posts as hard and fast evidence when it puts a foreign automaker in a bad light (such as Toyota) but he quickly denegrates the same type of post if it says anyting positive about a foreign manufacturer (in this case, Honda) and then in this case, he went on to argue about vehicles the thread was not about; apparently to make himself feel good about his vehicle choice.

Every vehicle has its positives and negatives, be it an Accord, an Acura TL or a Grand Prix - one size does not fit all and each person's reason for picking one vehicle over another is as different as each individual and that doesn't make their choice wrong or stupid or make one car "better" than another...some people just can't seem to grasp that.

 

I feel fine about my vehicle choice (but thanks for your concern Doc ). And gee, it's too bad, some of the import fans on this site have trouble dealing with uncomfortable facts. (Deal with it!) But it's useful at this point - to recall the post that began this thread:

The thread starter did raise some good points - and it's difficult to deny that Honda has had quite a success with the Accord, a success that will almost certainly continue with the (somewhat bland) new model. However it wasn't me who first compared the Accord to a high-performance Grand Prix (again... SEE ABOVE ). So my mention of the Acura TL-S is directly related to this discussion. Why is there no Accord sedan 'performance' variant? THAT is a hole in Honda's lineup - intentional no doubt - which is filled in a mediocre way by the TL-S.